Big_VultureIt is fraud, they cannot do this, it is illegal!

Legal source? :rolleyes:

MelvisThen I guess most of us are still waiting for that better OS to come out

I think that's the situation. Windows 10 is a pretty significant departure from 7. If you look at the progression of the other OS'es out there, the overall product changes in small ways. Just look at how the appearance changes from XP to Vista/7 to 8 to 10. Most people I know don't like that kind of change on their devices, and virtually every major Windows update changes the look, changes the location of everyday things like the shut down buttons (or removes the Start button all together) or moves the control panel settings around, etc. This is all good and fine if the changes make sense, but in the case of Windows 8 and 10, it almost feels like they are rearranging the deck chairs. Every new OS release requires unnecessary reeducation. MS set that trend, and now people are resisting it.

Caring1As long as it functions fine, why bother with updates, most M.S. updates seem to cause issues, which then needs more updates.
From my viewpoint the O.S. should only need a firewall and decent anti-virus if it is running fine.

For example to fix Ryzen issues (everyone waiting for a microcode to fix - e.g. - the "deadly FMA3" bug :D).

Updates on Windows include (are dominated by) fixes for hardware problems and incompatibilities. They are pretty essential.
However, you're right about them causing a lot of issues, but that's difficult to avoid in an open platform. It's much the same with Linux, Android and so on.

Only companies like Apple have the possibility to make full tests of update implications, because they control the hardware.
And even Apple f..ks up from time to time, like with iOS updates that make older phones slow and power-hungry (although most people believe it's done on purpose).

MelvisThen I guess most of us are still waiting for that better OS to come out

All those people are literally 'living the dream' then. Windows 10 is what it is and its here to stay.

W10 is a huge improvement over 7 in many ways. It has some minor drawbacks too. Just like 7 had a couple, and 8. The funny thing is, this thread is entirely NOT about wanting a better OS, its about staying on the same one that is outdated, even beyond its supported timeframe. Again, I feel MS should definitely be supporting Ryzen and Kaby on 8.1, but to request/demand this for 7 is the exact sentiment you can see with people that were still on XP when it went EOL - its pure and utter laziness and a very conscious attempt to pass the limits of what is deemed common sense, while at the same time pointing the finger at the software builder for being evil. It's hypocrisy.

Y'know I was also someone that held off the upgrade until the last possible moment, because I don't feel like early adopting a new OS at all. But when I did move to 10, it had a few hiccups and took some getting used to, but I was also quick to realize that its an improvement over everything that came before it. It is flexible, intuitive, does things automagically that you had to do manual in 7/8, and even does those things in a way that you would probably also do it yourself. When you let 10 do its thing when it wants, like it is designed, you NEVER, and I mean n-e-v-e-r get harassed by Windows Update at some most inconvenient time anymore, you have a rig that boots faster than it ever did before, secures itself well on all ends, and lets you be productive without clicking twenty tabs and option lists to really get it to what you want it to be. The beauty of 10 is that it has been decluttered in every possible way, and adds functionality in its place, while still being customizable and 'open' like every version that preceded it.

Its also mostly in the smaller things, like when you hook up your phone on USB, you don't get this super annoying dialog box forcing you to 'choose' what to do with your media. It recognizes you plugged the same device as before, and does what you want it to do. You need to actually use 10 for a few months to really feel the improvements under the hood as well, like its improved responsiveness which only happens after 10 has done some serious work on your system disk, something it does while your PC is idling.

I have a 10 machine, older dual core Intel, with an HDD and it boots FAST! In fact, I am sure it is faster, way faster, than when I first updated it. 7OS is a HOG, compared to 8.1 and 10. The more 10 runs the better it runs. I did all the youtube tweaks I thought were necessary. In the beginning, it would update all the time and hang on reboot. I would wake up and it would be turned off. But now? No issues I can think of, however, it has been off for a few months, no wifi at home, for the time being.

Whereas, my Linux machines? That was a process of learning, over months, trying to get them 'Tuned'. Which Distro, I have some older CPU's and some of them couldn't handle newer Distro's!

Point being, I concur with the statement above. Just use it as you normally do, and it gets better!! Tunes itself to you and your uses. MS is not the Ideal, neither is Linux or iOS. But, 10 is without doubt the best MS has done. Hell, I have 8.1 on this laptop I am using and still can't find a fault. It does everything I want it to, not the least of it being a smaller footprint that doesn't hog my mid-sized SSD!

I appreciate the vitriol. But, getting all worked up about it is just a waste of energy. Lawsuit? Good Luck.

