Wednesday, July 12th 2017

Intel Says AMD EPYC Processors "Glued-together" in Official Slide Deck

So, yes, Intel, I think the AMD engineers who have developed the Zen architecture from the ground-up would take issue with that. Especially when AMD's "Glued-together" dies actually wipe the proverbial floor with the blue company's chips in power-performance ratios, and deliver much better multi-threaded performance than Intel's offerings. Not bad for a "Glued-together" solution, I'd say.

Our resident W1zzard had this to say regarding AMD's latest CPUs: "The SenseMi power-management system seems to be working well in idle, with the 8-core machine drawing the same amount of power as Intel's quad-core "Kaby Lake" machine." And "At stock speeds, the energy-efficiency of Ryzen is truly phenomenal. Prime95 loads all cores and threads on the chip, and the Ryzen ends up with as much power draw as the quad-core Intel i7-7700K. The high power draw result of the overclocked chip is due to the increased voltage needed to achieve stable operation." And let's not forget this: This is epic. We're assuming you've sifted through our game-test results before seeing this page, and so you'll find that the gaming power draw of the 8-core Ryzen makes Intel's quad-core i7-7700K look bad. Power draw is as much as 30W lesser! Ryzen is hands down the most energy-efficient performance CPU AMD ever made, and easily outclasses Intel's 14 nm "leadership." Good show."
On SMT implementation between AMD's SMT and Intel's HT, Intel is basically comparing a $2,200 8-core Xeon to AMD's usually $499 Ryzen 7 1800X. They are correct in terms of core parity there, at least, but I think it goes more against Intel's customer fleecing in core/price ratios than anything else. And it's certainly a coincidence that for Intel to achieve these SMT implementation scaling numbers, which paints them in good light, they had to down-clock the Ryzen 1800X to 2.2 GHz. So, yes. Even though independent review sites have put AMD's EPYC 7601 SMT-powered improvement in various workloads at a 24% average improvement, and Intel's Xeon 8176 falls short of that at 19.58% (even rounding AMD's score down and Intel's up, that's still how big the gap is.)
Here, Intel is comparing their server-grade processors with AMD's Ryzen, desktop processors gaming woes, which really, is one of the best examples of comparing apples to oranges that I've seen in a long time. So AMD's server platform will require optimizations as well because Ryzen did, for incomparably different workloads? History does inform the future, but not to the extent that Intel is putting it here to, certainly. Putting things in the same perspective, is Intel saying that their Xeon ecosystem sees gaming-specific optimizations?
Ah, the "Glued-together" dies. Let's forget how AMD's Zen cores actually look like they were architected from the get-go for modularity and scaling, which has allowed the company to keep die-sizes to a minimum and yields to a maximum. This means that from a same-sized wafer, AMD can make more Ryzen/EPYC processors (because yes, that's the beauty of it, they're almost interchangeable), and in all likelihood, have more of those full-fledged dies without any defects that affect yields.

This is one of the reasons why AMD is able to offer an unlocked, true 8-core, 16-thread CPU in the Ryzen 7 1700 at less than Intel's 4-core, 8-thread i7 7700K (which consumes more power) - but also because AMD is democratizing access to cores while Intel maximized profits at the consumer's cost for almost a decade. And Infinity Fabric, which AMD also has implemented in their Vega architecture and will probably be used for the company's Zen-based APUs and next-gen Navi graphics architecture, is only glue. Intel would certainly like to be so lucky, since AMD's Infinity Fabric actually delivers more bandwidth than their UPI (Ultra Path Interconnect.)
Here, Intel are telling us how much better for the customer it is to be hard-locked to Intel's ecosystem for virtualization, since "VMs running on Intel Xeon processor compute pools can only live migrate to other Intel VM Pools". It's like they're saying "just imagine the amount of work you'll have to migrate these to AMD. Better remain with us."

Update: As some users pointed out, I used Ryzen 7 1800X power consumption figures as an example, instead of EPYC (those pictures are right here now.)
However, I consider that Intel themselves opened that door when they compared their Xeon, $2,200 offering with AMD's sub $499 Ryzen 7 1800X, which isn't a server CPU (and they down-clocked it to boot, let's not forget that.) That said, for comparison and fairness purposes, I'll just leave these here, courtesy of Anandtech, comparing dual Xeon systems (E5-2699 and the new Xeon 8176) with a dual EPYC 7601 system:

Performance in POV-Ray:
And maximum power consumption on the same application:
So essentially, AMD has 8 more cores, 16 more threads, delivers 16% more performance than Intel's e5-2699 system and 32% more performance than Intel's "non glued-together" Xeon 8176. AMD's chip does all that while consuming 23% less power than the Xeon e5-2699, and 28% less than the Xeon 8176. Not too shabby. I'll take my CPUs with this kind of glue any day.

