Lower 6-core models are the cores/$£€ sweetspot. Anything above that will be more expensive per core.
Ryzen 5 3600 and 10400F.

ARFMaybe not. Normally, IPC increase of 20% or so means lower frequencies, not higher frequencies.




13th generation? I think they should start from 1st generation once BIG.little approach is implemented.

You're right!!

As far as I know Intel Alder Lake and Intel Meteor Lake are listed as 12th & 13th generation on new H6 LGA 1700 socket but as all the leaks on the net say that 16 cores Intel Alder Lake (big.LITTLE is brand new architecture and using 10nm++ and Intel Meteor Lake is 7nm+ (Intel Alder Lake Refresh) both on H6 LGA 1700 socket PCIe 5.0 with DDR5 and USB-4

To my knowledge Intel Rocket Lake memory controller is PCIe 4.0 for H5 LGA 1200 socket PCIe 4.0 boards 400/500 series.

To my knowledge Intel Meteor Lake memory controller is PCIe 5.0 for H6 LGA 1700 socket PCIe 5.0 boards 600/700 series.

To my knowledge AMD AM5 is PCIe 5.0 with DDR5 and USB-4 from the start! (5nm)

You can do your own research....but it seems clear whats coming.

Yeah Intel should call Intel Alder Lake & Intel Meteor Lake as first #1 & #2 of new architecture....

Is there an actual cooler out there that can dissipate 300+w in a normal case? Air OR Water?

WeeRabIs there an actual cooler out there that can dissipate 300+w in a normal case? Air OR Water?

240mm radiator should be reasonably OK for doing that. Bigger air coolers are capable as well although noise might be a problem. Look at Intel's HEDT or Threadrippers for some ideas on what working with that kind of heat is like.

WeeRabIs there an actual cooler out there that can dissipate 300+w in a normal case? Air OR Water?

Noctua NH-D15 ?

My Arctic Freezer 13 is rated up to 200W.

So they've eked out another 1 GHz roughly from the original 14nm 3 years ago.

They've managed an extra 1 Ghz when it took about 15 years to go from 1Ghz to 4Ghz.

And they've managed to do it at the wrong end of that GHz race and on an aging fab process... it's not a bad effort really.

Titles wrong going by this chart.
www.techpowerup.com/img/22p4myCRlQtZJtNq.jpg

BraggingrightsExpense is for office productivity, this is enthusiast and damn the cost
Heat? Are we talking about Ryzen's now, because in every test they burn like the sun compared to the Intel counterpart
1080p: E-Sports dude, the whole world is chasing frames and latency and your boys just don't deliver

Which tests are you talking about? All those lies and argumentum ad hominem in almost every post from you are very sad.

Chips like the 3600/3600x/3700x consume a lot less power compared to their intel counterparts. Except for idle consumption, intel pulls slightly ahead there. (doesn't matter for us as we don't use our PCs just to browse the web - always gaming or working else turning it off) And the new 10th gen chips from Intel actually have a TDP for their baseclock and not boost. (this is why the "forced 95w TDP mode" shows a 3.5ghz clock compared to the 125w TDP at 3.8ghz) The turbo clock power consumption (power consumption = heat) goes above 200w on the 10700k. And that's just for the chip without anything else. You say AMD chips would be hotter than Intel chips which is simply not true.

For some power consumption (and hence heat production) tables see the link below. Same performance intel chips tend to run hotter/use more power than AMD chips (Zen 2).

images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph14605/111362.png

The older Zen 1/Zen 1 + chips produced a lot more heat than the Zen 2 chips though. Which is to be expected when going down to 7nm with Zen 2. Zen 3 is going to be rather interesting. If you want to have the highest FPS numbers in games possible you could still go for an intel processor. But you will have to go with AMD if you don't want your system to basically be a heater, want it to be a lot more quiet and depending on where you live save a decent amount of money from your electricity bill (sure, USA has cheap electricity but most countries like mine have double to triple the cost per kwh - a 50w difference with 4 hours of high workload or gaming per day can easily eat 30-40€ per year where I live). A system which runs cooler, runs quiet, is cheaper and consumes less electricity is well worth a ~5% difference in framerate in most games. And games actually using 8 cores / 16 threads will become a lot better with the new console generation releasing soon which might mitigate that difference in the future or even turn the numbers around. Most CPU bound games currently have a larger issue with draw calls more than anything though so Vulkan/DX12 should fix the multithreading bottlenecks eventually. (doesn't matter if a game like Planet Coaster can use 16 threads if the draw calls are bound to a two threads bottlenecking even the best processors to below 60fps in lategame while two threads run at 100% and all others run at 30%)