Windows 7 is on extended support which translates to critical security updates only. Rather than patch them to support the latest hardware, they're saying "LOL NOPE." AMD and Intel can release updates via drivers if they want to but odds are they won't. A lawsuit wouldn't go anywhere because Microsoft has already made it very clear what the product lifecycle is.

Windows 8.1 has mainstream support until the beginning of 2018 so I'm surprised they're not patching that. A lawsuit could be effective there.

Vayra86The reasons do matter.
Now, we could have a debate on dropping the support for 8, but when it comes to 'is this illegal'.... I strongly doubt you'll get Microsoft convicted because of all the reasons I posted earlier.

The problem with your argument is that Extended Windows support is a time point they are LEGALLY liable for. Microsoft is NOT lawfully allowed to dictate what hardware that a user may, or may not, run the software on. They have a legal obligation to provide the support they have committed to for ALL users of their OS lines regardless of platform progression.

Your conclusions are without merit.

lexluthermiesterMicrosoft is NOT lawfully allowed to dictate what hardware that a user may, or may not, run the software on.

Actually, they are. Microsoft is under no legal obligation to support any hardware. It is usually the hardware vendor that has to make their hardware compatible with Windows. In the case of Kaby Lake and Ryzen, it is the vendors deciding to discontinue legacy Windows 7/8.1 support. Microsoft is only providing a courtesy note and mirroring their position. Intel and AMD are aware that Microsoft is continuing to update those older operating systems (especially Windows 8.1). Microsoft isn't calling the shots here.

lexluthermiesterThe problem with your argument is that Extended Windows support is a time point they are LEGALLY liable for. Microsoft is NOT lawfully allowed to dictate what hardware that a user may, or may not, run the software on. They have a legal obligation to provide the support they have committed to for ALL users of their OS lines regardless of platform progression.

Your conclusions are without merit.

Sorry, but do you even listen to yourself?

Vayra86Windows 10 is what it is and its here to stay.

Not if the world refuses to accept it. We, the people, have the ultimate say. We vote with our choices and wallets. And people are NOT voting for Windows 10. Most people dislike it.

Vayra86W10 is a huge improvement over 7 in many ways.

YOUR opinion and not one supported by certain facts, nor supported by popular opinion.

Vayra86It has some minor drawbacks too.

Let's be fair, it has a TON of drawbacks. The keystroke logging[which is blatantly illegal without a warrant where I live], spying and general disregard for user privacy for starters. The cumbersome, unintuitive and at times clunky UI for second. The sheer lack of customization options and the fact that access to a lot of admin options and settings have been hidden or removed for thirds. I could keep going like this, but the general point is that Microsoft is showing us all that they have ZERO respect for us. We do NOT have to tolerate such behavior.

Vayra86Just like 7 had a couple,

Yes a couple, not a TON of them.

Vayra86and 8.

8 was a train wreck of a launch, and made the Vista launch and problems look simply delightful by comparison. And 8.1 was just a slap in the face. The public asked for the start button back, but we wanted the menu that went with it. Instead we click the button and we're taken straight away back to that "tiles" crap. In case you're wondering, that was the Microsoft UI designers way of saying "eff u". And we the public responded accordingly.

Vayra86The funny thing is, this thread is entirely NOT about wanting a better OS

You're right, it's about wanting to stay with an OS that is MUCH easier to use, much more configurable, looks better, and doesn't spy on us[so long as everyone removes the "diagtrack" service that was included in a recent update].

Vayra86its about staying on the same one that is outdated, even beyond its supported timeframe. Again, I feel MS should definitely be supporting Ryzen and Kaby on 8.1, but to request/demand this for 7 is the exact sentiment you can see with people that were still on XP when it went EOL

Except that 7 is one of the most well loved OS's in history[though with Android that is changing]. Windows 8/8.1 was Microsoft's too-little-too-late-me-too grab at the mobile computing market. It was fully crap, rubbish and few liked it. Windows 10 is Microsoft's belligerent unwillingness to accept that the public does not have to like it when they put complete trash on the market.

Vayra86- its pure and utter laziness and a very conscious attempt to pass the limits of what is deemed common sense

Oh? How is it common sense to accept such invasive and disrespectful intrusions to our privacy and rights?

Vayra86, while at the same time pointing the finger at the software builder for being evil. It's hypocrisy.

As mentioned above, much of the telemetry Microsoft is using has already been ruled unlawful in some courts, and the keystroke logging is downright illegal in many areas. How is that not evil? They're committing crimes and because they're a large corporation they are getting away with it. That will not last for long.

