ValantarTrue to some degree, but with 6- and 8-pin cables those sense pins are part of the main pin group. I have literally never seen a third party cable that doesn't have all 6/8 wires running between the PSU and GPU. Here the sense wires are singled out onto a secondary, tacked-on connector, and one small enough that you'll really struggle to find crimp pins for it capable of handling even 18AWG wiring. Meaning that wiring this up to look nice alongside those 12 thick (16-18AWG) individually sleeved cables you've already made for power is going to be really hard. The plug itself clearly signals that these connectors are secondary. This drastically increases the temptation for people to take shortcuts - you're left with the choice of either hacking together something potentially dangerous, or trying to make 12 thick and 4 thin wires running together look cool in some way. I have no problem whatsoever imagining that a lot of people, if they discover this, will just go "eh, whatever, I'll just bridge them at the connector, it'll look better".

those aren't 16 gauge, they're 28.


ICYMI:
www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/pcie-gen5-12vhpwr-connector-to-deliver-up-to-600-watts-of-power-for-next-generation-graphics-cards.287682/
www.amphenol-icc.com/product-series/minitek-pwr-cem-5-pcie.html

however i would not want to pay for custom cables that used short cuts; no matter of any potential problems; its an aesthetic thing.

I know its getting old me keep saying it, but the PC market is going in a bad direction, we getting more and more products to support higher power usage in an era of crazy electricity costs and when the world is trying to go greener on energy consumption. it feels like the market needs power draw regulation to force it on track.

Even if we ignored all this, are we at a point where existing PSU's are about to become obsolete?

www.igorslab.de/en/power-supply-insanity-connector-chaos-and-transient-drama-when-pure-waste-of-resources-gets-elevated-to-the-new-standard/2/

chrcolukI know its getting old me keep saying it, but the PC market is going in a bad direction, we getting more and more products to support higher power usage in an era of crazy electricity costs and when the world is trying to go greener on energy consumption. it feels like the market needs power draw regulation to force it on track.

Even if we ignored all this, are we at a point where existing PSU's are about to become obsolete?

We are not getting anywhere, a group of people this running ahead so to develop another one product.
They are free to develop even lollypop's with the AMD logo, I am not going to buy any.

PSU and power standards this is another topic.
They are standards simply defining energy consumption.
They are standards simply defining compatibility with old and new INTEL hardware.
Existing PSU they have product design date.
It is obligation of the educated consumer, him to select the PSU which this is the best combination of both worlds.

Vast majority of Gamers will never buy any RTX 3090.
RTX 3000 this is an engine also capable for computation, some though to use that for medical research, others might use it for other applications.
Some are in denial to accept the fact, that NVIDIA does not begging any gamers them to become their customers.
There is a larger picture behind all these recent planing.

They might be after for a special workstation for face recognition, or a special workstation for astronomers, or something more boring. :)

CallandorWoTCNN and Fox news decide who USA candidates are, not USA voters. You are uneducated in how broken America has become, and such ignorance I wish I had still.

You wish it was CNN and fox news man... they just sell airtime. It's larger than that with the corperate donor limits off.

Vecix6Why you call this an Smart power connector, as I know my VGA uses 8 pin connector capable of 150W + 75W PCI Express conection but my card and ALL consumes diferent power depending of his load so it's not fixed to 225W or other number, it varies, so I cannot understand the usefull of those new standard with 4 prefixed W.

Because it can actually communicate it's upper limit via sense pins. Yours cannot.

Vayra86No, countries get the leaders they deserve, its really that simple.

Its far too easy to always point the finger elsewhere. The same goes for 'power usage' and how 'commerce makes it increase'.

We're the idiots buying everything.

Most of the population is idiots honestly in any given country. That's why there has to be limits on how much influence any one group can put forth. Because inevitably, that group that spends the most will win.

/OT though

looniamthose aren't 16 gauge, they're 28.


ICYMI:
www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/pcie-gen5-12vhpwr-connector-to-deliver-up-to-600-watts-of-power-for-next-generation-graphics-cards.287682/
www.amphenol-icc.com/product-series/minitek-pwr-cem-5-pcie.html

however i would not want to pay for custom cables that used short cuts; no matter of any potential problems; its an aesthetic thing.

