Prince ValiantThrowing it in the trash where DRM belongs :p? Not many people have disc drives at all these days, let alone a BD drive. If copy protection got removed from BDs I doubt it'd affect anything other than making customers happier.

I think it all stems from the companies wanting absolute control and having a scapegoat to throw at shareholders. We've seen how long it's taken them to accept streaming services and they still have issues with region blocks.

I have a BD drive.. a 4k BD drive sadly (which is a pain in the ass to even get to work). But yeah, I understand it's niche. I would just toss it, if it didn't have cool writing capabilities. I don't make much use of it, but it can burn 100GB BD-XL discs. Which is cool just to say I have it, I guess lol.

hatSeems like we're getting caught up in semantics at this point. Pirate still walks away with product without paying the creator for said product. Pirate gets free item, creator loses a sale. Still seems a lot like theft. While I won't outright ignore the "lighter side" to piracy, as has been covered already, ...

The assumption of a lost sale has already been disproven multiple times... even by personal sales of a commenter on this thread. This thread is off the rails and ended about piracy and not drm and reverse engineering and the right to fair use being blocked by drm and DMCA. The right to use what you paid for is enabled by the cracking of drm. Otherwise when their servers go down, your purchase is no longer able to be used... THAT is theft.

PatriotThe assumption of a lost sale has already been disproven multiple times... even by personal sales of a commenter on this thread.

Correct, and I myself am one of those commentators you've mentioned, who has previously pirated something and then since bought it. However, even I can't pretend that people exist who pirate stuff and then still don't buy it.

PatriotThis thread is off the rails and ended about piracy and not drm and reverse engineering and the right to fair use being blocked by drm and DMCA. The right to use what you paid for is enabled by the cracking of drm. Otherwise when their servers go down, your purchase is no longer able to be used... THAT is theft.

And I'm completely against any type of DRM. However, I'm sure you'll find some legal mumbo jumbo somewhere that says you can buy a game, then the servers go down, leaving said game which you bought unusable, and that's completely fine.

Here's a good example of something like that. And one of our favorite players (EA) is involved! So, Battlefield 2142 was released, and many gamers had fun fighting a virtual futuristic war for some time. Then, the servers (Gamespy) went down, and the game was effectively dead in the water. A certain community arises to counter this, offering an installer which redirects the usual connection to the Gamespy servers to their own, enabling people to play the game again. EA had clearly given up on the game; they made no effort to keep it running when the Gamespy servers shut down, but after the alternate servers were running for so long, EA put an end to it (at least that specific iteration) because they also offered the full game files, citing copyright infringement or somesuch nonsense.

StrayKATWhat's so bad about Microsoft's approach? Or others who followed suit.. i.e. The CD-Key/Activation scheme.

It limits a users rights in many situations.

StrayKATThat's enough to ward off the average pirate.

No it isn't. Windows is still very easy to crack.

StrayKATI don't make much use of it, but it can burn 100GB BD-XL discs.

Have the same kinda of drive, of the M-Disc variety. Actually use mine though for data backups of various types. Don't use it for movies.

lexluthermiesterIt limits a users rights in many situations.

No it isn't. Windows is still very easy to crack.

Well, it would ward me off at least. And I consider myself savvy. Anyone who wants to go any further almost should get a pat on the back for being such a determined cunt. Can't even pay for Windows. lol

StrayKATWell, it would ward me off at least. And I consider myself savvy. Anyone who wants to go any further almost should get a pat on the back for being such a determined cunt. Can't even pay for Windows. lol

I pay for my copies of Windows. Literally have dozens of COA's and install discs. However there are two of them that have been black-listed by MS. Called to activate and they refuse to explain why or replace them with non-black listed COA's. These are legit product's. So I have little recourse other than to "self-activate". Couldn't care less at this point what the reasoning is, they are my copies of Windows and I have the lawful right to use them. MS wants to deny? Fine by me, I'll use them anyway. Eff them.

lexluthermiesterI pay for my copies of Windows. Literally have dozens of COA's and install discs. However there are two of them that have been black-listed by MS. Called to activate and they refuse to explain why or replace them with non-black listed COA's. These are legit product's. So I have little recourse other than to "self-activate". Couldn't care less at this point what the reasoning is, they are my copies of Windows and I have the lawful right to use them. MS wants to deny? Fine by me, I'll use them anyway. Eff them.