Vayra86Y'know I was also someone that held off the upgrade until the last possible moment, because I don't feel like early adopting a new OS at all. But when I did move to 10, it had a few hiccups and took some getting used to, but I was also quick to realize that its an improvement over everything that came before it. It is flexible, intuitive, does things automagically that you had to do manual in 7/8, and even does those things in a way that you would probably also do it yourself. When you let 10 do its thing when it wants, like it is designed, you NEVER, and I mean n-e-v-e-r get harassed by Windows Update at some most inconvenient time anymore, you have a rig that boots faster than it ever did before, secures itself well on all ends, and lets you be productive without clicking twenty tabs and option lists to really get it to what you want it to be. The beauty of 10 is that it has been decluttered in every possible way, and adds functionality in its place, while still being customizable and 'open' like every version that preceded it.

Most of what was said in this paragraph was so lacking in accuracy that it would be laughable if it were not so sad. Clearly you have but a tenuous grip on reality.

This is exactly the kind of "bend me over and do what you like" mentality that is so dangerous to digital security on a personal level. Microsoft is NOT trustworthy. They prove that with every move like this that they make. Is it any wonder that the most dominant OS in use on the planet is Android? Microsoft is killing the PC market, and people like you are helping them. GET a CLUE!

DethroySorry, but do you even listen to yourself?

Do you mean do I proof read my posts, yes. Want to make a point? Use a bit more detail.

lexluthermiesterExtended Windows support is a time point they are LEGALLY liable for

critical security updates only.

See how I finished your sentance? That's the actual limit of what they are liable for. Period.

Did you read what you wrote before you hit "post reply"?

rtwjunkiecritical security updates only.

See how I finished your sentance? That's the actual limit of what they are liable for. Period.

Did you read what you wrote before you hit "post reply"?

By using the term "Extended Support" I was directly implying only security and critical bug fixes. But that is what they've cut off. When I purchased all 5 of my retail copies of Windows 7 I am legally entitled to use those copies of Windows on any system I define. Microsoft does NOT have the authority to refuse support for a product they have already made a public commitment to supporting. That is a point that is supported by several pieces of case law. This action IS unlawful. But let's see if anyone takes them to court. And thank you for reiterating my point.

FYI, perhaps your reading comprehension needs slight improvement.. Just throwing it out there...

lexluthermiesterBy using the term "Extended Support" I was directly implying only security and critical bug fixes. But that is what they've cut off.

They didn't. Users of Windows 7 will still receive security related updates and bugfixes until the end of Windows 7's extended support. Only the users with unsupported hardware won't receive 'em - which leads to your next point:

lexluthermiesterWhen I purchased all 5 of my retail copies of Windows 7 I am legally entitled to use those copies of Windows on any system I define.

1. As long as the hardware makers provide working drivers for its product(s), then yes, feel free to build a machine that uses said hardware. Microsoft is not to be held responsible to ensure that every single piece of hardware works in tandem with its software.
2. Microsoft is not obliged to provide said drivers for its software that is beyond its mainstream support lifecycle.

lexluthermiesterMicrosoft does NOT have the authority to refuse support for a product they have already made a public commitment to supporting.

Microsoft never claimed to add support for the Zen Architecture. AMD did. If you still insist on blaming someone for not supporting software that is on extended support, than it's AMD that is to blame.

Quote from www.pcmag.com/news/351565/amd-ryzen-processors-will-support-windows-7:
"As Microsoft will not add support for new processor architectures to Windows 7, it's up to AMD to produce all of the necessary drivers itself for both the processor and the AM4 socket chipset. It's unclear exactly why AMD would go to the trouble of doing this beyond making Ryzen accessible to the widest possible market. Even so, surely consumers upgrading to a Ryzen-based desktop PC would also opt for a move to Windows 10."

DethroyThey didn't. Users of Windows 7 will still receive security related updates and bugfixes until the end of Windows 7's extended support. Only the users with unsupported hardware won't receive 'em - which leads to your next point:

1. As long as the hardware makers provide working drivers for its product(s), then yes, feel free to build a machine that uses said hardware. Microsoft is not to be held responsible to ensure that every single piece of hardware works in tandem with its software.
2. Microsoft is not obliged to provide said drivers for its software that is beyond its mainstream support lifecycle.

Microsoft never claimed to add support for the Zen Architecture. AMD did. If you still insist on blaming someone for not supporting software that is on extended support, than it's AMD that is to blame.

Quote from www.pcmag.com/news/351565/amd-ryzen-processors-will-support-windows-7:
"As Microsoft will not add support for new processor architectures to Windows 7, it's up to AMD to produce all of the necessary drivers itself for both the processor and the AM4 socket chipset. It's unclear exactly why AMD would go to the trouble of doing this beyond making Ryzen accessible to the widest possible market. Even so, surely consumers upgrading to a Ryzen-based desktop PC would also opt for a move to Windows 10."

