Bomby569you completely lost the point of my argument. I was saying this don't heart AI's fellings or they will run away, is a fear campaign, something that is currently the way they try and condition decisions this days.

Ah I see, fair point.

AusWolfMy TV and my phone are the last smart things I'll ever want to see in my house, that's for sure.

you'll love this

Bomby569If to go on the lead of something we have to make the EU a wild west for tech companies to abuse us, then it's not a good deal. The EU is great on a lot of other sectors, we don't need the AI bubble to survive. Like the "we don't have tech BS", but we lead on several key industries related to chip design/manufacturing.

Vayra86Sure, just like GDPR ? ;)


We've seen what the other way around leads to.
Look at the power of Big Tech. Dystopia is just around the corner in the US and in China they already have a live environment of it by happily marrying gov and commerce; in many ways, I think its extremely healthy the EU is moving against that proactively.

That is one way to look at it, of course. As a tech worker myself, I see things rather differently: everyone that has a word to say in tech, goes to the US (or even China). The last big tech thing that happened in Europe is www. Everything since has happened and continues to happen elsewhere. The European IT survives mostly by the occasional fines levied against Microsoft/Google/Intel or whoever happens to have an actual lead. Look at the job postings in EU: it's either for GAFA subsidiaries, or some random fintech.
And while China may be headed towards a dystopia (their choice), I can assure you the US is not. There's the embarrassing situation of the ISPs/telcos having a stranglehold on everything, but otherwise, if you want funding and to reap the results of your own work, the US is where you want to be.

And I'm not suggestion the EU should stop regulating. But I'd rather have them come up with a plan for leadership in a few key domains and then regulate around that.

PS I still have to tip my hat to OpenSUSE, though. Made in EU :cool:

The US is no different than China if you're talking about a typical dystopian state, sure it's not total Xi/Mao levels of dictatorship but it's slowly getting there. They can though screw you in a 1000x different subtle ways that China doesn't really bother with. They don't really care about optics, US does & that's the main difference IMO.

Bomby569you'll love this

Yeah, I've heard about this. Luckily, voice control makes me cringe (except for in Star Trek), so I'm not in danger. :)

bugThat is one way to look at it, of course. As a tech worker myself, I see things rather differently: everyone that has a word to say in tech, goes to the US (or even China). The last big tech thing that happened in Europe is www. Everything since has happened and continues to happen elsewhere. The European IT survives mostly by the occasional fines levied against Microsoft/Google/Intel or whoever happens to have an actual lead. Look at the job postings in EU: it's either for GAFA subsidiaries, or some random fintech.
And while China may be headed towards a dystopia (their choice), I can assure you the US is not. There's the embarrassing situation of the ISPs/telcos having a stranglehold on everything, but otherwise, if you want funding and to reap the results of your own work, the US is where you want to be.

And I'm not suggestion the EU should stop regulating. But I'd rather have them come up with a plan for leadership in a few key domains and then regulate around that.

PS I still have to tip my hat to OpenSUSE, though. Made in EU :cool:

I think you're not wrong. The US not being a dystopia much the same; there ARE still checks and balances even if they're half functional. But the cracks are there and crap seeps through on the regular, you already mentioned one aspect, there are many more. I recognize some of them in the EU just the same, too.

From an individual (very liberal!) perspective, you're 100% right. Unfortunately the liberal perspective completely omits the value of the collective. Its how we end up with hypercapitalism. Less law more good because now I can get filthy rich. That's really what you're saying without saying it. And those are the cracks in society. Those are the key drivers that erode public faith and accelerate extremist views. The next step is anarchy - again... the US has had recent examples and they're ongoing.

So sure, its really cool you can make money with your fancy tech idea. You might just ascend to the 3% in the top... and then you can raise your middle finger at the remaining 97% and all is well. You'll then donate to some charity and make noise about it to satisfy the idea that you're giving back. In some other topic (D4 related) people mused about worker's rights and making a stand and how difficult that is. This post here describes the core of that problem. Somehow lots of people have decided its every man for himself. Good luck w that, now live it.

This is the only available trajectory right now, sadly, for the US. As a tech worker in the EU I'm very happy we're thinking outside that box.

The Chinese dystopia is the communist one: the government exerting total control over the individual through direct means.
The American dystopia is the capitalist one: companies exerting total control over the individual through subtle means.