And on the stability side of things: Early Ryzen chips definitly had issues. But BIOS updates and Chipset updates (download those directly from AMD - they almost always have a newer version than the motherboard manufacturer) fixed all common instabilities. Some people still have issues due to some very specific combination of hardware and software installed or some bad bios or windows settings but personally neither my wife (amd 3700x) nor me (intel 7700k) have had any issues. Neither of those systems had a BSOD in the past six months (got the 3700x back then, she was still on a 4770k before that) and both are used for gaming and heavy workloads (the PCs at work are bad and we work at a radiology department hence we like to run the 3D image calculation from the 256 slice low dose CT at our own PCs when doing homeoffice - the PCs at work are old enough to still run windows 98...). Can you have issues with a chip? Yes, my 2500k back in the day had BSOD issues even though it is supposedly one of the most stable processors from that time, simply lost the chip lottery back then. But I don't really see any issues with current ryzen 3000 processors. Don't know anyone who had issues with it either and we have a lot of "gamer friends" (kinda comes with working at a radiology, basically the only geeky part of hospitals where we live - makes it a lot of fun to work there as noone is opposed to have fun with an after work karaoke party or similar things - internists and other doctors we get to see sometimes are rather boring in comparison).

There are still reasons to go for intel but it's definitly not lower heat or stability anymore. Stability is the same and heat is far worse with 10th gen now and slightly worse with 9th gen compared to Zen 2. I still hope Zen 3 will be as much of a boost as promised in the roadmaps (Zen 2 delivered on the promises, but you can never know). At that point the pressure from both sides will be large enough to see massive price drops on both sides (like we saw with the cut in half prices from intel a short while ago).

Another thing: The prices of the 10th gen from the current presentation is a "cost per unit when buying 1000 units". The real market price normally is 15-20% higher at first. Intel is using the same trick they use for the TDP values. They go for the base instead of boost clock TDP and they go for the "if you buy 1000 units" instead of "recommended retail price". Ontop of that they like to present their single core boost clock as the "boost clock" instead of all core boost. This time they at least showed both in their presentation. AMD uses similar tricks but not to such an extent. Hence looking just as the numbers on paper instead of actual benchmarks (power consumption etc) might make you believe that intel would be better in that regards while it actually isn't (as shown in the graph above - you can find many more tests and benchmarks rather easily though).

EarthplayerThey go for the base instead of boost clock TDP and they go for the "if you buy 1000 units" instead of "recommended retail price". Ontop of that they like to present their single core boost clock as the "boost clock" instead of all core boost. This time they at least showed both in their presentation. AMD actually gives the real values for TDP at sustained boost, all core boost clock and rrp (although they use their own tricks for other values).

Are you saying both AMD and Intel are evil or what?
AMD similarly uses base clock for TDP, does not give real value as TDP for sustained boost and does not use all core boost clock for marketing but uses one core boost clock.

As far as prices go, Intel's retail prices have pretty much always been at a same or similar level as their RCP. 9000-series is kind of a fluke with excessive prices across the board for a while.

Let's stop with the drama and name-calling please. It degrades the topics and devalues anything anyone has to say. Feel free to review our forum guidelines before posting further, thanks!

:toast:

To put the whole heat argument to rest:
When it comes to lower power consumption, lower heat and hence lower noise level AMD wins. :) Don't trust TDP values on the box of companies. Intel and AMD both don't use the real power consumption values for those but Intel is a lot further away from the real watt usage than AMD hence on paper it looks like AMD would run hotter but in reality, in games, in benchmarks, in software AMD runs cooler than Intel. :)

Apollo 11 was pretty hot too, LHC output is insane, Ferrari V12 phew

If only their thermals were better they'd be pretty impressive products

EarthplayerTo put the whole heat argument to rest:

When it comes to lower power consumption, lower heat and hence lower noise level AMD wins. :) Don't trust TDP values on the box of companies. Intel and AMD both don't use the real power consumption values for those but Intel is a lot further away from the real watt usage than AMD hence on paper it looks like AMD would run hotter but in reality, in games, in benchmarks, in software AMD runs cooler than Intel. :)

Just try running any Ryzen 3000 CPU at Intel 5GHz+ club speeds and see what happens?

Yes Intel H5 LGA 1200 socket platforms with broken PCIe 4.0 is finally given AMD 3000/4000 series a clear win!

All this changes with Intel H6 LGA 1700 socket platforms 12th/13th generations....with 16 cores big.Little and 10nm++ & 7nm+ is automatic win in power development once again! Even AMD upcoming 5nm AM5 platforms 5000/6000 series won't be able to complete against upcoming Intel H6 LGA 1700 socket.....

It's going to be a clear winner for Intel new architecture in the upcoming Intel Alder Lake and Intel Meteor Lake (12th & 13th generations)

BraggingrightsApollo 11 was pretty hot too, LHC output is insane, Ferrari V12 phew

If only their thermals were better they'd be pretty impressive products

You started the heat argument to begin with and said AMD was running hotter. Glad to see you accepted that you were wrong though. :) Your comparisons are honestly rather insane though.

Anyways, I really hope Intel puts out some interesting processors with their 11th gen. Would be great to see both sides compete strong enough to see the prices drop further.

EarthplayerYou started the heat argument to begin with and said AMD was running hotter. Glad to see you accepted that you were wrong though. :) Your comparisons are honestly rather insane though.

Anyways, I really hope Intel puts out some interesting processors with their 11th gen. Would be great to see both sides compete strong enough to see the prices drop further.

