considering how poor the sales of games that has Denuvo sewned into them, I think the message to those game companies are crystal clear but pretend not to admit their incompetence in making a good game, instead... all they did was to please their investors who have no interests in the public's opinions but their own. *cough*EA*cough* is one good example thou... All in all, cracking an anti-tampering software is nothing new here. Again, the biggest losers here are not those who downloaded the cracked game but the ones who bought the game legitimately & playing it.

RejZoR@JcRabbit
There is no evidence that pirated copy encourages purchase just as pirated copy doesn't mean loss of revenue/income.

Actually there is, and I have first hand experience of it.

As the article I linked to also discusses, there is no doubt that an otherwise obscure game can, in some ways, be helped by the word of mouth generated because of software piracy. But the question is: at which point does the positive effects of that initial word of mouth becomes offset by the negative effects of software piracy? And what about AAA games that need no word of mouth resulting from piracy in the first place?

Also, there is direct evidence (seriously, read the article, it's worth it) that software piracy leads to loss of revenue.

What is very difficult in both cases, if not downright impossible, is to *quantify* by how much. But we can be certain that both cases have a measurable impact.

RejZoR@JcRabbitPiracy was one of only means of even obtaining games years ago for me and kids mostly do it because they have no purchasing power. I mean, how many parents would pay 60€ for endless supplies of games to kids? Not many. But pirated copies could be obtained no questions asked from parents and no whining for wallet/credit card..

I sympathize with that, I really do: we've all been there.

But we're grown ups now, with jobs, responsibilities and bills to pay. We know what the cost of living is and understand what makes society tick and that people need to be paid for their efforts, because otherwise NOTHING would work.

Seeing grown people defending and rationalizing what is obviously wrong (not talking about you!) is thus quite sad.

RejZoRFast forward 2+ decades and I've basically purchased almost all games I've had pirated in the past. A lot of them I still haven't played yet, but I've bought them because I have my own income now, I don't have to justify it to anyone (parents) and it just felt like a right thing to do. I also haven't pirated a single game for ages thanks to my own income and global availability of games via Steam/GOG and the likes. And because I value honesty despite pirating circumstances from the past, I insist buying from GOG whenever possible. They respect me with zero DRM policy and I respect their trust by never sharing any of installers with anyone, even though you can easily just copy them with USB drive or upload them somewhere.

My hat off to you, RejZoR, and I hope more people start sharing your attitude. You understood that what you were doing was wrong and you took steps to correct it.

If everyone thought like you, there would be no software piracy (or at least it would be meaningless enough) and therefore no need for nasty stuff like DRM.

RejZoRGOG is well aware people pirate their games still, but they keep on building with zero DRM trust policy and huge number of people greatly appreciate and respect that. Me included. For me, knowing games will work for unforeseeable future without having to botch therm with cracks is what is most important. I mean, I still play NFS3 from 1998 here and there which we had to hack on our own to play today...

This is what I meant when I wrote above that attitudes must be changed by peer/social pressure until those positive changes are internalized. It's a bit like seat belts in cars: there was a public uproar when those started being enforced all those years ago (it interferes with personal freedom, etc...) but now we all understand the benefits and nobody needs to tell us to put on a seatbelt when we get into a car - it is automatic.

Unfortunately there's still a lot of people convinced that taking advantage of others makes THEM smarter than all the rest who follow the rules, and also those who don't fully realize what they are doing. It is there that the change with the most impact must first take place, i.e.; in mentalities. Until then, all we have is copy protection and DRM.

Places like GOG can only exist because the attitude towards software piracy is slowly, but surely, changing.

@JcRabbit Citing, misquoting and misunderstanding a single article from Tweakguides as a basis of argument is vapid at very best. Your statements speak volume for themselves and clear illustrate the flawed viewpoint of the issuer. There is no real need to respond to each.

Will say this though, I have fought the good fight and won against a large software maker. I known from where I speak and have no problems modding, or "cracking", software to make it run the way it's needed. It is everyone's right to do the same. You paid for it, you have the right to use it as you see fit within the boundaries of person use. End of story, full stop.

GOG exists because people are tired of DRM crap and because people refuse to accept any concept other that full ownership rights. That perspective is growing and will soon be the predominant viewpoint. Piracy of software on GOG is mere fractions of what it is anywhere else. Minimal problem. DRM is a dated and archaic concept. It is equally useless.

TPU does not advocate piracy.

Piracy is theft.

Those advocating piracy are advocating theft.

Those advocating theft on TPU will be punished accordingly.