I know. That's the entire point of what I'm saying: dealing with different gauge wires is not something most cheap aesthethics-focused custom cable makers are going to want to do, so I foresee a lot of shortcuts. One workaround would be using equal thickness wires, but that's essentially impossible with that plug - as I said, good luck finding pins for it able to accommodate even 18AWG. You're preaching to the choir here man.

looniamthose aren't 16 gauge, they're 28.


ICYMI:
www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/pcie-gen5-12vhpwr-connector-to-deliver-up-to-600-watts-of-power-for-next-generation-graphics-cards.287682/
www.amphenol-icc.com/product-series/minitek-pwr-cem-5-pcie.html

however i would not want to pay for custom cables that used short cuts; no matter of any potential problems; its an aesthetic thing.

What, spec has a max diameter for insulation lol you'd think they would have a min. thickness (unless its on another page). guess you're getting varnished wires should be good enough for 12v ;)

R-T-BMost of the population is idiots honestly in any given country. That's why there has to be limits on how much influence any one group can put forth. Because inevitably, that group that spends the most will win.

/OT though

Especially in countries with dictators/large corruption/and/or expensive education the individual has to pay all of. Sometimes I feel like it's still the dark ages, just with modern technology.

Valantaras I said, good luck finding pins for it able to accommodate even 18AWG. You're preaching to the choir here man.

don't know who i am preaching to but those pins aren't hard to find:
www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-FCI/10132447-111PLF?qs=KVgMXE4aH4lVRPXcCnDrdA%3D%3D,

Wire Gauge:

20 AWG to 16 AWG

those are specified if you look at the documentation linked on the product page in my previous post.
this isn't my first rodeo if i spend the time i can find dozens of terminals/pins that support 11amps/16awg in the mouser and digikey catalogs. . don't know why you think they're hard to find.

edit: that mouser links seems screwy, same thing on digikey:
www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/amphenol-icc-fci/10132447-111PLF/7590954

mechtechWhat, spec has a max diameter for insulation lol you'd think they would have a min. thickness (unless its on another page). guess you're getting varnished wires should be good enough for 12v ;)

you should look closer, those do not carry 12v.
(all you really need is continuity) :)

looniamdon't know who i am preaching to but those pins aren't hard to find:
www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-FCI/10132447-111PLF?qs=KVgMXE4aH4lVRPXcCnDrdA%3D%3D,

Sadly that link doesn't work - are those 20-16AWG pins that fit the sense wires? If so, I'm rather impressed, considering the size of those pins. Though I frankly wouldn't expect most people making cheap extensions or replacement cables to be sourcing their hardware from Mouser (or a similar trustworthy source). AliExpress or Ebay would be my guess, and any suitable connectors there would likely drown in the hundreds of low-gauge results, leading them to take the cheap and easy way of just bridging them instead. Heck, I might be pessimistic here, but I've seen the consequences of prioritizing aesthetics and low cost too many times to not be. And there's just no way these people would find 12 low gauge + 4 high gauge wires pretty enough, IMO.

CallandorWoTDo you not remember last year when USA gave a crap ton of tax money to Intel....?

www.cnbc.com/2022/03/02/why-intels-ceo-was-a-guest-at-bidens-state-of-the-union-address.html


nom nom

Oh please, I'll bet you didn't a shit when they give as tax breaks to billionaire's or big oil, or big banks. How much to save the corrupt Goldman Sachs in the GFC, and they started it.

Minus InfinityOh please, I'll bet you didn't a shit when they give as tax breaks to billionaire's or big oil, or big banks. How much to save the corrupt Goldman Sachs in the GFC, and they started it.

I did. Nice job assuming though.

ValantarSadly that link doesn't work - are those 20-16AWG pins that fit the sense wires?

?????? no those are 12v/GRN pins. it seemed you think that 18awg would be hard to come by. the sense pins are 28awg.

