Yes Taiwan has a huge head start, but is also reliant on a US Navy carrier group to keep the mainland super cautious about attempting a siege by sea/air. There will definitely be many years of catch up, but geo-politics has companies moving out to Vietnam and India.

Let's just call it what it is...western workers won't allow themselves to be exploited to the same degree that Taiwanese workers will...that's what he's complaining about, that's what TSMC has wanted to say for months now....part of me would love a militant labor movement to sweep through Taiwan, especially the tech sector, and unionize those factories...I have to imagine they are being worked to the bone

**I will say though that American workers let themselves be exploited much more than European workers however

Well everybody isn't sure your facilities in Taiwan will be owned and operated by you rather than the Chinese government for the foreseeable future Mr. Shih.

Don't doubt the power of American "capitalism".

sethmatrix7Well everybody isn't sure your facilities in Taiwan will be owned and operated by you rather than the Chinese government for the foreseeable future Mr. Shih.

Don't doubt the power of American "capitalism".

That's another good point, you would think that TSMC and every other Taiwanese company would be desperately trying to move essential operations out of Taiwan due to the Chinese threat, but it almost seems like they don't have a care in the world about it...

AnarchoPrimitivThat's another good point, you would think that TSMC and every other Taiwanese company would be desperately trying to move essential operations out of Taiwan due to the Chinese threat, but it almost seems like they don't have a care in the world about it...

Then they'd possibly lose their protection as invading Taiwan wouldn't cause a massive chip shortage

LeiesoldatYes Taiwan has a huge head start, but is also reliant on a US Navy carrier group to keep the mainland super cautious about attempting a siege by sea/air. There will definitely be many years of catch up, but geo-politics has companies moving out to Vietnam and India.

This.

AnarchoPrimitivLet's just call it what it is...western workers won't allow themselves to be exploited to the same degree that Taiwanese workers will...that's what he's complaining about, that's what TSMC has wanted to say for months now....part of me would love a militant labor movement to sweep through Taiwan, especially the tech sector, and unionize those factories...I have to imagine they are being worked to the bone

**I will say though that American workers let themselves be exploited much more than European workers however

Also this.

AnarchoPrimitivThat's another good point, you would think that TSMC and every other Taiwanese company would be desperately trying to move essential operations out of Taiwan due to the Chinese threat, but it almost seems like they don't have a care in the world about it...

From what I've seen/read that's the general attitude over there.
They are essentially so used to a constant threat looming, they've become numb to it.

I'm skeptical about the spelling of "skeptical" here

Alan SmitheeI'm skeptical about the spelling of "skeptical" here

Sorry...TPU's backend accepts both spellings, and I'm sometimes caught out by not being familiar with every nuance of USA/Canada English.

because tsmc or Samsung never had issues.

how long is tsmc in the lead now 6years?

LOL. Well that was a big ol nothing burger. Thank you cpt. obvious. Everything Shih said is common knowledge. Of course the US is behind, duh. Creating fabs and everything that they require to operate doesn't happen overnight. It's a process. The US is just starting said process.

I've said this before and still can't believe TSMC screwed themselves in such a business 101 kind of way. The Phoenix labor issues are of their own making. They did nothing substantial in regards to recruiting at any of the bajillion universities and colleges in the region prior to breaking ground. Assuming you will have a specialized labor force ready to go, without putting any real effort into training or recruiting well ahead of opening the doors is and was a major oversight. It's as if they thought people would be clamoring to get a job with a company very few in the US have ever heard of. If you need people on site ready to work in 2023, you get the word out as far and as fast as possible. As many years PRIOR to actually needing them as you are capable of. If they had simply done some basic homework they would've had droves of college kids knocking their doors down. The funniest part is they seem honestly surprised by the situation they've put themselves in? I also wonder if they realized they were entering a labor market that was already full of opportunities for new job seekers? It was an ultra competitive market when they started their employee search. Employers even now are finding it extremely difficult to fill openings. Lastly, American employees and Taiwanese workers are nothing alike. Did they take the cultural differences into account? It doesn't seem so.

You're right about a lot of things but not wrt knowing TSMC, they are after all the biggest independent fab out there & have been for at least a decade or so!