What? based on that? even they said their result was meaningless :roll:

AMD hot, unstable and finicky in my experience, but some people are more forgiving of those things to save a few bucks, that's cool too

EarthplayerYou started the heat argument to begin with and said AMD was running hotter. Glad to see you accepted that you were wrong though. :) Your comparisons are honestly rather insane though.

Anyways, I really hope Intel puts out some interesting processors with their 11th gen. Would be great to see both sides compete strong enough to see the prices drop further.

Intel 11th gen "Rocket Lake" is still 14nm++ made by Samsung said to be 12 cores and a working PCIe 4.0 memory controller for the H5 LGA 1200 socket.

10nm++ Intel 12th gen "Alder Lake" is Intel next generation architecture! (Golden Cove cores) then 7nm+ Intel 13th generation "Meteor Lake" is basically Alder Lake Refresh to my knowledge.

Intel H6 LGA 1700 socket PCIe 5.0 with DDR5 and USB-4 and all the other goodies... VS AMD AM5 socket PCIe 5.0 with DDR5 and USB-4

ToxicTaZIntel 11th gen "Rocket Lake" is still 14nm++ made by Samsung said to be 12 cores and a working PCIe 4.0 memory controller for the H5 LGA 1200 socket.

10nm++ Intel 12th gen "Alder Lake" is Intel next generation architecture! (Golden Cove cores) then 7nm+ Intel 13th generation "Meteor Lake" is basically Alder Lake Refresh to my knowledge.

Intel H6 LGA 1700 socket PCIe 5.0 with DDR5 and USB-4 and all the other goodies... VS AMD AM5 socket PCIe 5.0 with DDR5 and USB-4

I thought they finally figured out their issues with 10nm? Those roadmaps seem to change every few months now instead of every year... Zen 3 should be cheap as it's still on AM4 but this scares me for Zen 4. I hope AMD will still stay true to their cheap pricing and make Zen 4 equally cheap even if Intel has nothing to offer to compete at that point. But maybe Intel has a trick up their sleeves, who knows. Will be interesting either way with DDR5, USB-4 and PCIe 5.0 coming up for consumer products. I hope they improve the lithography for the motherboards though. Else passive cooling PCIe 5.0 will be impossible. Not that we will need PCIe 5.0 any time soon for general consumers considering GPUs don't even need the full 3.0 x16 right now. But with the first consumer motherboards with 3.0 back in the day we didn't see any new 2.0 boards anymore after a short while even though it was plenty enough back then. But who knows. Maybe we see 4.0 alongside 5.0 for many years - cheap and medium tier boards with 4.0 and high tier with 5.0 only. Still want those lithography improvements. 12nm for the newer boards right now is a nice improvement over the old 28nm but there is still more than enough headroom for improvement even with current tech. After the 5 years of basically no improvements (compared to the jumps we saw before ) it's great to see huge steps being made in the processor and motherboard market though. :)

EarthplayerI thought they finally figured out their issues with 10nm? Those roadmaps seem to change every few months now instead of every year... Zen 3 should be cheap as it's still on AM4 but this scares me for Zen 4. I hope AMD will still stay true to their cheap pricing and make Zen 4 equally cheap even if Intel has nothing to offer to compete at that point. But maybe Intel has a trick up their sleeves, who knows. Will be interesting either way with DDR5, USB-4 and PCIe 5.0 coming up for consumer products. I hope they improve the lithography for the motherboards though. Else passive cooling PCIe 5.0 will be impossible. Not that we will need PCIe 5.0 any time soon for general consumers considering GPUs don't even need the full 3.0 x16 right now. But with the first consumer motherboards with 3.0 back in the day we didn't see any new 2.0 boards anymore after a short while even though it was plenty enough back then. But who knows. Maybe we see 4.0 alongside 5.0 for many years - cheap and medium tier boards with 4.0 and high tier with 5.0 only. Still want those lithography improvements. 12nm for the newer boards right now is a nice improvement over the old 28nm but there is still more than enough headroom for improvement even with current tech. After the 5 years of basically no improvements (compared to the jumps we saw before ) it's great to see huge steps being made in the processor and motherboard market though. :)

AMD AM5 socket with (Zen4 & Zen5) on first generation 5nm. Intel has brand new architecture against it!! Intel brand new double the IPC cores "Golden Cove" in the 3rd generation 10nm++ (Alder Lake) and second generation 7nm+ (Meteor Lake) on New H6 LGA 1700 socket.

Intel purity much is going to wipe AMD AM5 5nm with Alder Lake and Meteor Lake with both based upon 16 cores big.Little and on high yielding 10nm++ & 7nm+ will automatically win power department!

Intel 12th and 13th generation will be similar to the 4 Cores 2700K & 3770K was but with 16 cores big.Little architecture is what's coming.

AMD AM5 will also lose backwards compatibility with AM4.... In fact even some Zen 3 AM4 is spotted having backwards compatibility issues too!

www.techpowerup.com/266710/amd-b550-chipset-detailed-its-ready-for-zen-3-older-am4-motherboards-not-compatible