Tuesday, May 30th 2017

Intel's Skylake-X, Kaby Lake-X HEDT CPUs to use TIM; Won't be Soldered

If you had your eyes on those new Intel HEDT processors, which were posted just today with some... Interesting... price-points, you'll be a little miffed to know that Intel has gone on and done it again. The few cents per unit that soldering the CPU would add to the manufacturing costs of Intel's HEDT processors (starting at $999, tray-friendly prices) could definitely bring the blue giant to the red. As such, the company has decided to do away with solder even on its HEDT line of high-performance, eye-wateringly-expensive CPUs in favor of their dreaded TIM.

The news have been confirmed by der8auer, a renowned overclocker. And as you have probably seen in our own VSG's review (and if you haven't shame on you and click that link right away), delidding Intel's CPU's and ridding them of their TIM can improve temperatures by up to a staggering 21 ºC (case in point, an i7-7700K). And that's a quad-core CPU; imagine an Intel Core i9-7980XE 18-core processor sitting under that TIM, and overclocking it to boot. Those are more than four times the cores under an equally bad thermal interface; add to that the likely presence of a thermally-insulating air-gap, and you can imagine where this is going. If you are planning on going for Intel's HEDT platform, you better take those delidding tools off your shelf.

Update: Check this video here for some more information. Turns out both Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X will make use of the referred TIM, but Skylake-X dies, which make use of a stacked PCB, won't be deliddable with current tools. A new tool is going to be developed by der8auer alongside ASUS for these chips.
Source: Overclock 3D
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72 Comments on Intel's Skylake-X, Kaby Lake-X HEDT CPUs to use TIM; Won't be Soldered

#26
BorisDG
Those CPUs are joke. TIM, 28 lanes and up to 11MB cache... lol
Posted on Reply
#27
mcraygsx
BorisDGThose CPUs are joke. TIM, 28 lanes and up to 11MB cache... lol
They are suppose to rebalanced their cache hierarchy but I would like to see reviews on it asap. But my concern is more towards PCI Express 30 lanes. Consumer have to shell out for top tiers 7900X in order to get 44 Lanes.

On Side Note I think there is a mistake on this chart. Look at the memory support for 7800X. Unless i7 7800X is unique its memory support is 1200Mhz effective.

Posted on Reply
#28
Solidstate89
That's honestly complete bullshit. There's no technical reason to do so as the main reason why Intel abandoned solder in their mainstream lineup was that the dies were so small they were liable to crack if you use solder instead of TIM.

But to do it with their HEDT line-up as well is just stupid and greedy.
Posted on Reply
#29
BorisDG
40 lanes you mean, not 44.
Posted on Reply
#30
Solidstate89
BorisDG40 lanes you mean, not 44.
No, he definitely means 44.

Posted on Reply
#31
Raghar
BorisDGThose CPUs are joke. TIM, 28 lanes and up to 11MB cache... lol
6+8 = 14MB instead of 15MB
8+11 = 19MB instead of 20 MB.
And caches are no longer inclusive. Which we don't know how well it would work. I think Intel did mistake of not having large L3 cache. These cores require larger data pool. And when these CPUs ran with only two cores active, large L3 caches wer VERY helpful. (Do you remember that mainstream CPU with 128 MB L4 cache?)
Posted on Reply
#32
RejZoR
GasarakiYeah... you have no idea what you are talking about.
And your wannabe smug comment shows you don't either. The reason why I said AS5 is because it has very long durability. Unlike normal grease which dries up, cracks and becomes useless. You don't want that in an enclosed IHS that can't be easily replaced. AS5 has 10 years lifespan as far as I can rmemeber. That's why. But sure, I don't have a clue...

I'm not gonna be expecting liquid metal either knowing how stingy Intel is. On 4 digits priced CPU's. Then again, they should use TIM: One more reason to go with AMD instead...
Posted on Reply
#33
mcraygsx
Raghar6+8 = 14MB instead of 15MB
8+11 = 19MB instead of 20 MB.
And caches are no longer inclusive. Which we don't know how well it would work. I think Intel did mistake of not having large L3 cache. These cores require larger data pool. And when these CPUs ran with only two cores active, large L3 caches wer VERY helpful. (Do you remember that mainstream CPU with 128 MB L4 cache?)
Remember when C2D Extreme Edition used 4MB of L2 cache. And this CPU is very responsive till this day.

Posted on Reply
#34
Ruru
S.T.A.R.S.
Solidstate89That's honestly complete bullshit. There's no technical reason to do so as the main reason why Intel abandoned solder in their mainstream lineup was that the dies were so small they were liable to crack if you use solder instead of TIM.

But to do it with their HEDT line-up as well is just stupid and greedy.
Yup, Presler & Wolfdale dies for example were small also and they were soldered back then.
Posted on Reply
#36
VSG
Editor, Reviews & News
RejZoRAnd your wannabe smug comment shows you don't either. The reason why I said AS5 is because it has very long durability. Unlike normal grease which dries up, cracks and becomes useless. You don't want that in an enclosed IHS that can't be easily replaced. AS5 has 10 years lifespan as far as I can rmemeber. That's why. But sure, I don't have a clue...

