RogueSixNope. The entire Arrow Lake CPU is manufactured at TSMC on TSMC's rather expensive N3B node. Intel 4 was never on the cards for Arrow Lake (maybe many YEARS back but not in the past two to three years). At 2023's Intel Innovation Event, they already demo'ed a 20A Arrow Lake wafer).

Intel 4 was -or now is- always exclusively a mobile node for Meteor Lake only. It's also a crap node if you look at Meteor Lake's metrics. It failed to impress in performance and efficiency.

Intel 3 is evolution of Intel 4 with 1.08x chip density and 18% improvement in performance per watt.

For all intents and purposes this is Intel 4+ outsourced to TSMC N3B.

It never made sense to stay on intel 7 (10nm) 2018-2024, and skip intel 4 (7nm) entirely.

DavenFirst 100% fabbed Intel CPU by someone else. End of an era.

Hardly. TSMC made Atom CPUs decades ago.

So the f parts should be considerably cheaper now they don’t need a good chunk of silicon.
they would miss out on encoding and stuff

kondaminSo the f parts should be considerably cheaper now they don’t need a good chunk of silicon.
they would miss out on encoding and stuff

For $20 more, it might be worth having an iGPU instead of having to rely on descrete cards like my old GTX 760 for between ugrades.

Lord RomulusFor three generations this company has stagnated at 8 cores (I mean real cores, not "chicken cores"). Luckily the other company still delivers 12 and 16 cores.

What do you need these cores for ? Personally I regret buying an expensive threadripper because I thought it would be better for 3d rendering and stuff. Yeah except a single gpu is way faster than 16 cpu cores

phints250W PL2? Intel what the FDLSKJF:SLJF are you doing? TDP should be 105W.

105w is a tall order tbh. 180w is more realistic

So this is to compete against Threadripper right? .......

N/AFor all intents and purposes this is Intel 4+ outsourced to TSMC N3B.

Again: They demonstrated an Arrow Lake Intel 20A wafer at last year's Innovation event. No one really knows if or what desktop CPU was maybe, if ever, supposed to be manufactured on Intel 4 since everything at Intel has been pretty muddy.

However, at least as far back as February 2022, so at least for the past two and a half years, Intel themselves have had Meteor Lake planned on Intel 4 and Arrow Lake on 20A. And February 2022 is when they made this public (just check the link) so they must have had planned ARL for Intel 20A for much longer than that.
The only reasonable conclusion from this publicly available info is that Arrow Lake was never meant to be an Intel 4 part.

The sole reason that ARL is now going to be made on TSMC's N3B node is that Intel has simply failed to ramp up Intel 20A as originally planned. Intel 20A has been officially cancelled altogether. TSMC was Intel's only option aside from delaying or cancelling Arrow Lake.

LauncestonianJudgement reserved until they are seen in the new Z890 boards under windows 11.

For the purpose of making judgements, Linux or Windows 10 would suffice.

MelvisSo this is to compete against Threadripper right? .......

Almost, about 60~ 40 watts off. Zen 2 was such a chad though, I wonder how a Zen 2 X3D would have consumed in games. Nowadays a 16-core Ryzen uses as much power as a 32-core zen 2 .

Vayra86Battlemage took that moonshine and Archmage took an arrow to the knee, apparently

Archmage? Lol you're both meaning to say "Alchemist". Battlemage is next and after that it's Celestial.
Intel is about to be #2 GPU maker you need to know your codenames.

UpgrayeddArchmage? Lol you're both meaning to say "Alchemist". Battlemage is next and after that it's Celestial.
Intel is about to be #2 GPU maker you need to know your codenames.

Yeah fck that, Ill just call them all GPU lake and CPU lake iteration XYZ then :roll:

Lord RomulusFor three generations this company has stagnated at 8 cores (I mean real cores, not "chicken cores"). Luckily the other company still delivers 12 and 16 cores.

Yeah but not true 12 and 16 core CPUs.

They only have 8 cores per CCD with some CCDs having 2 cores disabled for their 6 and 12 core parts. The 12 and 16 core parts are really no different than 2 7600x or 7700x dual socket mobo. It crosses infinity fabric.

And intel supposedly has improved the e cores massively with Skymont in Arrow Lake. And they are all on same die.

