So any added warranty, or means to prevent this? Those stock cooler early versions (8800GT) are in more risk, if heat is a factor?

High-PB? I smell BS here, since Nvidia, and their partners are under RoHS, which means NO lead in anything that they use.

RoHS "Lead-free" does not mean the product doesn't contain lead...
FCPGA junction solder is specifically exempted in the directives.

Here's a quote from a user at Slashdot, regarding this issue, which may clear up things;

"Yes there is an exception in RoHS for lead solder that has a high melting point. However, the official RoHS rule is that while lead solders in general are prohibited, there is an exception allowing for the use of lead solder that contains at least 90% lead. The idea being that solder with at least 90% lead melted at a higher temperature and was at least somewhat safer if disposed of improperly. Otherwise, potentially there may also have been no replacements for high lead content solders that performed as well when the first RoHS directives were drawn up in 2003. Currently (2008), however, there are lead-free solders that would work, but the lead free solders are more expensive than lead based solders (by roughly three times). Using a lead-free solder with a significantly different composition may also require a new packaging design and another extensive round of qualification, too. I am not totally sure how this would be done.

It get worse, the new solder to be used by nVidia mentioned in this Inq article states that it will only contain 63% lead and 37% tin, making nVidia based cards with this solder not saleable to consumers in the EU according to RoHS directives. The replacement 63Pb/37Sn solder has a somewhat better tensile strength and a lower coefficient of thermal expansion than the older 95Pb/5Sn solder, which may be why nVidia chose this route to fix the problem. Whether nV will be selling very many products in the EU with this fix and whether this will correct the problems, is another issue."

Whether or not it's correct or not, I am not sure, but it seems fairly logical...

Clearly, the random user (:rolleyes:) at Slashdot is too confused about this for it to be worth to pay them any attention...
Anyone can download the RoHS directives & see there's no such silly minimum lead percentage as the random user at /. claims.

largonClearly, the random user (:rolleyes:) at Slashdot is too confused about this for it to be worth to pay them any attention...
Anyone can download the RoHS directives & see there's no such silly minimum lead percentage as the random user at /. claims.

:toast: Someone knows his stuff.

RoHS means NO LEAD.

thpenaltyRoHS means NO LEAD. Except for the following applications:
[huge list]

Fixed.

Guidance on the specific applications of lead, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium and PBDE that are exempt from the requirements of the RoHS Regulations:

(...)

17. Lead in solders to complete a viable electrical connection between semiconductor die and carrier within integrated circuit Flip Chip packages.
Flip chips are attached to their packages or PCBs using very small solder bumps and many types use solder bumps containing lead. Lead is used for two main reasons. Its ductility reduces the risk of damage to brittle parts of flip chip circuitry. Lead also protects against the possibility of thermal fatigue, which results from cyclic temperature changes and is not well understood with lead-free solders. High melting point solder bumps are attached using solder containing typically 37 – 40% lead to the package because this combination has a high resistance to a phenomenon called “electromigration” which in higher power flip chip packages would otherwise cause premature failure of the device. The solder connections to the chip are known as level 1 and level 1 flip-chip connections may contain lead. (...)

Quote from the site of the regulatory department in UK as official EU site (rohs.eu) is broken atm.

I knew solder had exemptions but..... huge list. Wow, I thought solder was the only exemption covering lead. I will visit rohs.eu soon.

Thanks for the linkage. ;)

OnBoardSo any added warranty, or means to prevent this? Those stock cooler early versions (8800GT) are in more risk, if heat is a factor?

If there are 1000 GeForce users and 100 Radeon users, if 20 Radeon cards fail, it becomes a big issue, cause for concern...but if 20 GeForce cards fail, it isn't as big, a smaller proportion failed. Part of Charlie's usual poop-o-rama was that NV goes bankrupt if it's made to replace existing G92 parts. Take it with a crate of salt.

Be optimistic, my G92 survived the Indian summer of 45 C room-temp (when the AC failed for a week). It's full of heart.

full of love or full of <3?

The thing is, there's no reason whatsoever to believe the PCN would have anything to with any type of defect. It's all in Charlie's head.

largonThe thing is, there's no reason whatsoever to believe the PCN would have anything to with any type of defect. It's all in Charlie's head.