That's fair. Personally, it sucks that I can't reuse certain OEM copies I've had on other machines. Their only use after awhile is to be thrown away. That's pretty stupid.

I'm just talking about people who'd go out of their way pirating it from scratch.

StrayKATThat's fair. Personally, it sucks that I can't reuse certain OEM copies I've had on other machines. Their only use after awhile is to be thrown away. That's pretty stupid.

I would and have used them anyway. As long as they're only being used on one system, it is your right.

StrayKATI'm just talking about people who'd go out of their way pirating it from scratch.

And there is a fair amount of it that happens, but there are far more legitimate owners using "self-activation" and straight up "arr-matey" copies then MS wants to admit and all because MS leaves us no other choice. Activation as DRM does not work. It is invasive, seriously inconvenient and creates more problems then it could possibly ever solve.

lexluthermiesterI would and have used them anyway. As long as they're only being used on one system, it is your right.

And there is a fair amount of it that happens, but there are far more legitimate owners using "self-activation" and straight up "arr-matey" copies then MS wants to admit and all because MS leaves us no other choice. Activation as DRM does not work. It is invasive, seriously inconvenient and creates more problems then it could possibly ever solve.

You can't, if switching from one radically different system to another (especially motherboard changes, of course).

I stopped making that mistake though, and bought retail.

StrayKATYou can't, if switching from one radically different system to another (especially motherboard changes, of course).

Sure you can. When you call MS to activate, they ask if it is only being used on one system. As long as that is true, they activate it for you.

StrayKATI stopped making that mistake though, and bought retail.

Those black-list COA's I mentioned? Both retail.

rtwjunkieI’m with you, don’t like DRM one bit. But to claim that a game having drm is because it is a bad game is lunacy. A bad game is what makes a game bad, not the wrapping. Plenty of good games have unfortunately had DRM.

As to Hellblade, Ninja Theory is far from an unknown company.

I may have put too much cream on the cake by saying EVERY GAME with a drm is bad, sorry about that.

But I never heard of Ninja Theory before. I might be a lil uncultured swine :P.

Unfortunately (or not?) they've been acquired by M$ recently. I'm curious about what will change for them. I really really loved Hellblade. In my top5 easily.

altcapwnI may have put too much cream on the cake by saying EVERY GAME with a drm is bad, sorry about that.

But I never heard of Ninja Theory before. I might be a lil uncultured swine :p.

Unfortunately (or not?) they've been acquired by M$ recently. I'm curious about what will change for them. I really really loved Hellblade. In my top5 easily.

They're not a cultured company per se. They started on consoles and made Heavenly Sword and Enslaved (Enslaved is on PC.. but Heavenly Sword was sadly a PS3 exclusive).

altcapwnUnfortunately (or not?) they've been acquired by M$ recently. I'm curious about what will change for them.

Nothing good, I’m sure. Hellblade only was able to happen because they chose to self publish it. They lived on basically nothing for 2 years and not having a developer breathing down their neck and demanding things which make no sense. Microsoft won’t give them that freedom.

I see you looked them up! I guess you at least recognized some of their games? :D

@StrayKAT dont forget Devil May Cry.

rtwjunkieNothing good, I’m sure. Hellblade only was able to happen because they chose to self publish it, lives no on basically nothing for 2 years and not having a developer breathing down their neck and demanding things which make no sense. Microsoft won’t give them that freedom.

I see you looked them up! I guess you at least recognized some of their games? :D

Microsoft is one of the better publishers around imo. They don't get enough credit for it.

Microsoft is as bad as EA for buying IP and burying them. The only good thing Microsoft does is license IPs they own to developers to make games (MechWarrior, BattleTech, Shadowrun). For every license they grant though, a dozen waste away abandoned.

Microsoft also made a lot of games that were formerly on Windows, Xbox exclusive. Then they do things like lie about Halo and XP compatibility trying to force sales of Vista to play it when all they did was implement an OS check in the game (easily removed/faked).

Considering Microsoft's track record, this is the beginning of the end of Ninja Theory. I have no idea what Microsoft gets out of the deal.


There's really only two publishers I have nothing bad to say about: CD Projekt and Nightdive Studios.