I'm not gonna be expecting liquid metal either knowing how stingy Intel is. On 4 digits priced CPU's. Then again, they should use TIM: One more reason to go with AMD instead...
A lot of companies use a common base of thermal paste, including retail products and also stock solutions. We are talking industrial companies such as Dow Corning, ShinEtsu, Schlegel, Ziitek etc. I can't speak for all of them, but the ones I know of all have a requirement to be stable for a minimum period of 6 years and 20-25k operation hours given the much harsher conditions for the industrial applications they are intended for, so the vast majority of thermal pastes used by companies already follow this. The exceptions are those that tinker around and come up either with a modified formulation or a new one entirely, such as SentraTeam and their phase change PCM.

The stock TIM Intel uses is among the more reliable already, and actually has a higher thermal conductivity than AS-5. That was why I was saying it makes zero sense to switch over to that specific retail TIM.
Posted on Reply
#37
FireFox
The Power Of Intel
fynxerHow can you not be amazed by Intel's lack of respect towards their HEDT customers.
P4-630I mean more like, how do you feel like that intel used crappy TIM once again on these expensive CPU's?
mcraygsxI am being direct but INTEL has a good history of utilizing cheap TIM on their past mainstream CPU's haswell,skylake,kabylake etc.
RejZoRSeriously Intel? A freaking TIM instead of solder or other more durable solution? And we all know they'll be using the most garbage TIM they get from china in generic buckets..
That is why Intel is so popular:roll:
Posted on Reply
#38
BorisDG
Raghar(Do you remember that mainstream CPU with 128 MB L4 cache?)
Yes, pretty much best gaming CPU right now on the market. :) (Source: Overclock.net)
Posted on Reply
#39
Solaris17
Super Dainty Moderator
Dj-ElectriCI'm a little broken by this.
but not any more broken then we already were amiright? /elbowjab
Posted on Reply
#40
JalleR
Solaris17Honestly, not even being sarcastic, good. Now I wont crack the core.
Exactly, and that is why my 5930K isn't De-lidded... if it had tim it would be by now
Posted on Reply
#41
Hood
So what? Overclocking is a hobby, not a way of life. In the game of CPU one-up-man-ship, factory clocks are already very close to the speed the chip can comfortably run. Most OCing is a joke these days, so maybe this is a way to separate the noobs from the hard-core guys, by requiring a delid to get serious OCs. As others here have noted, that requires either huge balls or a large trust fund when delidding $1000-$2000 hardware!
Posted on Reply
#42
CandymanGR
RejZoRAnd your wannabe smug comment shows you don't either. The reason why I said AS5 is because it has very long durability. Unlike normal grease which dries up, cracks and becomes useless. You don't want that in an enclosed IHS that can't be easily replaced. AS5 has 10 years lifespan as far as I can rmemeber. That's why. But sure, I don't have a clue...

I'm not gonna be expecting liquid metal either knowing how stingy Intel is. On 4 digits priced CPU's. Then again, they should use TIM: One more reason to go with AMD instead...
There is Arctic MX4 which performs great and lasts very long (8 years). I am using it for all my clients hardware for years. Never failed, never dissapointed me.

Liquid metal is overrated.

AS5 is shit.
Posted on Reply
#43
Bandalo
So do we have an unconfirmed rumor here? Or does someone actually have these chips in their hands already and have de-lidded them to check?

Second, why is everyone jumping to conclusions? Has anyone seen benchmarks? Power draw? Temps?
Posted on Reply
#44
Ruru
S.T.A.R.S.
BandaloSo do we have an unconfirmed rumor here? Or does someone actually have these chips in their hands already and have de-lidded them to check?

Second, why is everyone jumping to conclusions? Has anyone seen benchmarks? Power draw? Temps?
This is already posted on the OP.

Posted on Reply
#45
Bandalo
9700 ProThis is already posted on the OP.

Which models did he de-lid? Were there any other benchmarks or before/after temps posted?
Posted on Reply
#46
Solaris17
Super Dainty Moderator
BandaloWhich models did he de-lid? Were there any other benchmarks or before/after temps posted?
He literally says in the video.
Posted on Reply
#47
R0H1T
Not sure if this was listed elsewhere but 64x PCIe 3.0 lanes for x399 :respect:
Posted on Reply
#48
biffzinker
BandaloSo do we have an unconfirmed rumor here? Or does someone actually have these chips in their hands already and have de-lidded them to check?

Second, why is everyone jumping to conclusions? Has anyone seen benchmarks? Power draw? Temps?
I was under the impression it was only for the quad core HEDT CPUs aka Core i7-7740K, and Core i5-7640K. Everything else above in the product stack is still soldered.
Posted on Reply
#49
Raghar
biffzinkerI was under the impression it was only for the quad core HEDT CPUs aka Core i7-7740K, and Core i5-7640K. Everything else above in the product stack is still soldered.
I asked der8auer on youtube and he said all of them are with thermal paste.
Posted on Reply
#50
TheoneandonlyMrK
Solidstate89No, he definitely means 44.

-4 for the chipset interface means 40 for you to use or 24 for the i7 7820K , one can do two full bandwith dual gpus , one cannot and given their both HEDT thats not good enough to me, neither is Shitty tim for direct mounting a IHS.
good luck selling a shit ton of these intel, the potential for customer(admittedly uneducated) complaint here due to this memory slot wont work or pciex wont work is ridiculous.

oh look an official intel slide, showing what they planned with the added "shit threadripper you guys, tut" additions that you cant buy for another few months pretty much slapped on top.
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