I feel the same, it's just precautionary or enhancement. Instead it's an incentive, they're using superior materials now on. I've never heard of a G92 card fail. I remember Charlie whine even back when it was announced 8800 GT cards would use PCBs with lesser layers (because they weren't required, might as well cut costs).

I see the G92s dying for reasons OTHER than the core itself... yeah I have to agree, its in charlie's head =_=

btarunr(...) they're using superior materials now on. (...)

Actually, they're moving to tecnically inferior bump solder. The higher the amount of lead, the better.
The new stuff which has less Pb and more Sn:
- melts at a lower temp
- is more brittle
- has comparably worse thermal chars

largonActually, they're moving to tecnically inferior bump solder. The higher the amount of lead, the better.
The new stuff which has less Pb and more Sn:
- melts at a lower temp
- is more brittle
- has comparably worse thermal chars

Then what makes the product robust :confused:

Why did they switch to this?

The internet tells me such solder flows more readily thus is easier to play with. And I guess they're aiming to reduce lead usage - just like the whole industry.

Too hot = joints come apart from the solder weakening and/or too much expansion and contraction with temp fluctuation.
Which is why the laptop ones are vulnerable b/c no one cools them for shit.

Nvidia's is changing it to prevent this from happening (stronger solder).


That's what I gather from all of this.

My 8800GS runs 80-85c 24/7 and i havent had any problems. My room is usualy about 90f all the time. Charlies head i say.

btarunrBe optimistic, my G92 survived the Indian summer of 45 C room-temp (when the AC failed for a week). It's full of heart.

Ouch, that's hot :eek: Mine ides at 47C and 5 mins with FurMark heats it up to 74C (the higher of GPU-Z temps). Not going to die on me then, not that I was worried, but never hurts to be cautions :)

OnBoardOuch, that's hot :eek: Mine ides at 47C and 5 mins with FurMark heats it up to 74C (the higher of GPU-Z temps). Not going to die on me then, not that I was worried, but never hurts to be cautions :)

With the reference fan at 100%, the GPU would idle (rendering Microsoft Windows) at 65 C. Our summers can be as harsh as your winters :)

TheGuruStudToo hot = joints come apart from the solder weakening and/or too much expansion and contraction with temp fluctuation.
Which is why the laptop ones are vulnerable b/c no one cools them for shit.

Nvidia's is changing it to prevent this from happening (stronger solder).

It's the exact opposite. They're moving into solder that melts at lower temp.

btarunrOur summers can be as harsh as your winters :)

Bad for people, good for overclocks :)

largonIt's the exact opposite. They're moving into solder that melts at lower temp.

Then it's more flexible and won't break away. I didn't say melting, anyway :)

I must agree with the guru. Probably it follows the same principle as anti-hearthquake building structures. More flexible, somehow "weaker" but it doesn't break and you get no (micro)fisures.

Ok, let's try again. The problem isn't the solder as such, the problem that Nvidia is having is that in a notebook, the GPU is heated up and cooled down very frequently, especially as the fans in a notebook are generally set to produce as little noise as possible. This is why some notebook manufacturers have issued BIOS updates, but if you install these BIOS updates, you'll get more fan noise, as the fan will be running at lower temperatures and most likely run at full speed at lower temperatures than before.

This cycle of heating and cooling, with a huge temperature difference within a reasonably short time span is what has caused the solder to crack which in turn has caused the GPU cores to lose connection with the chip packaging. We're not talking the whole GPU losing connection with the graphics card PCB or motherboard PCB here, but rather the tiny little thing ontop of the chip packaging and that's where the problem is.

The same problem could occur on a desktop card, but as desktop cards have a bigger cooler and generally doesn't heat up and cool down as quickly, nor as often as a notebook GPU, it's highly unlikely that anyone will encounter their graphics card failing because of this problem. Yes, it could happen if you turn on and off your system and run some intense 3D application and you repeat this every 10-15min, but I don't know anyone that use their PC in this way.

Nvidia still mucked up and there are potentially a lot of notebooks that could fail because of this, but the question is how many and how soon...