Check the full press slides in the source. There's an interesting read there, even if there are those chuckle-worthy Intel comments that look like grappling at straws when real arguments are absent. But hey, that's this editor's interpretation. I reserve myself the right to be wrong, and to be slightly emotional at these underhanded tactics. It's just plain disrespectful for a company which stands on its engineers' shoulders to deride another's with no compelling argument.
Sources: Computerbase.de, Reddit, AnandTech SMT Integer Performance
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159 Comments on Intel Says AMD EPYC Processors "Glued-together" in Official Slide Deck

#26
jigar2speed
DeathtoGnomesits "Ryzen PRO" :D
More like Thread Ripper :toast:
Posted on Reply
#27
ensabrenoir
What next Intel.... RGB heat spreaders and racing stripes ....this is almost too bad to be true like Intel doing it on purpose. Maybe in there is an angle in the long game I'm not seeing.
Posted on Reply
#28
DeathtoGnomes
jigar2speedMore like Thread Ripper :toast:
You should know what version means here, AMDs Ryzen version 2 is the PRO market. Threadripper is another socket, considered another tier. Version 3 could be considered the APU chips later this year.
Posted on Reply
#29
FrustratedGarrett
AMD themselves underestimated Ryzen and thought it was only about 40% faster than Bulldozer, core-to-core. That's why they released 2-CCX chips first. The truth of the matter is, Ryzen is a huge success for AMD. Jim Keller and his team did an excellent job. It's a shame Jim and most of his team have left AMD.

I don't think AMD will be able to remain competitive in the long run. Look at what happened to their graphics products after they let their Canadian graphics IP team leave, back in 2012, and moved their graphics design operations to China: GCN after 5 years is still pretty much the same, with a few improvements here and there.
Nvidia's Pascal chips hold a big advantage over GCN both in terms of performance/power and performance/die size.
Posted on Reply
#30
S@LEM!
here we go again Intel PR :D

Posted on Reply
#31
DeathtoGnomes
FrustratedGarrettAMD themselves underestimated Ryzen and thought it was only about 40% faster than Bulldozer, core-to-core. That's why they released 2-CCX chips first. The truth of the matter is, Ryzen is a huge success for AMD. Jim Keller and his team did an excellent job. It's a shame Jim and most of his team have left AMD.

I don't think AMD will be able to remain competitive in the long run. Look at what happened to their graphics products after they let their Canadian graphics IP team leave, back in 2012, and moved their graphics design operations to China: GCN after 5 years is still pretty much the same, with a few improvements here and there.
Nvidia's today holds a massive advantage over GCN both in terms of performance/power and performance/die size.
define "long run". If its what I think you mean, not only will AMD remain competitive, it will push Intel to reconsider their strategy and maybe we will see another price war. It hard to say at this point, who will claim "the lead", I dont care one way or the other, but maybe the result will be that we some real far fetched innovation beyond anything we seen so far.
Posted on Reply
#33
bug
@Raevenlord You really had to illustrate a comment about Epyc with Ryzen benchmarks?

To everybody else, go read Anandtech's review. While Intel worded this disingenuously (to put it mildly), there are drawbacks to AMD's approach which show when looking at enterprise CPUs. They're still well worth their money, as that review concludes.

And as noted at Arstechnica, since Intel keeps segmenting their offer by features, it can be safely assumed they're not currently feeling that much heat from Epyc.
Posted on Reply
#34
Octopuss
Someone explain the glue thing to me, because I don't see anything like that mentioned in the post.
Posted on Reply
#35
EarthDog
bug@Raevenlord You really had to illustrate a comment about Epyc with Ryzen benchmarks?

To everybody else, go read Anandtech's review. While Intel worded this disingenuously (to put it mildly), there are drawbacks to AMD's approach which show when looking at enterprise CPUs. They're still well worth their money, as that review concludes.

And as noted at Arstechnica, since Intel keeps segmenting their offer by features, it can be safely assumed they're not currently feeling that much heat from Epyc.
Ahhhh, light in a very dark room...

Should name this a 'Zen' thread for AMD users now... :)
Posted on Reply
#36
TheLostSwede
News Editor
OctopussSomeone explain the glue thing to me, because I don't see anything like that mentioned in the post.
I guess you didn't read the slides then?
Posted on Reply
#37
LogitechFan
all the butthurt amd girls above tho :D Happy just to see amd back on intel slides? I thought you know better?!