Even before the recent China crisis anyone who had an interest in this sector had at least heard of TSMC.

Leiesoldatgeo-politics has companies moving out to Vietnam and India.

Geo-politics would have companies moving out to South Korea, Japan, Singapore or Malaysia, or even one of the rich Arab countries. Instead, geo-penny-pinching makes those companies run away from Taiwan to Vietnam, India and Laos.

Taiwan is a small country & relatively small economy, in the next 50 years the last three you mentioned would be among the top 10/20 economies in the world. From the first four(five?) only Malaysia will probably enter that bracket.

Company in Taiwan thinks Taiwan is the place to be. More news at 11.

Shih observed that that US chip industry has historically been far too reliant on outsourcing (going back many decades) production to foreign facilities, and Asia's position has been fortified thanks to long established and optimized supply chains—he thinks that the American system is not mature enough to reach parity.

This is a disadvantage for the US. Chips and other parts are shipped out of Tiawan, Korea, and Japan into West Taiwan for assembly, then shipped across the Pacific to the US. Chips manufacturered at an Intel fab stateside will be shipped across the Pacific to first, then the assembled device will ship back, which gives Intel a disadvantage.

Shih observed that that US chip industry has historically been far too reliant on outsourcing (going back many decades) production to foreign facilities, and Asia's position has been fortified thanks to long established and optimized supply chains—he thinks that the American system is not mature enough to reach parity.

SquaredThis is a disadvantage for the US. Chips and other parts are shipped out of Tiawan, Korea, and Japan into West Taiwan for assembly, then shipped across the Pacific to the US. Chips manufacturered at an Intel fab stateside will be shipped across the Pacific to first, then the assembled device will ship back, which gives Intel a disadvantage.

But this is done so in order to optimise the costs - with profit the first priority. It's simply cheaper for them to outsource, and that's why they do it.

There is no complete happiness.

AnarchoPrimitivLet's just call it what it is...western workers won't allow themselves to be exploited to the same degree that Taiwanese workers will...that's what he's complaining about, that's what TSMC has wanted to say for months now....part of me would love a militant labor movement to sweep through Taiwan, especially the tech sector, and unionize those factories...I have to imagine they are being worked to the bone

**I will say though that American workers let themselves be exploited much more than European workers however

It is absolutely this. As soon as I saw Shih mention "workplace culture" I had to come here to comment. As @AnarchoPrimitiv says, it's simply the case of them severely exploiting their workers.

Interestingly, Taiwan actually mandates that employers are not allowed to make workers work more than 40 hours a week and 8 hours a day, unlike the US where there are no limits. Unionized jobs represent about 30% of the workforce, as opposed to around 11% in the US.

In general, labor law in Taiwan is much more progressive than in the US, backed by a strong and militant labor movement. Taiwanese workers are guaranteed two days off a week and are guaranteed annual leave. If they’re terminated then their employer has to pay for any unused leave days.

There is no at-will termination in Taiwan, and workers are often notified before they’re terminated. In the case of redundancies, the government provides incentives for retaining redundant employees by providing a new position for them. Employees are also guaranteed 30 days of sick-leave with half-pay if not hospitalized and up to one year of sick-leave within a two-year period if hospitalized (they also have single-payer healthcare).

Am i supposed to take this name spuriously

Stan Shih

I still use some of the electronics from the late 80's early 90's and still working fully today.

claesInterestingly, Taiwan actually mandates that employers are not allowed to make workers work more than 40 hours a week and 8 hours a day, unlike the US where there are no limits. Unionized jobs represent about 30% of the workforce, as opposed to around 11% in the US.

In general, labor law in Taiwan is much more progressive than in the US, backed by a strong and militant labor movement. Taiwanese workers are guaranteed two days off a week and are guaranteed annual leave. If they’re terminated then their employer has to pay for any unused leave days.

There is no at-will termination in Taiwan, and workers are often notified before they’re terminated. In the case of redundancies, the government provides incentives for retaining redundant employees by providing a new position for them. Employees are also guaranteed 30 days of sick-leave with half-pay if not hospitalized and up to one year of sick-leave within a two-year period if hospitalized (they also have single-payer healthcare).

Taiwan ... must be a hidden island somewhere between Greece and Britain, I'm still figuring out where it is.