ValantarIf so, I'm rather impressed, considering the size of those pins. Though I frankly wouldn't expect most people making cheap extensions or replacement cables to be sourcing their hardware from Mouser (or a similar trustworthy source). AliExpress or Ebay would be my guess, and any suitable connectors there would likely drown in the hundreds of low-gauge results, leading them to take the cheap and easy way of just bridging them instead. Heck, I might be pessimistic here, but I've seen the consequences of prioritizing aesthetics and low cost too many times to not be. And there's just no way these people would find 12 low gauge + 4 high gauge wires pretty enough, IMO.

have the data sheet since you're having link issues to see what i'm pointing out. has all the applicable part numbers and what tools to use. the stuff isn't hard to find if you know what to look for. :)

not to go far off topic but i remember when this guy started as an artesian on OCN (back w/it was a better forum) too bad he's no longer around but his youtube channel is still informative:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7p3y4df3uwYYZI7bcdJAA

though i am not going to disagree that its not for everyone, esp those who are danerous w/a screwdriver, like my brother. :laugh:

edit; sorry wrong data sheet. TLDR:
just google these part #s :rockout:

So instead of graphics cards with sensible TDPs to accommodate rising electricity prices across the globe, they give us a new connector to let graphics cards draw even more power. Thanks, Intel, really useful! :nutkick:

What a chaotic f*cking mess


You can get a PSU that physically fits, but oops no special connector says no good

MusselsWhat a chaotic f*cking mess


You can get a PSU that physically fits, but oops no special connector says no good

but wait! there's more!

The major changes that the ATX12V v3.0 brings are the following:

• New 12VHPWR connector for Add-In Cards (like GPUs) can deliver up to 600W
• The 12VHPWR should be labeled according to the maximum power delivered
• All PSUs with more than 450W max power have to have 12VHPWR connectors to meet the newest ATX spec.
• The PSU reports to the PCIe card, through sideband signals, its power capabilities, so the latter can set its power limit accordingly.
• PSUs should be able to turn on/off 175,200 times per year of their life without breaking!
• Changes in low load efficiency. Above 60% is required for 10W or 2% of max-rated capacity and above 70% is a recommendation.
• Increased tolerance for high power spikes, for the compatible PSU platforms. Up to 200% of the PSU's rated power for 100μs with a 10% duty cycle.
• Increased slew rates for transient loads (2.5 - 5x times higher for the +12V rail)
• 12V rail can go up to 12.2V to allow for lower voltage drops
• Broader load regulation limits for the +12V rail (+5 to -8% on the PCIe connectors and +5 to -7% for the other connectors).
• Changes in the speed of the Power On signal to allow for faster response and system's wake up, even when the rails are not at zero levels but somewhere in between.
• Efficiency and design requirements for Alternative Low Power Modes (ALPM), previously called Alternative Sleep Modes
• The labels on the PSUs should include T1 and T3 timings, among others.
• The addition of a new certification standard, Cybenetics, besides 80 Plus, is in the references section.

We will go through the list of changes explaining everything. We will try to keep things as plain as possible, but this won't be easy.

aris posted an excellent article, though some may want to skip any caffeinated beverage.
www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-atx-v3-psu-standard

Why ill need this ? atm its to easy or what :)
75w pcie slot power
6 Pin 75w
8 pin 150w

if a card will have 500w it can be used like the past 13 years:
3x 8pin 450w + pcie slot 75w


Another thing will be if the stock cards will get up to 600w, how the hell will they cooling it without a jet noise?


Anyways ill not change my 2 year old psu cause idiotic new standard, then ill be limited to old cards or even to cards with max. 75w via the slot.:cool:

looniam?????? no those are 12v/GRN pins. it seemed you think that 18awg would be hard to come by. the sense pins are 28awg.

Okay, since you apparently need spoon feeding: I'm talking about custom wiring. Custom wiring is mainly/only concerned with aesthetics. Combining two wire sizes won't look as good (and will be hell for cable combs), so custom wiring makers will be incentivized against having this. This is where my "you likely can't find 18AWG pins" comment came from - from an assumption that cable makers will have a strong desire for uniformity in their wiring, and purely talking about the sense wires. I have literally never commented on wiring gauges for the power leads - I'm well aware that you can get pins for those supporting quite thick wiring - that's obvious. Thus, as custom wiring makers will want uniformity in cabling and can't get pins to afford that, they will likely take shortcuts by bridging pins at the connector. You follow now?