Disclaimer: I have published media. I have had said media pirated. Until you have been in this position, don't even bother pretending to claim to know the "little" damage piracy does.

RCoonDisclaimer: I have published media. I have had said media pirated. Until you have been in this position, don't even bother pretending to claim to know the "little" damage piracy does.

And that pretty much sums it up, really. :)

lexluthermiester@JcRabbit Citing, misquoting and misunderstanding a single article from Tweakguides as a basis of argument is vapid at very best. Your statements speak volume for themselves and clear illustrate the flawed viewpoint of the issuer. There is no real need to respond to each.

Of course not, nice convenient cop-out, especially after accusing ME of not debating your points lol.

Also, saying something is so does not automatically make it so - all the counter arguments to your own arguments defending piracy are already in that very well researched article, so no point in re-inventing the wheel. You don't like it, though luck. :)

I did not misquote anything and the links to the source are there for all to see.

lexluthermiesterI known from where I speak and have no problems modding, or "cracking", software to make it run the way it's needed. It is everyone's right to do the same. You paid for it, you have the right to use it as you see fit within the boundaries of person use. End of story, full stop.

Personally I have no problem whatsoever with you cracking software AS LONG AS IT IS FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE. I never said I had a problem with that - what I did say and continue to say is that DISTRIBUTING or making that crack available to other people already IS an offense. When you do that it no longer is in the realms of 'fair use' but in the realms of criminal activity and facilitating criminal activity.

RCoonTPU does not advocate piracy.
Piracy is theft.
Those advocating piracy are advocating theft.
Those advocating theft on TPU will be punished accordingly.
Disclaimer: I have published media. I have had said media pirated. Until you have been in this position, don't even bother pretending to claim to know the "little" damage piracy does.

Those people made a conscious decision not to buy your media. Trying to claim anything else is a circular argument with no end.

Back to the topic at hand: I hope this makes publishers think twice about using Denuvo. If they have to sue someone instead of offering new protection schemes it doesn't sound good for them.

The closest I came to anything resembling piracy was when a guy I jammed with once was at a party and claimed that the songs he was playing were his. They were mine. I understand intellectual property rights. It pissed me off. It's not some "illusion" or anything to me.

I just hate being inconvenienced (or practically shut out) when DRM goes overboard. So I still say they get what they deserve.. just for punishing everyone with their measures.

Prince ValiantThose people made a conscious decision not to buy your media.

Let me rephrase that so we can call a spade a spade: "those people made a conscious decision to steal from him".

Because that is what everyone who pirated his media did and what HE felt they did to him.

Kind of the same way you would feel is someone robbed your pay check after a hard days work.

JcRabbitLet me rephrase that so we can call a spade a spade: "those people made a conscious decision to steal from him".

Because that is what everyone who pirated his media did and what HE felt they did to him.

Kind of the same way you would feel is someone robbed your pay check after a hard days work.

I'm not defending anything here so ease off. That someone decided not to buy it is the only thing that can be proven without people either admitting they pirated it or a massive invasion of privacy.

You can't kill piracy that easily, There's no purpose in finding these people and taking it to court, sure they will win but the piracy community is huge and will continue to grow thanks to overpriced titles from AAA games and DLC crap. I'm not supporting it since these people need food on the table but companies (EA in particular) need to find a way of being consumer friendly and not refreshing titles and adding a tons of in-game purchases.

Prince ValiantI'm not defending anything here so ease off.

Apologies if it came across like that, it wasn't meant to. Just trying to explain what it feels like.

Xx Tek Tip xXThere's no purpose in finding these people and taking it to court, sure they will win but the piracy community is huge and will continue to grow thanks to overpriced titles from AAA games and DLC crap.

Oh, don't underestimate the power of putting a few key players in prison. People start thinking twice when they themselves have something to lose.

Xx Tek Tip xXcompanies (EA in particular) need to find a way of being consumer friendly and not refreshing titles and adding a tons of in-game purchases.

As for the likes of EA, vote with your wallets. Don't buy their games, but don't pirate them either. Doing the latter is being hypocritical.

The more likely takeaway for crackers is not to be vocal about it.

JcRabbitApologies if it came across like that, it wasn't meant to. Just trying to explain what it feels like.



Oh, don't underestimate the power of putting a few key players in prison. People start thinking twice when they themselves have something to lose.

Since when? This basic struggle has been going on for years.. in different shapes and forms. It hasn't deterred anything. Hackers existed after Mitnick.. and Dark Web trading exists after Silk Road.

You could even just take it out of the digital realm and say the same thing. All my particular country got out of the Drug War or "Three Strikes and You're Out" laws is just bigger prisons and more broken families. And no deterrance of the same type of criminals.

