TheinsanegamerNThe high end doesnt care. The high end has NEVER cared. You seem to forget the high end market that drove 2kW PSUs, multi GPU rendering, and LN2 OCing isnt going to care about a few extra watts.

Sure but the High End market also is a very very small market so that is not what I was talking about

TheinsanegamerNThe high end doesnt care. The high end has NEVER cared. You seem to forget the high end market that drove 2kW PSUs, multi GPU rendering, and LN2 OCing isnt going to care about a few extra watts.

If an extra $2-5 a year worries you you are not in the market for a $1600 GPU in the first place.

Well, you contradict yourself again here:

Zen 4 doesnt do enough and also the only reason people are negative on zen 4 is because of tech press sucking up to intel. You claimed earler one of the problems was that zen 4 failed to produce a clear win over intel, but then blame the tech media for why intel looks good, ignoring your previous point that intel does, in fact, outperform AMD again.

Oh so now were back to "well actually AMD IS slower then intel". Let me throw you a bone here: you think that maybe the tech press is excited about intel because intel is making a comeback whereas AMD is starting to fall behind again?

Nah, its gotta be shilling.

":dont show me evidence that I am wrong".

Wow. :laugh::roll::laugh:

8 P cores are more than enough for modern apps and games, meaning you can't understand my point because you are looking things from a different perspective. And that's not going to change any time soon. For now you can probably compare an 8 core Ryzen with a 4+4 Intel to understand my point. Or maybe when an 8 core model will be 1 P core and 7 other types of cores, obviously slower, you might even get annoyed by reading/watching reviews that will be talking about an "8 core CPU".
Until then, I do understand the usage of those smiles.

john_Please. You seem to know how much people care about power consumption in PC hardware and now,, you seem to know how irony and sarcasm works.
Please enlighten us.

If you would have said "people care about power consumption yet all buy 13900k's and rtx4090/rx7900xtx's ?"
That would be ironic.

If I would have said "yeah because people care so much about power consumption"
that could have been sarcasm.

But I said "Idk if you live on planet earth, but power consumption has been on people's mind a lot for a while now"
That would just be wrong if I did not mean it.

anywho, here ya go, thought Id make it about Greece because that is where you are from:
www.ekathimerini.com/economy/1198807/power-consumption-declines/

ZoneDymoIf you would have said "people care about power consumption yet all buy 13900k's and rtx4090/rx7900xtx's ?"
That would be ironic.

If I would have said "yeah because people care so much about power consumption"
that could have been sarcasm.

But I said "Idk if you live on planet earth, but power consumption has been on people's mind a lot for a while now"
That would just be wrong if I did not mean it.

anywho, here ya go, thought Id make it about Greece because that is where you are from:
www.ekathimerini.com/economy/1198807/power-consumption-declines/

People don't choose computer hardware based on it's power consumption.

There. I can't make it simpler than that. Even in Greece.

john_People don't choose computer hardware based on it's power consumption.

There. I can't make it simpler than that. Even in Greece.

Got anything to back that up with?
Its not for nothing AMD makes a big deal out of their 50% performance per watt improvement and that they dont just give their gpu's a 600 watt ceiling allowing them to handily beat big N just at a MUCH higher power consumption.

TheinsanegamerNThe high end doesnt care. The high end has NEVER cared. You seem to forget the high end market that drove 2kW PSUs, multi GPU rendering, and LN2 OCing isnt going to care about a few extra watts.

I'm not so sure the high-end is monolithic. There can be some people who care and others that don't care about power consumption. If everyone on the high end didn't care about power consumption, you wouldn't see all these videos demonstrating how to reduce the power consumption of high end Intel and AMD parts. UV is pretty popular nowadays.

I hope we've reached the point where power consumption starts decreasing because it's reaching the point where buying a graphics card has you considering how many amps your circuit supports, summer temperatures, and whether your case and power supply can handle the beast. People who want every last drop of performance can OC their cards as they wish.

Although there will be an increase in IPC, 6 performance cores will be insufficient at the highest level.

I'm just gonna throw this in here....