ValantarOkay, since you apparently need spoon feeding: I'm talking about custom wiring. Custom wiring is mainly/only concerned with aesthetics. Combining two wire sizes won't look as good (and will be hell for cable combs), so custom wiring makers will be incentivized against having this. This is where my "you likely can't find 18AWG pins" comment came from - from an assumption that cable makers will have a strong desire for uniformity in their wiring, and purely talking about the sense wires. I have literally never commented on wiring gauges for the power leads - I'm well aware that you can get pins for those supporting quite thick wiring - that's obvious. Thus, as custom wiring makers will want uniformity in cabling and can't get pins to afford that, they will likely take shortcuts by bridging pins at the connector. You follow now?

oh i got where you're going in your first post but i've tried to avoid telling you i don't share your low opinion of custom cable makers. i guess you had a bad experience and i'm sorry for that but fortunately for myself i watched lutro0 be a knowledgeable, detail oriented, extremely helpful individual. who had a stellar reputation among dozens of boutique builders, but like caselabs, all good thing must end i guess.

though i can't see anyone trying to save a few bucks per one thousand parts to put their reputation at stake cheapening out on parts. its a shame those links didn't work out for you or you would see that on both digikey and mouser's catalogues. as far as aesthetic uniformity; i'm very sure the same paracord used for the 16awg wires would at least accommodate two of the 28awg sense wires if not all four. and on a side note, i recommend reading aris' article i posted before -turns out just two of the four wires are required:

What the Extra Four Sensor Pins Do?
Compared to Nvidia's 12 pin connector, the new one has four extra pins which don't deliver current, but they are sense pins. So what do these pins exactly do? Let's start with the easy part first. Two of these sideband signals are required, the ones coming from the PCIe card are optional while the ones coming from the power supply are required.

SENSE0 (Required)
SENSE1 (Required)
CARD_PWR_STABLE
CARD_CBL_PRES#

so hey! there goes half the problem! right?! :p

though seriously, new combs will need to arrive to market anyhow since 4, 6, 8, and 24 space combs are common but no 12/16 spacers. i'm sure comb manufacturers (whoever they are!) can design a mold to inject some plastic that will make (most) all people happy. its not like those are expensive anyhow.

granted if there is a market for it . .

it will be fine. don't be a debbie downer.

looniamoh i got where you're going in your first post but i've tried to avoid telling you i don't share your low opinion of custom cable makers. i guess you had a bad experience and i'm sorry for that but fortunately for myself i watched lutro0 be a knowledgeable, detail oriented, extremely helpful individual. who had a stellar reputation among dozens of boutique builders, but like caselabs, all good thing must end i guess.

though i can't see anyone trying to save a few bucks per one thousand parts to put their reputation at stake cheapening out on parts. its a shame those links didn't work out for you or you would see that on both digikey and mouser's catalogues. as far as aesthetic uniformity; i'm very sure the same paracord used for the 16awg wires would at least accommodate two of the 28awg sense wires if not all four. and on a side note, i recommend reading aris' article i posted before -turns out just two of the four wires are required:

so hey! there goes half the problem! right?! :p

though seriously, new combs will need to arrive to market anyhow since 4, 6, 8, and 24 space combs are common but no 12/16 spacers. i'm sure comb manufacturers (whoever they are!) can design a mold to inject some plastic that will make (most) all people happy. its not like those are expensive anyhow.

granted if there is a market for it . .

it will be fine. don't be a debbie downer.

You don't seem very familiar with the cesspit of garbage quality items that is the low-end custom cabling market - aptly illustrated by this conversation with me talking about low quality, cheap, high volume wiring and you responding by talking about a boutique, hand-made, low volume outfit. These are opposite ends of the spectrum (though there are no doubt higher end outfits than lutro0). I'm talking about what sells in massive volumes to underinformed buyers - the stuff that's plentiful for cheap on sites like Ebay, Amazon, Aliexpress, and even third party sellers on sites like Newegg. If you've been reading what I've been saying and thinking it was meant to apply to $100+ custom cable kits, you clearly haven't been paying attention. These are the same manufacturers who fake wire gauge ratings by having thicker insulation on their cabling, for example (I've seen "18AWG" labeled power wiring that has the copper cross section of ~24AWG, for example). The market for cheap-but-decent-looking cable extensions and kits is massive, and mostly targets aesthetics-focused and underinformed buyers - who there will always be more of than the knowledgeable ones. And yes, saving a few bucks per thousand parts is precisely the kind of thing they like doing. These are the people who operate a dozen rotating storefronts at any one time and kill them off as complaints mount, and who willfully ignore any and all safety ratings and standards.

I have no doubt serious outfits will threat this properly, and keep making high quality cabling as they have been doing. Knowing that scene, they'll probably come up with some smart and good-looking solution (using two two-conductor 28AWG wires roughly matching the size of a single 16/18AWG power wire would be one solution). But that's not what I've been talking about in this thread, and has little to no relation to the potential problem I'm bringing up.