And by the way, by the way.... it IS glued together, like it or not ;)
Posted on Reply
#38
OneCool
Now the glue is being disruptive!!
Posted on Reply
#39
ShurikN
bug1p

And as noted at Arstechnica, since Intel keeps segmenting their offer by features, it can be safely assumed they're not currently feeling that much heat from Epyc.
If they didn't feel the heat, they wouldn't have made those slides.
Posted on Reply
#40
Vya Domus
Hold on to your 7700K mates ! The Xeons are taking over for gaming ! Intel says so , along with "premium VR" and "12K gaming". God bless.

Damn these slides remind me of the 90's. Using red crosses on competing products , wish they could include the buzzing sound as well. Marketing is rock bottom at Intel apparently. They got to take some of them billions and put them in there.

This must be a joke right ?
Posted on Reply
#41
Raevenlord
News Editor
bug@Raevenlord You really had to illustrate a comment about Epyc with Ryzen benchmarks?

To everybody else, go read Anandtech's review. While Intel worded this disingenuously (to put it mildly), there are drawbacks to AMD's approach which show when looking at enterprise CPUs. They're still well worth their money, as that review concludes.

And as noted at Arstechnica, since Intel keeps segmenting their offer by features, it can be safely assumed they're not currently feeling that much heat from Epyc.
Intel opened that door when they themselves offered the comparison with the R7 1800X in their slides, comparing a Xeon with a Ryzen.

However, if you read that Anandtech article, you know that server and Epyc-wise, it's kind of the same:

Posted on Reply
#42
silentbogo


Lol.
This move actually reminds me of similar campaign strategies AMD pulled in its worst days. Next thing you know - Intel will start each of their tech presentations and demos with a lengthy list of achievements and innovation they brought into the world over the past half-a-century, and how unfair the market is :D

Now, imagine what's going to follow with Kaby Lake G release, which expected to arrive on the market soon, featuring a catchy "mix and match" heterogenous design.
Posted on Reply
#43
TheGuruStud
jigar2speedPretty sure someone at Intel was just desperate. This is just starting, AMD has not come out with their Version 2 Ryzen.

Also, you know you`re doing the right thing when competition trash talks you instead of showing performance numbers
The new "scalable architecture" is tanking. IPC has decreased for the stuff their fanboys cry about like gaming. It's below broadwell IPC, apparently lol
Posted on Reply
#44
_JP_
bugAnd as noted at Arstechnica, since Intel keeps segmenting their offer by features, it can be safely assumed they're not currently feeling that much heat from Epyc.
That or denial...
LogitechFanAnd by the way, by the way.... it IS glued together, like it or not ;)
And the question is: What is a UPI?
Intel's IMC better deliver, otherwise its proposition will fall flat on its face.
Posted on Reply
#45
Mattfucj
Holy crap Intel, ugly. You already lost my money this year (I do dozens of builds) keep it up and you'll lose me for life.
Posted on Reply
#46
Raevenlord
News Editor
EarthDogAhhhh, light in a very dark room...

Should name this a 'Zen' thread for AMD users now... :)
EarthDog, updated the story, I suppose you'll like it better this way =)

Though as you see, there was no obfuscation there. Those figures actually make Intel look worse.
Posted on Reply
#47
dozenfury
A larger takeaway for me is that it's a good sign that AMD is being mentioned as a competitor. For years Intel has basically just completely ignored them as irrelevant in slides and marketing. I still have some doubts about Ryzen and Threadripper performance, and 30w nowadays isn't much to a datacenter (disk frames are the real power hogs). But being in the ballpark again is a big plus.
Posted on Reply
#49
TheLaughingMan
dozenfuryA larger takeaway for me is that it's a good sign that AMD is being mentioned as a competitor. For years Intel has basically just completely ignored them as irrelevant in slides and marketing. I still have some doubts about Ryzen and Threadripper performance, and 30w nowadays isn't much to a datacenter (disk frames are the real power hogs). But being in the ballpark again is a big plus.
Its also a good selling point if it holds up on release. Data center with chip counts in the hundreds or thousands looking to spend millions on a upgrade, AMD looks good if they can throw a cherry on top with "Well you also save tens of thousands or kWh in power use each month too."
Posted on Reply
#50
Vya Domus
Something else that I noticed :


"Repurposed desktop product for server" ? :kookoo:

Isn't it the other way around ? Zen architecture was clearly designed to be multipurpose with an emphasis on the server side of things. And isn't the new line of Xeons using the same architecture as the desktop Skylake-X ? Haven't they done supposedly the same thing in this case ?

I keep wondering if they do not care or that they really have no idea what to do. They are a business after all.
Posted on Reply
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