I'm the individual. Guess where I stand.

bugThat is one way to look at it, of course. As a tech worker myself, I see things rather differently: everyone that has a word to say in tech, goes to the US (or even China). The last big tech thing that happened in Europe is www. Everything since has happened and continues to happen elsewhere. The European IT survives mostly by the occasional fines levied against Microsoft/Google/Intel or whoever happens to have an actual lead. Look at the job postings in EU: it's either for GAFA subsidiaries, or some random fintech.
And while China may be headed towards a dystopia (their choice), I can assure you the US is not. There's the embarrassing situation of the ISPs/telcos having a stranglehold on everything, but otherwise, if you want funding and to reap the results of your own work, the US is where you want to be.

And I'm not suggestion the EU should stop regulating. But I'd rather have them come up with a plan for leadership in a few key domains and then regulate around that.

PS I still have to tip my hat to OpenSUSE, though. Made in EU :cool:

Apple:
We had Nokia, they were kings, but they self destroyed themselves, it happens. We had ericson and alcatel.
Nokia is now leading on 5G

Google, Facebook, Twitter, Tik tok...:
I have no idea why those don't happen in Europe. We have spotify. Is it because of some laws? Do you have any insights

Intel, TSMC, Samsung:
They would not exist without ASML or Zeiss, etc...

What are you exactly talking about? I guess we lack mostly on the software side of things. It's the laws in EU that stop the software development?

Bomby569Apple:
We had Nokia, they were kings, but they self destroyed themselves, it happens. We had ericson and alcatel.
Nokia is now leading on 5G

Google, Facebook, Twitter, Tik tok...:
I have no idea why those don't happen in Europe. We have spotify. Is it because of some laws? Do you have any insights

Intel, TSMC, Samsung:
They would not exist without ASML or Zeiss, etc...

What are you exactly talking about? I guess we lack mostly on the software side of things. It's the laws in EU that stop the software development?

Nope, its about being first and claiming a market.
The same thing that happened (or is attempted) in the shared economy, platform economy, etc.

Google and Facebook had design wins and stormed forward to make it better and claim dominance.
New players are having an extremely difficult time to combat them, especially when said parties are now buying up startups left and right. They positioned themselves as gatekeeper, judge and jury.

The lack of US regulation (and ironically EU regulation too) is the cause of this. And now the US is looking at a few monsters that directly threaten its democracy, and a public that is addicted to said monsters. Forget lobbying, companies can just grab the power to herd the masses now. Musk is exercising that opportunity now on his 'own' medium. And since the power is with the people... :)

Bomby569Apple:
We had Nokia, they were kings, but they self destroyed themselves, it happens. We had ericson and alcatel.
Nokia is now leading on 5G

Google, Facebook, Twitter, Tik tok...:
I have no idea why those don't happen in Europe. We have spotify. Is it because of some laws? Do you have any insights

Intel, TSMC, Samsung:
They would not exist without ASML or Zeiss, etc...

What are you exactly talking about? I guess we lack mostly on the software side of things. It's the laws in EU that stop the software development?

Well, the thread is about AI. So yes, software.

Laws spawn bureaucracy. Bureaucracy slows you down (at best). Like one Nokia exec once said: "by the time we put together a PowerPoint presentation, the Chinese build a phone".
There is far more venture capital available in the US, so you can realize your idea quicker. This is crucial, because in some instances, like Facebook or smartphone operating systems, once a player or two get established, there's no room for more. The US also has more and better tech universities, so more talent is readily available - true story, I have a colleague that went to the US "just for the PhD" and never returned when he saw the opportunities ahead over there (he wasn't even looking).

bugWell, the thread is about AI. So yes, software.

Laws spawn bureaucracy. Bureaucracy slows you down (at best). Like one Nokia exec once said: "by the time we put together a PowerPoint presentation, the Chinese build a phone".
There is far more venture capital available in the US, so you can realize your idea quicker. This is crucial, because in some instances, like Facebook or smartphone operating systems, once a player or two get established, there's no room for more. The US also has more and better tech universities, so more talent is readily available - true story, I have a colleague that went to the US "just for the PhD" and never returned when he saw the opportunities ahead over there (he wasn't even looking).