ValantarYou don't seem very familiar with the cesspit of garbage quality items that is the low-end custom cabling market - aptly illustrated by this conversation with me talking about low quality, cheap, high volume wiring and you responding by talking about a boutique, hand-made, low volume outfit. These are opposite ends of the spectrum (though there are no doubt higher end outfits than lutro0). I'm talking about what sells in massive volumes to underinformed buyers - the stuff that's plentiful for cheap on sites like Ebay, Amazon, Aliexpress, and even third party sellers on sites like Newegg. If you've been reading what I've been saying and thinking it was meant to apply to $100+ custom cable kits, you clearly haven't been paying attention. These are the same manufacturers who fake wire gauge ratings by having thicker insulation on their cabling, for example (I've seen "18AWG" labeled power wiring that has the copper cross section of ~24AWG, for example). The market for cheap-but-decent-looking cable extensions and kits is massive, and mostly targets aesthetics-focused and underinformed buyers - who there will always be more of than the knowledgeable ones. And yes, saving a few bucks per thousand parts is precisely the kind of thing they like doing. These are the people who operate a dozen rotating storefronts at any one time and kill them off as complaints mount, and who willfully ignore any and all safety ratings and standards.

I have no doubt serious outfits will threat this properly, and keep making high quality cabling as they have been doing. Knowing that scene, they'll probably come up with some smart and good-looking solution (using two two-conductor 28AWG wires roughly matching the size of a single 16/18AWG power wire would be one solution). But that's not what I've been talking about in this thread, and has little to no relation to the potential problem I'm bringing up.

i used lutro0 as an example of what my personal experiences were. i guess i failed at attempting to connect w/you. my bad. i'm still trying to figure out where the bad cables hurt you.

however that did not mean i am not aware of cablemods (who is much bigger than lutro0 every was and mass produce sets as your example. and custom sets sold through caseking, moddymymods or performacePCs. along what is sold through corsair, seasonic and evga are custom sets, the garbage on ebay, aliexpress, newegg and amazon are not custom sets unless sold by any of the aforementioned.

my point is crap like that has unfortunately always been there and will likely always be, c'est la vie. the best anyone can do is have reasonable, informative (why i am posting data/spec sheets) public discussions to help the uninformed make sound choices.

looniami used lutro0 as an example of what my personal experiences were. i guess i failed at attempting to connect w/you. my bad. i'm still trying to figure out where the bad cables hurt you.

however that did not mean i am not aware of cablemods (who is much bigger than lutro0 every was and mass produce sets as your example. and custom sets sold through caseking, moddymymods or performacePCs. along what is sold through corsair, seasonic and evga are custom sets, the garbage on ebay, aliexpress, newegg and amazon are not custom sets unless sold by any of the aforementioned.

my point is crap like that has unfortunately always been there and will likely always be, c'est la vie. the best anyone can do is have reasonable, informative (why i am posting data/spec sheets) public discussions to help the uninformed make sound choices.

Ehm ... custom PSU cabling is any cabling that doesn't come with the PSU. Period. At least that's what I mean when I say it. It doesn't need to be custom-made, made-to-order, boutique or anything fancy, just non-standard, third party cabling. The very fact that they are made and sold by a third party makes them custom, despite them being mass produced; custom as in non-standard, non-stock, non-original. I think this is where the core of the misunderstanding here lies. Apparently me saying

Valantarshitty third party cables and extensions

wasn't clear enough. Shitty being the operative word here.

I haven't been "hurt" by bad cables since I have the knowledge to know what to look for, but I've seen plenty of reports of burnt PSU extensions and similar garbage. My only personal experience with fake wiring was the 12V feed on a cheap PCIe riser (that I had no plans on using, and spotted its fakeness as I cut it off, exposing its hair-strand copper wire). But plenty of others have.

As for your laissez-faire attitude to this: that's just stupid. Seriously. Electrical safety is important. Standards pertaining to electrical safety need to be designed with this in mind across a broad range of implementations. And I'm entirely sure Intel and/or the PCI SIG didn't consider the prevalence of PSU extensions and custom wiring in DIY PCs today when designing this standard - or at least they didn't count it as important enough to avoid this blatant security issue with the design they went with. Which, while technically understandable - ultimately this is a niche thing, and entirely irrelevant to the enterprise markets they're mostly concerned about - is still poor design IMO. Of course, adding four more full-size pins has its own drawbacks. But IMO, if the choice is between "have a slightly larger plug" and "lay the groundwork for melted future fire hazards", I'd go with the larger connector every time. And if your argument is "well, if people buy this cheap stuff they deserve what's coming to them" (which does seem to be the case), that's just a bad attitude.