You really missed the point of that post. The point is, it is still Microsoft's responsibility to provide the security and critical bug fixes within the scope of "extended support" REGARDLESS of the platform chosen by the user.

Microsoft's responsibility begins and ends with the operating system. Outside of generics (read: SATA, audio, VGA, etc.), Microsoft is not responsible for drivers at all. If AMD and Intel opt not to support that hardware on the operating system you choose to use, then it just isn't going to work or work poorly.

Instead of being outrospective and looking for who to blame, maybe you ought to try introspection instead: why would you buy an 8 year old operating system and installing on hardware that is less than a year old? Hell, it makes more sense to install Windows 10 on 8 year old hardware than it does to install Windows 7 on new hardware. I've done it, repeatedly, and it works great.

FordGT90ConceptMicrosoft's responsibility begins and ends with the operating system. Outside of generics (read: SATA, audio, VGA, etc.), Microsoft is not responsible for drivers at all. If AMD and Intel opt not to support that hardware on the operating system you choose to use, then it just isn't going to work or work poorly.

I never said they're responsible for drivers. SECURITY and CRITICAL BUG fixes within the scope of EXTENDED SUPPORT.

FordGT90ConceptInstead of being outrospective and looking for who to blame, maybe you ought to try introspection instead: why would you buy an 8 year old operating system and installing on hardware that is less than a year old? Hell, it makes more sense to install Windows 10 on 8 year old hardware than it does to install Windows 7 on new hardware. I've done it, repeatedly, and it works great.

You seem to have missed[or deliberately avoiding] the points made earlier.

lexluthermiesterI never said they're responsible for drivers. SECURITY and CRITICAL BUG fixes within the scope of EXTENDED SUPPORT.

But only on hardware that is supported in the first place. Just like Apple only supports its latest IOS versions on newer hardware.

DethroyBut only on hardware that is supported in the first place. Just like Apple only supports its latest IOS versions on newer hardware.

What rubbish! That analogy fails in two important ways. First; PC's are modular and upgradable by design, generally. iPhones/iPads are not. Second, Apple has faithfully and diligently supported their iOS devices as long as the hardware can support the software. And before you say it, Windows 7 runs flawlessly on KabyLake/Ryzen hardware, as does Windows Vista and XP for that matter.

Stop arguing at points that have no sensible logic. This decision is one in a LONG series of blunders and pathetic choices Microsoft has made. Quit defending them.

lexluthermiesterWhat rubbish! That analogy fails in two important ways. First; PC's are modular and upgradable by design, generally. iPhones/iPads are not.

Even though PCs are modular and upgradable, that doesn't mean that already succeeded software needs to support any possible future hardware release. And in Windows 7's case, Microsoft has no obligation to support new hardware for its software that is running on extended support.

lexluthermiesterStop arguing a points that have no sensible logic.

Phycisian, heal thyself.

Vayra86All those people are literally 'living the dream' then. Windows 10 is what it is and its here to stay.

W10 is a huge improvement over 7 in many ways. It has some minor drawbacks too. Just like 7 had a couple, and 8. The funny thing is, this thread is entirely NOT about wanting a better OS, its about staying on the same one that is outdated, even beyond its supported timeframe. Again, I feel MS should definitely be supporting Ryzen and Kaby on 8.1, but to request/demand this for 7 is the exact sentiment you can see with people that were still on XP when it went EOL - its pure and utter laziness and a very conscious attempt to pass the limits of what is deemed common sense, while at the same time pointing the finger at the software builder for being evil. It's hypocrisy.

Y'know I was also someone that held off the upgrade until the last possible moment, because I don't feel like early adopting a new OS at all. But when I did move to 10, it had a few hiccups and took some getting used to, but I was also quick to realize that its an improvement over everything that came before it. It is flexible, intuitive, does things automagically that you had to do manual in 7/8, and even does those things in a way that you would probably also do it yourself. When you let 10 do its thing when it wants, like it is designed, you NEVER, and I mean n-e-v-e-r get harassed by Windows Update at some most inconvenient time anymore, you have a rig that boots faster than it ever did before, secures itself well on all ends, and lets you be productive without clicking twenty tabs and option lists to really get it to what you want it to be. The beauty of 10 is that it has been decluttered in every possible way, and adds functionality in its place, while still being customizable and 'open' like every version that preceded it.