JcRabbitAlso, there is direct evidence (seriously, read the article, it's worth it) that software piracy leads to loss of revenue.

Uh huh, the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs to use Denovo. There is no evidence that money is recovered by converting pirates. Pirates know they can just wait a while and get the game for free anyway.

How piracy led to GOG encouraging DRM-free releases

Piotr KarwowskiThere's no way to fight piracy with DRMs. I don't think there was any title which was not pirated.

Let's pretend that the DRM in a game is perfect and completely undefeatable (never going to happen). What do the pirates do?

a) They buy the game anyway because they were on the fence but leaning towards buy in the first place. This group was always going to be a customer. It was just a matter of price. Publishers can lose money here because those same customers may be willing to pay full retail if they knew the game was good by experiencing it. Because demoing it was denied to them, they pay what they think it is worth rather than what they know it is worth (often substantially less). Demonstrating this point:
Removal of restrictions can decrease music piracy, study suggests

Rice UniversityThe research challenges conventional wisdom that removal of DRM restrictions increases piracy levels; the study shows that piracy can actually decrease when a company allows restriction-free downloads.

b) They never play the game so no sell is ever made nor is word of mouth advertising that they generate. This group represents lost revenue/marketing for the publisher. Demonstrating this point:
David Pogue Weighs In On Ebook DRM: Non-DRM'd Ebook Increased His Sales

David PogueWhen I wrote about my concerns a year ago, my readers took me to task. "For all you know," went their counterargument, "the illegal copies are just advertising for you; people will download them, try them out, then go by the physical book. Either that, or they're being downloaded by people who would not have bought your book anyway. Why don't you try a controlled experiment and see?"

Well, it sounded like it could be a very costly experiment. But I agreed. My publisher, O'Reilly, decided to try an experiment, offering one of my Windows books for sale as an unprotected PDF file.

After a year, we could compare the results with the previous year's sales.

The results? It was true. The thing was pirated to the skies. It's all over the Web now, ridiculously easy to download without paying.

The crazy thing was, sales of the book did not fall. In fact, sales rose slightly during that year.

Think of pirate copies as self-propagating advertising. As long as the consumer knows it is pirated (this is hugely a problem in the developing world) those pirate copies can convert to sales. Only sales should matter to a company selling digital goods. All studies point to more copies (illegal and legal) is better: DRM doesn't translate to more sales. Depending on context, DRM can translate to worse sales. How many people didn't buy Spore because of SecuROM 7? How many people didn't buy SimCity because of it's restrictive online-only model? How many people didn't buy Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory because Star-Force prohibited it running on 64-bit operating systems? How many sales do companies lose by using DRM that restricts them to just Windows (like Denuvo) so there is no Linux/Mac OS X sales?

Fear of the unknown drives developers and publishers to companies like Dunuvo and Sony DADC. It's the same fear that inspires people to lock their doors at night.

JcRabbitApologies if it came across like that, it wasn't meant to. Just trying to explain what it feels like.



Oh, don't underestimate the power of putting a few key players in prison. People start thinking twice when they themselves have something to lose.



As for the likes of EA, vote with your wallets. Don't buy their games, but don't pirate them either. Doing the latter is being hypocritical.

Your off the point, Those key players may be jailed but more will pile up. It's like putting 10 key drug dealers in jail, Thousands will still do it. The solution is simple, Blocking the access to their suppliers, jailing those who supply it means it's less accessible. The solution in this case is to keep toughening security on the applications and taking down pirate sites supplying the content.

JcRabbitDRM, however, is a CONSEQUENCE of software piracy and does not invalidate that pirating and cracking software IS wrong.

Bro, pirating and cracking are two different but related things like lockpicking and burglary stop lumping them together.

Also by this logic you are saying opening up anything you have and altering, repairing, or simply just to see how it works is wrong? Answer is no, it's not. It's well within a manufacturer or developer's rights to take measure to impede or make difficult to get into places where they don't want the end consumer to get into or use other than intended, but it is also well within the rights of the consumer deconstruct/modify as long as they are doing it for personal or monetary gain.

Like I said, this goes beyond computers. To think even just messing around with machines and cracking is a bad thing in and of itself is kind of a strange opinion to hear on a site like this. Just about every self-respecting guy is a tinkerer of some sort. Computers are just one outlet. But many guys screw around with their cars, or houses, guns, or their freaking lawnmowers.. or something. To only view things through a legal lens is too damned civilized for my tastes. :p

And I'm not even an advocate for piracy. I just hate this particular line of argumentation.

edit: Maybe "legal lens" isn't the right way to put it either. But just identifying yourself (let alone wanting EVERYONE else to identify) as purely and simply a consumer. As someone who just consumes and takes in things.. and doesn't do anything with them more than that. Like that's your only role in life. No individuality.. with you or the things you apparently own.