ValantarEhm ... custom PSU cabling is any cabling that doesn't come with the PSU. Period. At least that's what I mean when I say it. It doesn't need to be custom-made, made-to-order, boutique or anything fancy, just non-standard, third party cabling. The very fact that they are made and sold by a third party makes them custom, despite them being mass produced; custom as in non-standard, non-stock, non-original. I think this is where the core of the misunderstanding here lies. Apparently me saying

wasn't clear enough. Shitty being the operative word here.

i'll abstain to further disagree with what constitutes a custom cable set to point out that i read complete sentences for context, sorry:

ValantarWait, so this means that shitty third party cables and extensions are just going to bridge sense1 and sense0 to ground right at the connector, right? I foresee a future where this leads to some ... let's say unsafe custom wiring. Hooray!

Other than that, this is kind of cool. But also too simple a mechanism for me to trust any custom cabling that isn't very high quality.

what i tried to show you is the pertinent information to relievated your concern over the sense wires.

ValantarI haven't been "hurt" by bad cables since I have the knowledge to know what to look for, but I've seen plenty of reports of burnt PSU extensions and similar garbage. My only personal experience with fake wiring was the 12V feed on a cheap PCIe riser (that I had no plans on using, and spotted its fakeness as I cut it off, exposing its hair-strand copper wire). But plenty of others have.

well you said it yourself, cheap. and sure i myself have seen forum horror stories of extensions, even seen seasonic pci-e connectors melt. doesn't mean it common.

ValantarAs for your laissez-faire attitude to this: that's just stupid. Seriously.

don't confuse laissez-faire with confidence from knowledge and experience buddy. ;)

ValantarElectrical safety is important. Standards pertaining to electrical safety need to be designed with this in mind across a broad range of implementations. And I'm entirely sure Intel and/or the PCI SIG didn't consider the prevalence of PSU extensions and custom wiring in DIY PCs today when designing this standard - or at least they didn't count it as important enough to avoid this blatant security issue with the design they went with.

oh my, blatant security issue??? yeah no, you are so waaay blowing this out of proportion. and i would point out that those safety features are there in part because of the prevalence of crappy extensions, adapters etc that are used for broad range of implications even though intel and psi-e sig does specify exactly how things are implemented ya know, standards. and its like you don't think anyone from intel, or pci-e sig ever shopped on newegg, amazon, ebay. . . .

ValantarWhich, while technically understandable - ultimately this is a niche thing, and entirely irrelevant to the enterprise markets they're mostly concerned about - is still poor design IMO. Of course, adding four more full-size pins has its own drawbacks.

for the love of all that is holy, have you not understood a thing??? - they are not full size terminals

ValantarBut IMO, if the choice is between "have a slightly larger plug" and "lay the groundwork for melted future fire hazards", I'd go with the larger connector every time. And if your argument is "well, if people buy this cheap stuff they deserve what's coming to them" (which does seem to be the case), that's just a bad attitude.

i've never said anything about what people deserve and there is no place for that in a reply to me. however, i will question the common sense in buying a $5 cable for a $3000+ card.

as the saying goes, you lead a horse to water . . .

good luck w/that. :)

ValantarWait, so this means that shitty third party cables and extensions are just going to bridge sense1 and sense0 to ground right at the connector, right? I foresee a future where this leads to some ... let's say unsafe custom wiring. Hooray!

Other than that, this is kind of cool. But also too simple a mechanism for me to trust any custom cabling that isn't very high quality.

Looks like it might not be as bad as you thought.
www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-atx-v3-psu-standard

Will this finally mean the end of those clunky Ampere reference card 12-pins?

defaultluserWill this finally mean the end of those clunky Ampere reference card 12-pins?

It is basically the same connector plus 4 additional wires for "smartness".

looniamwhat i tried to show you is the pertinent information to relievated your concern over the sense wires.