FordGT90ConceptMicrosoft is as bad as EA for buying IP and burying them. The only good thing Microsoft does is license IPs they own to developers to make games (MechWarrior, BattleTech, Shadowrun). For every license they grant though, a dozen waste away abandoned.

I don't see many examples of them burying much of anything. Everything under the first party category is recently active. They even issued all of Rare's old stuff.. then gave them freedom to make Sea of Thieves. Forza is still kicking, of course. Age of Empires got a recent remaster. Minecraft is actively developed. They have a keen interest as well in promoting unknown gems and smaller studios (ala Ori and Cuphead). They'll do anything to get attention and try to add value to the Xbox especially, in order to compete with Sony. Destroying things doesn't play to their interests at all.

In fact, I'd say the only recent tragedy with MS games is Halo... and it has nothing to do with MS. Bungie went their own way.

Starlancer/Freelancer is dead (Digital Anvil). Black & White is dead (Lionhead). Fable is dead (Lionhead). The Movies is dead (Lionhead). MechCommander is dead (FASA). Crimson Skies is dead (FASA). Rare has been relegated to mostly just Xbox exclusives since acquisition (after finishing up outstanding contracts), abandoning their roots in Nintendo IPs; from an AAA developer in the 1990s, they're probably not even B today.

At the time of Lionhead's acquisition by Microsoft, ports of Black & White to various platforms were axed in favor of keeping it Microsoft ecosystem exclusive. Microsoft clearly bought Lionhead for the Fable IP (to counter Zelda games from Nintendo) which Microsoft literally beat to death.

In addition to Ninja Theory (Enslaved and Hellblade), Microsoft bought out Undead Labs (State of Decay), Compulsion Games (We Happy Few), and Playground Games (Forza Horizon).

FordGT90ConceptStarlancer/Freelancer is dead. Black & White is dead. Fable is dead. MechCommander is dead (although BattleTech is similar). Crimson Skies is dead. Rare has been relegated to mostly just Xbox exclusives since acquisition (after finishing up outstanding contracts), abandoning their roots in Nintendo IPs; from an AAA developer in the 1990s, they're probably not even B today. The Movies is dead.

At the time of Lionhead's acquisition by Microsoft, ports of Black & White to various platforms were axed in favor of keeping it Microsoft ecosystem exclusive. Microsoft clearly bought Lionhead for the Fable IP which Microsoft literally beat to death.

In addition to Ninja Theory (Enslaved and Hellblade), Microsoft bought out Undead Labs (State of Decay), Compulsion Games (We Happy Few), and Playground Games (Forza Horizon).

Starlancer is Chris Roberts... that's why it's dead. Microsoft had to twist his arm even to release those. lol. They're nothing like what he promised.. especially Freelancer, which is a piece of shit. It was meant to be his big MMO thing before Star Citizen. It's his own fault it never amounted to anything. And it's why people are trying to sue him now.. because they're now dealing with the same thing big publishers once did.

Microsoft bought out Digital Anvil and took Chris Roberts off the project (2000) half way through Freelancer development (1997 and released in 2003). Freelancer is one of the best games of the early 2000s.

FordGT90ConceptMicrosoft bought out Digital Anvil and took Chris Roberts off the project (2000) half way through Freelancer development (1997 and released in 2003). Freelancer is one of the best games of the early 2000s.

Biggest disappointment maybe. You sure you're not being nostalgic? It played like a Tempest knockoff.. like literally, it had the same kind of shoot em up feel as an old arcade game.. and not at all the cat and mouse aspect of a dogfighting game that I expected from him or from space shooters in general. Not to mention all of the world building stuff was removed.. not only was it stripped from it's MMO roots, but it didn't have much of the outside-cockpit life he promised either. And if you've ever played Wing Commander, I'd suggest it. That's what I'd call a great series and when he was on top of his game :)

edit: I should also add that Shadowrun deserved to die. It was meant as a cheap addition to Xbox Live.. a sad fate for such a great franchise. Multiplayer shooter Shadowrun? Really? I'm just glad the actual creator got involved with digital games and made those RPGs we have now. It's what it should have been to begin with.