Its also mostly in the smaller things, like when you hook up your phone on USB, you don't get this super annoying dialog box forcing you to 'choose' what to do with your media. It recognizes you plugged the same device as before, and does what you want it to do. You need to actually use 10 for a few months to really feel the improvements under the hood as well, like its improved responsiveness which only happens after 10 has done some serious work on your system disk, something it does while your PC is idling.

Again your saying its outdated, its not outdated, the only reason any OS is outdated is because MS has made it out dated, you have to realise this. This is how we the consumer have been pushed and forced to use an OS which is and was running perfectly fine with even less issue then W10 ever has. I for one like an OS to do what I tell it to do, not the other way around. I run a W10 PC and use it every day ever since it came out, its my main work station, does it do the job? yes it does, does it do it well? no it doesnt. I have to continually move back to or boot into W7 for tasks W10 wont let me to do, sorry...... again I tell the OS what to do, not it tell me what to do.

I have to disagree on the whole never get hassled by Windows updates as if you want to do a quick restart or turn the computer off u have no choice but to apply the updates that are sitting there, so annoying!! and since W10 (unless your on a SSD) is such a slow OS it can take some serious time to update. At least with 7 I can tell the OS to restart without doing the updates, anyone should know that Windows loves been rebooted after installing or uninstalling a program, but to then have to wait for the updates to install because I cant get around it with W10, fuck me.

Again i totally disagree I think W10 is a cluster fuck, it is in no ways a simple OS, it is even harder to use out of the box then 7. All you have to do is sit down with customers and clients to realise this, just been able to do basic tasks now is made harder as you have to go find them as there hidden away, the entire lay out is a disaster, nothing is grouped together in sections to find what your looking for its spread between two different panels and which one is hidden, it just makes it confusing for the every day user WHICH the OS is intender for, not us tech savvy people who can find these things and then set it up so the end user can now get to this and that without pulling there hair out trying to find it.

Try changing the folder structure in windows 10 (Documents/Music/Photos etc) and tell the OS to save (automatically) into that folder structure to a different location, ever since the Anniversary update it is now impossible to do so, again its telling me what i can do when I should be telling it what to do. Also there might be some update that W10 wants you to install and every time the OS boots its coming up on screen to say hey update here do it!, I dont want to W10 hence why I have ignored it so stop telling me very friggin time I boot. At least W7 wont annoy the shit out of you for that, if there is an update you go have a look and then decided if you want to apply it or not, its not going to stick its head out every time you turn on your PC. Yes I know i can tell it to stop but the point is I shouldnt have to in the first place!

Yes W0 has got some features that are better then 7 thats a no brainer but they could of simply implemented that into an older OS that has already proven its self time and time again to be a stable, simple, non confusing OS for the every day users. Will I have to use W10 in the future? yes of course I will, why? because im forced to do so. Does W10 run like a beast on new hardware? yes it does ive built a Intel 6700 system on an SSD and it was very fast and smooth, does it run as good on older hardware? no it doesnt, which then inturns forces me to upgrade my allready powerful Hardware to use with an OS that has made even 3yr old Software obsolete.

I had really high hopes for W10 I really did, I was hopeing this was going to be the OS that knocks W7 out of the park and be the most user friendly and most compatible OS to date and have within a yr and a half been the most used OS on the planet like 7 was, but sadly it hasnt lived up to my expectations at all and many other people around the world also hence the 48% of people still on W7, numbers win!

MelvisTry changing the folder structure in windows 10 (Documents/Music/Photos etc) and tell the OS to save (automatically) into that folder structure to a different location, ever since the Anniversary update it is now impossible to do so,

Negative. You can still change all those locations of those libraries mentioned, and W10 continues to save to those locations, be it the download folder, pictures, documents, etc. And all since the Anniversary update.

rtwjunkieNegative. You can still change all those locations of those libraries mentioned, and W10 continues to save to those locations, be it the download folder, pictures, documents, etc. And all since the Anniversary update.

Well they must of patched that recently as that wasnt the case when the Anniversary edition first came out.

MelvisWell they must of patched that recently as that wasnt the case when the Anniversary edition first came out.

Yep, that's entirely plausible. I stayed on 1511 until January. I figured they needed 6 months th work out 1607 bugs.

rtwjunkieYep, that's entirely plausible. I stayed on 1511 until January. I figured they needed 6 months th work out 1607 bugs.

As much criticism as I've rendered at Win10, I have been playing around with it. I'm using 1607 ATM and have been force tweaking it to run in a manner that is acceptable from a personal security perspective. It's close but not quite there. The UI problems are being worked on as well but it's slow going. I am just not willing to let go of options, controls and utilities that I use. This is my PC and I'm NEVER going to let anyone else[Microsoft included] control it.