Intel, can we PLEASE stop with the Lakes already? At this point, even the horse is screaming "I'm dead already! I'm dead already! Stop it!" :D :roll:

Meh, they can release as many lakes as they want. I'm just waiting for 7950X3D which will demolish any intel on productivity and games. Also I really do care about power consumption ESPECIALLY when im getting a top end GPU, so I don't understand why some are claiming that to not be the case. My 3x 360mm rads in the custom loop can handle a lot of heat, but when i'm pumping 250W on the CPU I invariably get lower boost clocks on the GPU as the water heats up more. Pretty sure the 7xxx X3D's would smack the 13th gen left right and center in pretty much everything if both CPU's are capped at 150W which is where I want the CPU to be at. Hell, when the 7950X is limited to 105W TDP it loses next to no performance on games, the X3D will just widen the gap with ADL.

Some people fail to realise that they won't necessarily get more performance, depending on their cooling setup, if they pump too much power through the CPU that the GPU temps rise. That's an area where the 12/13th gen has issues when pushed to its limit.

Power consumption most definitely matters to users. If not for the electricity bill, which probably isn't that much, but cooling becomes a problem as CPUs and GPUs tend to overheat, even with powerful cooling and especially in hot weather.

RPL in idle/low loads is more efficient than zen4, 60W vs 100W on average.
And in gaming just put a 100W PL cap.

Gmr_ChickI'm just gonna throw this in here....

Intel, can we PLEASE stop with the Lakes already? At this point, even the horse is screaming "I'm dead already! I'm dead already! Stop it!" :D :roll:

We are swimming in lakes, and we can only swim because there are so many lakes, without them we would not be swimming in them, the cycle cannot be broken!

Hi,
Seems like most of the "so called lakes" are mostly creeks or streams or even puddles in popularity.

ThrashZoneHi,
Seems like most of the "so called lakes" are mostly creeks or streams or even puddles in popularity.

I like it!

ThrashZoneHi,
Seems like most of the "so called lakes" are mostly creeks or streams or even puddles in popularity.

If I had to guess, I would say 80+% of new builds I've seen on build request threads on the net are Intel 12 and 13 gen builds and that's being conservative.

lightning70Although there will be an increase in IPC, 6 performance cores will be insufficient at the highest level.

Originally for desktop, Meteor Lakes new P cores were expecting up to 34% IPC uplift, which is enormous and the new Crestmont E cores were also expected to see very large IPC uplifts. 6 P may well have been able to beat or at least match 8 RL P cores and Crestmont would thrash Gracemont+. Still 6P cores a s top gap, much like Meteor Lake itself as Arrow Lake is 8 P cores. Intel seems to be struggling with the chiplet design and FPGA layer it all sits on. Intel 4 is much of a jump over Intel 7 in feature size, it's pretty poor update, Intel 3 is much better and what Arrow Lake will use. Looks like they agree and will use the extra time to get Meteor Lake mobile functional and go straight to Arrow Lake for desktop after RL+. Arrow Lake sounds promising but will they even get it out before 2025? Zen 5 will be out in 2024 it seems, possibly with Bergamo 5c E cores to assist full fat Zen 5 cores. Zen 5 vs Arrow Lake should be interesting. AMD has alluded to plenty of accelerators coming for Zen 5 and I'm sure Intel will have somethoing similar if Sapphire Rapids does well.

2023 - Raptor Lake Refresh. LGA 1700
2024 - Arrow Lake. LGA 1851
2025 - Panther Lake. LGA 1851
2026 - Nova Lake. LGA 1851

And that's assuming nothing else gets cancelled or postponed.

If the e cores will see uplift to the level of 10-11gec CPU cores from 6-7 gen (and that is planed already for Meteor), than for most uses 6P cores will do just fine.
It will not look good on presentation and might be a side grade as do 11th gen was but after that the road is clear.
Just like AMD having now a less than successful gen and intel is booming, the wheel will turn in 1 year or so.

Rumors that Meteor lake only has SKUs for mobile use have been said for more than half a year. Other than that, there was talk of MTL being premium and RPL being value, but in any case, it has been said for a long time that MTL and RPL would be sold together.


According to the "List of Intel manufacturing sites", while there are very few factories capable of producing Intel 4, there are construction plans for Intel 20A production plants, which will be as numerous as Intel 7.