I know, and I appreciate the input, but the issue is that what you're trying to address is not really pertinent to the issue I'm bringing up. You're talking standards and sensible applications, I'm talking real-world, nitty gritty realities of how these standards are botched by unscrupulous people out to make a quick buck.

looniamwell you said it yourself, cheap. and sure i myself have seen forum horror stories of extensions, even seen seasonic pci-e connectors melt. doesn't mean it common.

No, but is that an argument for not criticizing a standard that incentivizes poor implementations? I would say no.

looniamdon't confuse laissez-faire with confidence from knowledge and experience buddy. ;)

Confidence from knowledge of and experience with what? Seemingly not the cheap custom PSU wiring market, given the approach here - your working assumption seems to be that there are good actors in the market, so the bad ones can just be ignored. I'm very much opposed to that line of thinking. And in order to minimize the potential for harm from these bad actors, what we need is for standards to remove opportunities for potentially dangerous shortcuts, not add more.

looniamoh my, blatant security issue??? yeah no, you are so waaay blowing this out of proportion. and i would point out that those safety features are there in part because of the prevalence of crappy extensions, adapters etc that are used for broad range of implications even though intel and psi-e sig does specify exactly how things are implemented ya know, standards. and its like you don't think anyone from intel, or pci-e sig ever shopped on newegg, amazon, ebay. . . .

Blatant security issue might be a bit strongly worded, but IMO it is a major design flaw when your design actively incentivizes shortcuts and disincentivizes compliant implementations, even in niche applications. That is a severe regression in quality for this standard vs. previous ones.

How? It was brought up earlier that similar shortcuts could be done with 8-pin PCIe wiring, as those also just need sense pins shorted to ground. But I have never seen this done by anyone, ever in real life. Why? This is speculation, of course, but it's relatively safe to assume that when you're already making a harness of 6 wires, adding two more identical wires is a low-effort undertaking, and coming up with and implementing a shortcut would likely take far more effort than it would be worth. It might even look worse in the end, as 8 matched wires likely look better than 6 matched wires + a couple of bodge wires in the plugs. And, as has been central to my argument all along: these people care mainly about aesthetics.

For these cables, on the other hand, there is no real option for matched cabling (unless, as I tried bringing up as a possibility earlier that you apparently misread, you could find pins for the small connector capable of holding wires of the same gauge as the power wiring - this would let you run 16 equally thick wires for aesthetic purposes, at the cost of unnecessary wiring, exotic and possibly nonexistent pins, and a lot of hassle). You'd then need to find a way to make having four much thinner wires look good alongside 12 thicker ones. How do you do that? Creative routing and combs might help, but that is labor intensive and increases QC costs, which is anathema to these actors. Two-conductor wire of rougly the same thickness as the thicker wire might work, but terminating them in a good-looking way would be a challenge. Or you could stuff two wires into one sleeve - though that would be lumpy and stiff, sub-optimal for aesthetics. The same goes for sticking single wires into oversized sleeves - plus that they would be loose, of course. The third, and suddenly more attractive option, then becomes shorting the wires to ground at the connector. This would be the simplest, cheapest (you're now saving four lengths of wire per cable, rather than the potential two on an 8-pin), and possibly least bodged-together-looking solution of the bunch. That is a problem, when the worst implementation possible has the most advantages.

looniamfor the love of all that is holy, have you not understood a thing??? - they are not full size terminals

............................................. I was comparing the pros and cons of going with 16 equally sized pins vs. the solution they actually went for. Was that difficult to understand? Literally the entire basis of my issue here is based on these being different, smaller pins, ffs. I would really suggest you take a step back here, as it seems you're approaching this discussion dead-set on just not understanding what I'm saying, whether consciously or not. I'm sorry if my style of writing isn't sufficiently clear, but literally nothing in the sentence you quoted above is me saying that the pins on the standard presented here are full size.

looniami've never said anything about what people deserve and there is no place for that in a reply to me. however, i will question the common sense in buying a $5 cable for a $3000+ card.

And I'd agree with that assessment. But I'm also realistic enough to know that people will still do so, and that people fall victim to scammers passing off $5 cables for $100 cables, but with an impressive rebate, etc. That's why standards should prioritize safety to the degree that eliminating unscrupulous shortcut implementation possibilities should be a main goal of the design. That's how you make a safe standard - by not assuming that everyone implementing it is a good actor interested in following it. Instead, what we have here is a standard that, though unintentionally, at least partly incentivizes shortcuts.