JcRabbitOf course not, nice convenient cop-out, especially after accusing ME of not debating your points lol.

No, I desided it's not worth the time & energy to argue with you. I know I'm right on these points and there is no changing your mind. Not worth the effort to try.

FordGT90ConceptHow many people didn't buy SimCity because of it's restrictive online-only model?

Excellent point. I love the SimCity games. Completely skipped that version though. Even after a "mod" was released, it simply wasn't worth the money or effort when there are other, better games to play.

I'm with the rest of the DRM hating crowd. Even though Steam is DRM itself, I found it great because at least I didn't have to swap physical discs anymore... I went so far as to make ISO images of the discs and mount them to a virtual drive just so I wouldn't have to do that in the past.

Also, I find that at least for me, the argument that game piracy leads to sales rings true. I've pirated lots of games that I turned around and bought on Steam, because I thought it was worth it. I probably wouldn't have bought them without that "demo", because I either wouldn't have known about them or wouldn't have had any interest. That also led to future sales of further iterations of the series. For example, Stalker Call of Pripyat didn't get a second thought. I bought it immediately on launch day.

If game developers didn't make crap
Or use CRAP DRM people might buy their games.

Or if they released Demos like the by gone years people would see its a cut copy job the same as the other 3 zillion games out there...

The problem is many games are the same as others and there are no demos.
So whats the next logical step to seeing if a game is anygood...

Then there is Denuvo which ears one or two of your CPU cores makes your system run like crap and the game run like crap.

cyneaterIf game developers didn't make crap
Or use CRAP DRM people might buy their games.

Or if they released Demos like the by gone years people would see its a cut copy job the same as the other 3 zillion games out there...

The problem is many games are the same as others and there are no demos.
So whats the next logical step to seeing if a game is anygood...

Then there is Denuvo which ears one or two of your CPU cores makes your system run like crap and the game run like crap.

Some do release demos.. you just gotta specifically look for them on Steam. It's actually the smaller/indie type of games where you wouldn't find that... afaik.

RCoonTPU does not advocate piracy.

Piracy is theft.

Those advocating piracy are advocating theft.

Those advocating theft on TPU will be punished accordingly.

Disclaimer: I have published media. I have had said media pirated. Until you have been in this position, don't even bother pretending to claim to know the "little" damage piracy does.

I have had media reused without permission... it is still not theft... it is copyright infringement... don't be fake news.

Seems like we're getting caught up in semantics at this point. Pirate still walks away with product without paying the creator for said product. Pirate gets free item, creator loses a sale. Still seems a lot like theft. While I won't outright ignore the "lighter side" to piracy, as has been covered already, the straight up theft kind does still occur. That said, I still don't think DRM is the way to go... it's just a pain in the ass for legit users and doesn't seem to affect pirates much. Case in point: someone mentioned the trials and tribulations of playing a legit blu-ray disc on PC... big pain in the ass, isn't it? But I can go and find that same movie on some pirate site somewhere and play it with any regular media player software, no problem... that DRM sure did a lot, didn't it? It screwed over the guy trying to play a legit disc on his PC, but it didn't stop me from getting it from some warez site and playing it. DRM only serves to punish legit users and doesn't even stop pirates.

What's so bad about Microsoft's approach? Or others who followed suit.. i.e. The CD-Key/Activation scheme. That's enough to ward off the average pirate. Anything more than that is pretty invasive it seems.

Not sure how to handle movies, but music wise, it seems like whatever Spotify is doing, they've come out on top. Services like this pretty much made music downloading irrelevant in my eyes.. personally (legit or piracy).

StrayKATWhat's so bad about Microsoft's approach? Or others who followed suit.. i.e. The CD-Key/Activation scheme. That's enough to ward off the average pirate. Anything more than that is pretty invasive it seems.

Not sure how to handle movies, but music wise, it seems like whatever Spotify is doing, they've come out on top. Services like this pretty much made music downloading irrelevant in my eyes.. personally (legit or piracy).

Throwing it in the trash where DRM belongs :p? Not many people have disc drives at all these days, let alone a BD drive. If copy protection got removed from BDs I doubt it'd affect anything other than making customers happier.

I think it all stems from the companies wanting absolute control and having a scapegoat to throw at shareholders. We've seen how long it's taken them to accept streaming services and they still have issues with region blocks.