Bureaucracy slows you down, or it slows the company you work for down? There's a subtle, but meaningful difference. ;)

Of course, too much bureaucracy is harmful for the individual as well (look at ex-communist Eastern European shitholes like where I'm originally from), but we need laws to keep companies (tech included) in check. Too much power is always dangerous, whether it be in the hands of governments or corporations.

AusWolfBureaucracy slows you down, or it slows the company you work for down? There's a subtle, but meaningful difference. ;)

If you have an idea you have to implement fast, you have to have your own company. And, in general, companies are made of people, they aren't alien beasts sucking the life out of us.

AusWolfOf course, too much bureaucracy is harmful for the individual as well (look at ex-communist Eastern European shitholes like where I'm originally from), but we need laws to keep companies (tech included) in check.

Hey, don't say that. I'm still here :(

bugWell, the thread is about AI. So yes, software.

Laws spawn bureaucracy. Bureaucracy slows you down (at best). Like one Nokia exec once said: "by the time we put together a PowerPoint presentation, the Chinese build a phone".

you said it's about software not hardware, hardly an issue here.

Microsoft were build on a garage by students, Facebook in college, Twitter didn't even need a building, students and podcasts something like that. Reddit the same. Etc...
I fail to see how bureaucracy could stop them. How better colleges could be the problem. A hardware company, sure, software doesn't seem that straight forward.

And if hardware companies can make it in the EU and lead, despite the bureaucracy and software don't. I need better reasoning to justify this then bureaucracy

bugIf you have an idea you have to implement fast, you have to have your own company. And, in general, companies are made of people, they aren't alien beasts sucking the life out of us.

To begin with, sure. If you're on the top, then doubly so. But on a worker level, I couldn't give a flying damn about any of them. I do my hours, they give me my paycheck. That's it. The rest is just an emblem on my uniform.

If something, I care about my team and my manager infinitely more than I ever will about any company I ever work for through my whole life, that's for sure.

bugHey, don't say that. I'm still here :(

Sorry, dude. :( I wish Brexit had never happened, and we still welcomed talented individuals without a work visa.

Bomby569you said it's about software not hardware, hardly an issue here.

Microsoft were build on a garage by students, Facebook in college, Twitter didn't even need a building, students and podcasts something like that. Reddit the same. Etc...
I fail to see how bureaucracy could stop them. How better colleges could be the problem. A hardware company, sure, software doesn't seem that straight forward.

And if hardware companies can make it in the EU and lead, despite the bureaucracy and software don't. I need better reasoning to justify this then bureaucracy

Those college students were able to get funding. That's the difference.

Recently I was reading about some guy that was pitching his idea all around Berlin and getting laughed at. He went on to build a successful business in the US. I can't recall the name (serious brain lapse), but it's now a recognizable one.

In my opinion the only place AI should be developed is in PC Gaming. Anything else is nothing but hubris.

What you've said about funding, or bureaucracy, has nothing to do with that example. If anything in that German case the (potential) German investors are at fault not being able to make it work, also if it works in the US there's no guarantee it could work in the EU. Every market is different in that regard.

www.youtube.com/@SharkTankIndia

From what I've seen the EU is also generally more conservative than the US or China. Maybe not at an individual level but certainly businesses & govts at large.

R0H1TWhat you've said about funding, or bureaucracy, has nothing to do with that example. If anything in that German case the (potential) German investors are at fault not being able to make it work, also if it works in the US there's no guarantee it could work in the EU. Every market is different in that regard.

It's an indirect effect of (over)regulation: it makes you more risk-adverse.

R0H1Twww.youtube.com/@SharkTankIndia

From what I've seen the EU is also generally more conservative than the US or China. Maybe not at an individual level but certainly businesses & govts at large.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Just that we need to have a plan to be at the forefront in at least a few software fields. Then they are free to decide how conservative or liberal they want to be pursuing that.

bugThose college students were able to get funding. That's the difference.

Recently I was reading about some guy that was pitching his idea all around Berlin and getting laughed at. He went on to build a successful business in the US. I can't recall the name (serious brain lapse), but it's now a recognizable one.

so it's funding not bureaucracy?

Most of the tech stories in the US were funded by the family/friends first, only then they searched for venture capital/investors.

lexluthermiesterThat is not the issue. The problem is that AI is being used in ways that can be very disruptive to society.

It's literally the last sentence of the article