I probably beat it three times (once with a friend) so no, not nostalgic. There's really only two bad things about the game: 1) the world is stale after the campaign ends (places that were easy remain easy and places that were hard remain hard--there's no scaling) and 2) there is virtually no side missions/objectives because all that content was cut by Microsoft in the name of shipping it. The campaign and combat were fantastic; Star Citizen will be doing fantastic if it even comes to half of Freelancer in those regards.

FordGT90ConceptThere's really only two publishers I have nothing bad to say about: CD Projekt and Nightdive Studios.

Agreed. Both of them have hit the right cords with me as well.

FordGT90ConceptI probably beat it three times (once with a friend) so no, not nostalgic. There's really only two bad things about the game: 1) the world is stale after the campaign ends (places that were easy remain easy and places that were hard remain hard--there's no scaling) and 2) there is virtually no side missions/objectives because all that content was cut by Microsoft in the name of shipping it. The campaign and combat were fantastic; Star Citizen will be doing fantastic if it even comes to half of Freelancer in those regards.

Yeah, I don't understand that. It was a big disappointment, personally.. and I'm not exagerrating. I've been chasing another Wing Commander all of my life.. and that isn't it. As much as I want to see Star Citizen come to fruition, Freelancer is precisely why I don't get hyped about it. And I think it's sad that you blame Microsoft for rushing.. when it was Chris Roberts' broken promises and flakiness that led it to that state. They simply salvaged what they could.

And yet you still join the hype train on Star Citizen to boot! Believing it was all Microsoft.

Look at it from Microsoft's perspective: they saw Freelancer's potential and were in a position not only to take it from him and reap the rewards of it, but also own it so they could follow up on it. Perhaps even execute Roberts full vision of it in a sequel...that never came. Yes, Microsoft finished Freelancer where it might not have been otherwise which I am grateful for but I am not pleased the Microsoft abandoned the concept entirely and Digital Anvil turned to dust after the launch of Freelancer. The nine year drought is the reason why Chris Roberts was able to raise so much money at Kickstarter. That could have been Microsoft's success story but no, enter Xbox (which had to have been in early prototyping when Freelancer launched) and Microsoft's absolute lack of interest in PC gaming. Xbox was the best thing (for Microsoft investors) and worse thing (for PC gamers) Microsoft ever did.

I'm a skeptical optimist in regards to Star Citizen. That drought left behind by Freelancer is still very much unfilled. Star Citizen promises to fill it. Microsoft didn't and doesn't.

StrayKATedit: I should also add that Shadowrun deserved to die. It was meant as a cheap addition to Xbox Live.. a sad fate for such a great franchise. Multiplayer shooter Shadowrun? Really? I'm just glad the actual creator got involved with digital games and made those RPGs we have now. It's what it should have been to begin with.

I see the rose-tinted glasses are starting to lift. Microsoft sacrificed so much in the name of pushing Xbox. Spencer has lied so many times about committing to PC gaming. Talk is cheap. Only when Xbox One and Windows share common hardware did Microsoft actually deliver on the promise but it's too little too late. The graveyard is already full of corpses.

FordGT90ConceptLook at it from Microsoft's perspective: they saw Freelancer's potential and were in a position not only to take it from him and reap the rewards of it, but also own it so they could follow up on it. Perhaps even execute Roberts full vision of it in a sequel...that never came. Yes, Microsoft finished Freelancer where it might not have been otherwise which I am grateful for but I am not pleased the Microsoft abandoned the concept entirely and Digital Anvil turned to dust after the launch of Freelancer. The nine year drought is the reason why Chris Roberts was able to raise so much money at Kickstarter. That could have been Microsoft's success story but no, enter Xbox (which had to have been in early prototyping when Freelancer launched) and Microsoft's absolute lack of interest in PC gaming. Xbox was the best thing (for Microsoft investors) and worse thing (for PC gamers) Microsoft ever did.

I'm a skeptical optimist in regards to Star Citizen. That drought left behind by Freelancer is still very much unfilled. Star Citizen promises to fill it. Microsoft didn't and doesn't.

They're probably thinking like me: It's pointless to continue without him.

He's a genius... but can't seemingly manage projects well. I think Microsoft wanted it to work out, but they were SOL with or without him. And now, Roberts even on his own isn't doing better. Publishers were never his issue. Same goes for Tim Schaefer.. another of my favorites.