Devastator0As @AnarchoPrimitiv says, it's simply the case of them severely exploiting their workers.

That's not exactly true, I come from a place where 6 work days in a week was the norm for decades! In fact most Asian economies still have that outside IT/CT/telco or modern services based MNC's ~ it still is for "legacy" businesses here & in fact many places around the world. Then there's the fact that the expectations have been set too high by some of the work culture in the West ~ in an MNC here you get roughly 120-125 leaves which includes 2x52 regular weekends, then sick leaves/national holidays & for festivals as well. You get about 40-50 more than you would in a legacy business. Then there's the fact that competition here is fierce, you literally have 2-10x as many people competing for similar positions than in the West ~ which means people are willing to work harder & longer hours as well taking less pay at times.

That's just a fact of life you cannot ignore ~ where you are born dictates a lot of what you achieve in life, your health, your career prospects & your work hours. Some of it is exploited for sure but I'd say the vast majority is just something natural, if you can call it that.

claesInterestingly, Taiwan actually mandates that employers are not allowed to make workers work more than 40 hours a week and 8 hours a day, unlike the US where there are no limits. Unionized jobs represent about 30% of the workforce, as opposed to around 11% in the US.

In general, labor law in Taiwan is much more progressive than in the US, backed by a strong and militant labor movement. Taiwanese workers are guaranteed two days off a week and are guaranteed annual leave. If they’re terminated then their employer has to pay for any unused leave days.

There is no at-will termination in Taiwan, and workers are often notified before they’re terminated. In the case of redundancies, the government provides incentives for retaining redundant employees by providing a new position for them. Employees are also guaranteed 30 days of sick-leave with half-pay if not hospitalized and up to one year of sick-leave within a two-year period if hospitalized (they also have single-payer healthcare).

this sums it up nicely. the major downside to this is that if there are earthquake/typhoon days, or in case of major 3/4 day holiday weekends, the following 1 or 2 weekends usually have a Saturday where it is a "makeup day" to account for the previous day off.

so if last week's Typhoon Doksuri had been a direct hit, there may have been one or two typhoon days. Then, the expectation is you'd have perhaps one or two half days in the next few weeks on a Saturday to make up for the lost day of work.

for those that grew up in Taiwan, it is no big deal, as the normal week of schooling also involved half a day on Saturdays.

but yes, continue to talk about worker exploitation in Taiwan. ironically for most Taiwanese, TSMC is a top company to work for.

R0H1TThat's not exactly true, I come from a place where 6 work days in a week was the norm for decades! In fact most Asian economies still have that outside IT/CT/telco or modern services based MNC's ~ it still is for "legacy" businesses here & in fact many places around the world. Then there's the fact that the expectations have been set too high by some of the work culture in the West ~ in an MNC here you get roughly 120-125 leaves which includes 2x52 regular weekends, then sick leaves/national holidays & for festivals as well. You get about 40-50 more than you would in a legacy business. Then there's the fact that competition here is fierce, you literally have 2-10x as many people competing for similar positions than in the West ~ which means people are willing to work harder & longer hours as well taking less pay at times.

That's just a fact of life you cannot ignore ~ where you are born dictates a lot of what you achieve in life, your health, your career prospects & your work hours. Some of it is exploited for sure but I'd say the vast majority is just something natural, if you can call it that.

it doesn't even start with working... education in Taiwan when I grew up there was M-F 8AM - 5PM, for my middle school. Saturdays was a half day, 8-1.
Mandatory 60 minute lunch, split into 30 minutes eating 30 minutes napping (you have to keep your head down at your desk)
After the second year, public middle schools will divide students into two groups to maximize your chances of doing well in your high school entrance exam (which maximizes your chances of going to college).

In addition to our normal school schedule, some parents also pay extra for tutors and after-hours cram classes to improve test taking skills.

The downside to all this is that the opportunities for a college graduate in Taiwan in your early 20s is extremely limited, even for those with engineering or pre-med degrees. So what many people do to expand job opportunities is to venture abroad for a masters/MBA degree, often in Europe, and then use that as a mechanism to get your foot in the door with a larger company.

Some things can't be compared 1 to 1, and how people work in Taiwan (vs US/EU) is one of those things.