Now I would like more than 8 cores of homogeneous arch non Big.Little on the same die.

But Skymont cores I think are good and bot chicken cores unlike Gracemont which had a massive IPC deficit to Golden and Raptor Cove. Skymont supposedly closes the gap big time but behind a bit.

It's kind of like AMD 7950X3D and 7900X3D where it is hybrid with different L3 cache amounts and clocks. But at least intel has all Skymont clusters on same die and no dual socket/CCD cross latency penalty.

Still though would like to see intel release 12 to 16 Skymont or Lion Cove all core die.

It's interesting, what latency will add so much L2/L3 cache on this new Arrows :)

WirkoFor the purpose of making judgements, Linux or Windows 10 would suffice.

If Intel want to capture as much market as possible & that includes steam gamers, Win 11 overtakes Win 10.

Lord RomulusFor three generations this company has stagnated at 8 cores (I mean real cores, not "chicken cores"). Luckily the other company still delivers 12 and 16 cores.

For the longest they stagnated on 2 and 4 cores too

Wolverine2349But Skymont cores I think are good and bot chicken cores unlike Gracemont which had a massive IPC deficit to Golden and Raptor Cove. Skymont supposedly closes the gap big time but behind a bit.

The fact that Arrow Lake without HT still beats Raptor Lake with HT in multicore benchmarks shows Skymont are remarkably stronger. Intel claims they are roughly as good as Raptor cove cores.

Minus InfinityThe fact that Arrow Lake without HT still beats Raptor Lake with HT in multicore benchmarks shows Skymont are remarkably stronger. Intel claims they are roughly as good as Raptor cove cores.

You will need to add power consumption metrics in the mix.

LauncestonianIf Intel want to capture as much market as possible & that includes steam gamers, Win 11 overtakes Win 10.

Making judgements about performance, that's what I meant (and I thought you meant). If Arrow is 15% faster than Raptor under any OS then it's 15% faster.

But performance at what?? Browsing?? Games?? Music production???

Music production is the most intense due to needing real time audio processing without drop outs and stuttering and synths!!

RogueSixAgain: They demonstrated an Arrow Lake Intel 20A wafer at last year's Innovation event. No one really knows if or what desktop CPU was maybe, if ever, supposed to be manufactured on Intel 4 since everything at Intel has been pretty muddy.

Correct. I conflated of those nodes and how they might be related and back-portable to each other. intel 4,3 seem to be related nodelets just like TSMC N5 and N4. intel was supposed to level things up and here we have a clear misalignment yet again. 20A is related to N3B and even N2 in terms of esign rules of gate pitch and such. Well Im speaking out of turn, letting my imagination go wild here. Im sorry as much as I dont like the sound of it.

MelvisSo this is to compete against Threadripper right? .......

Euh no, it would be nice if intel did hedt again

kondaminEuh no, it would be nice if intel did hedt again

Was sarcasm......and yes they used to but not lately.

N/ACorrect. I conflated of those nodes and how they might be related and back-portable to each other. intel 4,3 seem to be related nodelets just like TSMC N5 and N4. intel was supposed to level things up and here we have a clear misalignment yet again. 20A is related to N3B and even N2 in terms of esign rules of gate pitch and such. Well Im speaking out of turn, letting my imagination go wild here. Im sorry as much as I dont like the sound of it.

Granted, you have no choice but to use your imagination. Wikichip has nice overview of nodes for TSMC and Samsung, and it's known which variants of nodes allow the reuse of designs of other nodes. For Intel, even they are unable to draw this kind of diagram.

remixedcatBut performance at what?? Browsing?? Games?? Music production???

Nearly every CPU design falls in the category "more of the same" [of most internal components], so the answer should be "everything". This time it's also "less HT", so I'm eager to see all the details soon.

remixedcatMusic production is the most intense due to needing real time audio processing without drop outs and stuttering an synths!!

But what causes the dropouts? If it's because of insufficient CPU performance then you can reduce the complexity of your synth/eq/effect setup and take some load off the CPU. Not ideal but at least it's under your control. The rest is due to unpredictable behaviour of the OS (Windows and normal Linux aren't real time OSes anyway), the BIOS, maybe even the Intel Management Engine, sure you can do some tuning but it remains unpredictable.