Intel 7 (5 sites): Fab 12, 22, 28, 32, 42
Intel 4 (1 sites): Fab 34
Intel 20A (4 sites): Fab 27, 52, 62, 42(switched from Intel 7)

The site (real estate) has already been acquired, and we are certain that a significant amount of money has been invested. It would be obvious that the Intel 4 node is a middleman and there is no plan for mass production of products in all segments. To cover all segments with Intel 4, at least two more Fabs would have to be built by 2021 to be ready in time, and Intel does not have the necessary number of EUV lithography for that.

ZoneDymoGot anything to back that up with?
Its not for nothing AMD makes a big deal out of their 50% performance per watt improvement and that they dont just give their gpu's a 600 watt ceiling allowing them to handily beat big N just at a MUCH higher power consumption.

Do you? To back up yours? Of course you don't. You can quote individuals, or show a couple of YouTube videos about undervolting, but the thing is that both Intel and Nvidia gained market share with power hungry products.

AMD makes a big deal about power consumption the last 7+ years, but it is backfiring in their face the last 2-3 years. People rush to buy power hungry stuff to have the best possible performance, no matter the power consumption. AMD already changed route with Zen 4, letting it turbo as high as possible, while also increasing TDP to 170W, to achieve best possible performance. They will do the same with RDNA 4 or even with RDNA 3, if they come out with a refresh that turbos probably over 3GHz.

AMD is in a desperate position with Nvidia increasing the lead, while Intel is coming from behind to steal OEM sales in the GPU market (from both AMD and Nvidia). At the same time, power hungry Intel CPUs, that are advertised as 16 and 24 core models, while having more E cores than P cores, are taking back market share in the retail market.
AMD is holding up thanks to servers and consoles. If Intel comes out with a good server CPU or even manages in 2-3 years to have something good for consoles to steal that market from AMD, well, many will get what they wised for. Monopolies, stagnation and ridiculous high prices in about everything.

evernessinceIf everyone on the high end didn't care about power consumption, you wouldn't see all these videos demonstrating how to reduce the power consumption of high end Intel and AMD parts. UV is pretty popular nowadays.

People will buy those power hungry models over more efficient models based on a very understandable logic
"I'll get the product that offers the best performance, undervolt it and if I ever need that extra performance, I will run it at defaults or even overclock it".
They will not get the more efficient but slower part, because they wouldn't probably have the option to ... unlock that extra performance when they need to.

evernessincePeople who want every last drop of performance can OC their cards as they wish.

Things changed compared to the past. Companies try to win benchmarks and put price tags on new products based on their optimal performance. If the company A sells the product B with a frequency of 1GHz to keep it efficient, while that product can reach 1.2GHz frequency, it's leaving 20% performance on the table. That means it will be looking 20% slower on benchmark charts and the company will have to price it accordingly, as a 20% slower product. Instead companies try to overclock their new products to their maximum, to achieve maximum performance, to advertise them as fast, to put price tags accordingly.

Let me say it with differently. In the past someone was buying a product that could overclock 30%. That meant "FREE performance". Free is dead today. You buy the product at the highest possible price and then you have the option to LOSE performance, if you wish for efficiency.

Minus InfinityOriginally for desktop, Meteor Lakes new P cores were expecting up to 34% IPC uplift, which is enormous and the new Crestmont E cores were also expected to see very large IPC uplifts. 6 P may well have been able to beat or at least match 8 RL P cores and Crestmont would thrash Gracemont+. Still 6P cores a s top gap, much like Meteor Lake itself as Arrow Lake is 8 P cores. Intel seems to be struggling with the chiplet design and FPGA layer it all sits on. Intel 4 is much of a jump over Intel 7 in feature size, it's pretty poor update, Intel 3 is much better and what Arrow Lake will use. Looks like they agree and will use the extra time to get Meteor Lake mobile functional and go straight to Arrow Lake for desktop after RL+. Arrow Lake sounds promising but will they even get it out before 2025? Zen 5 will be out in 2024 it seems, possibly with Bergamo 5c E cores to assist full fat Zen 5 cores. Zen 5 vs Arrow Lake should be interesting. AMD has alluded to plenty of accelerators coming for Zen 5 and I'm sure Intel will have somethoing similar if Sapphire Rapids does well.

Few people believed the Meteor Lake is "Originally for desktop" and "expecting up to 34% IPC uplift". For example:

@OneRaichu
1/x
About Meteor lake.
MTL focus on how to improve the efficiency of the instruction execution, it will not widen the microarchitecture crazy like Alder lake.
May 18, 2022

@Arjunownit0
People who upgrades to zen 4 /raptor lake will be like 30%‍♂️. Cuz next gen desktop parts (zen5 /Arrow lake ) is a bigger upgrade. And Meteor lake is only mobile. There is ni desktop parts on meteor lake, thats why they say Arrowlake is 40% over Raptorlake.
July 14, 2022

ZoneDymoIf you would have said "people care about power consumption yet all buy 13900k's and rtx4090/rx7900xtx's ?"
That would be ironic.

If I would have said "yeah because people care so much about power consumption"
that could have been sarcasm.

But I said "Idk if you live on planet earth, but power consumption has been on people's mind a lot for a while now"
That would just be wrong if I did not mean it.

anywho, here ya go, thought Id make it about Greece because that is where you are from:
www.ekathimerini.com/economy/1198807/power-consumption-declines/

I agree with you to some point. For me, I like to try out new technology and so from time to time, I may try out high end CPUs and GPUs. Yet, power consumption is a consideration, not because of the power it requires, but rather the heat that gets generated that's starting to limit what I want to buy/ try. Regardless of the cooling solution used, the amount of heat dumped out don't change by much.

Dirt ChipIf the e cores will see uplift to the level of 10-11gec CPU cores from 6-7 gen (and that is planed already for Meteor), than for most uses 6P cores will do just fine.
It will not look good on presentation and might be a side grade as do 11th gen was but after that the road is clear.
Just like AMD having now a less than successful gen and intel is booming, the wheel will turn in 1 year or so.

I actually find it pointless to upgrade if the improvement is just on the E-cores. But that is subjected to individuals' use case. If I were still into doing video encoding/ decoding related work, then I guess the faster E-cores will be useful. However for people using their system for games which uses P-cores almost exclusively, then I don't believe it will benefit FPS at all. You may see better benchmark results, but that's just benchmarks and generally don't translate to real life experience.

Why_MeIf I had to guess, I would say 80+% of new builds I've seen on build request threads on the net are Intel 12 and 13 gen builds and that's being conservative.

And Mindfactory sales numbers are completely opposite, 2/3 for AMD, 1/3 for Intel.

Mindfactory sales numbers, AMD outsells Intel 2 : 1

But the majority of AMD sales are Ryzen 5000, so perhaps people buying previous generation processors won’t be bragging about them in build request threads?

And of course many people dismiss Mindfactory numbers since they are a German store, so maybe not applicable to their part of the world, or representative of majority…

BwazeAnd Mindfactory sales numbers are completely opposite, 2/3 for AMD, 1/3 for Intel.

Mindfactory sales numbers, AMD outsells Intel 2 : 1

But the majority of AMD sales are Ryzen 5000, so perhaps people buying previous generation processors won’t be bragging about them in build request threads?

And of course many people dismiss Mindfactory numbers since they are a German store, so maybe not applicable to their part of the world, or representative of majority…

I see a lot of people upgrading their AMD builds on the net such as the cpu, but as far as new builds from scratch ... it's mostly Intel.

freeagentIt would be nice if they could get creative with a new naming scheme. Core has been around since 775, i7 etc has been around since 1366, and these new CPUs have nothing to do with their past.

I disagree. I think Intel is great in that they label their CPUs as "nth gen". They've had a consistent naming scheme for longer than any other silicon manufacturer. I can easily know that 13th gen Core is newer than 12th gen Core. and that a Core i7 2600 is from the 2nd generation, which is older than the 13th. Their GPU division also made a good move using A-B-C-D.. for each generation, which is similarly easy.

It's much much better than all the other manufactures who use three or four digit numbers and then when they get past 900 or 9000 start over with a completely different numbering scheme. Ask a layperson which is better - a Radeon HD 7970 or a Radeon RX 7900 XTX. They would probably say the 7970 because it has a higher number even though we know it is a decade older and the numbering scheme rolled over. The worst was AMD in the 2010s who just give all their GPU products a unique name (Vega, Fury, etc.) that provided no context on how new it was.