Vayra86Whatever gets said in a press release and what then happens on the marketplace are two different things. Everyone knew exactly what was going to happen and if you didn't, or if you deny this like you are, you're utterly blind.

Vayra86The only thing I can distill from your response thus far, is that Nvidia's spin on the FE has worked very well in your case, just like I was pointing out.

Which goes to show that the average Joe has no idea whats going on most of the time and can be easily influenced.

People only care about these sort of things when they get picked up by the press and turned into hot controversial subjects. This is why I am so annoyed by this whole thing , maybe AMD did in fact had bad intentions with Vega pricing just like Nvidia but the fact that the press only picks on them infuriates me. Selectively calling out on anti consumers practices does more damage than any of these companies could have done by themselves. You are essentially giving someone a pass to rip you off.

The Vya/Vayra tag team is in rare form today - you two should start your own blog - you could call it "AMD Apologist's Club", or maybe "How about some Whine with that Cheesy GPU". I'm sure you'd be a big hit since their are thousands just like you, endlessly crying about how life isn't fair. It's not, you're right about that at least. Keep trying, though, maybe life will become fair if everyone bitches enough...and maybe AMD will finally make a competitive GPU, though it's long odds against either scenario. Thanks for the entertainment, AMD, keep it coming. And thank you, Vya/Vayra, you're always good for a laugh. Leave Average Joe alone - he can't help it. Maybe you're Average Joe, if you were, you wouldn't know it, since, as you said, "the average Joe has no idea whats going on most of the time".

I , too , have to thank you for proving to me once again that you are nothing more than a troll or a very poorly informed individual shrouded by fanboyism , all your comments are completely void of any sort of meaning.

But don't worry so much about me , my ignore list was always open for submissions from people like you. ;)

Vya DomusWhich goes to show that the average Joe has no idea whats going on most of the time and can be easily influenced.

People only care about these sort of things when they get picked up by the press and turned into hot controversial subjects. This is why I am so annoyed by this whole thing , maybe AMD did in fact had bad intentions with Vega pricing just like Nvidia but the fact that the press only picks on them infuriates me. Selectively calling out on anti consumers practices does more damage than any of these companies could have done by themselves. You are essentially giving someone a pass to rip you off.

Perhaps if AMD could deliver on the goods at the rate nvidia does, then nvidia would be called out more.

AMD gets called out because of it's own incompetence on top of the issue. Nvidia jacked up prices to what the market would bear after their competitor basically stopped competing. AMD jacked up the prices MORE ($200 vs $100) and delivered a product that doesnt effectively compete with a 15 month old part from its competition, after multiple delays and a weaksauce "excuse" of "we wanted to have proper supply" which laster a whole 5 minutes.

Guarantee that if vega 64 performed on the level of a 1080ti or titan vs a 1080, people woldnt make nearly as much fuss about it. But AMD consistently fails to deliver on products, and has been competitively down and out since 2014.

The "press" didnt really harp on prices too much for nvidia because the MSRP for third parties was cheaper then the FE, and generally third party cards were 70-100 cheaper then FE cards, and availability was quite good after the prerequisite "not available" ness of the first three months, which happens to every piece of tech in existence.

TheinsanegamerNGuarantee that if vega 64 performed on the level of a 1080ti or titan vs a 1080, people woldnt make nearly as much fuss about it.

Which makes everyone complaining about this a hypocrite. Period.

Sorry to say it but it's the truth , you are either totally against these practices or you shut up.

And as I said a million times , you can simply go to your favorite retailer , look at prices and you buy what you want. No one is trying to scam you.

HoodThe Vya/Vayra tag team is in rare form today - you two should start your own blog - you could call it "AMD Apologist's Club", or maybe "How about some Whine with that Cheesy GPU". I'm sure you'd be a big hit since their are thousands just like you, endlessly crying about how life isn't fair. It's not, you're right about that at least. Keep trying, though, maybe life will become fair if everyone bitches enough...and maybe AMD will finally make a competitive GPU, though it's long odds against either scenario. Thanks for the entertainment, AMD, keep it coming. And thank you, Vya/Vayra, you're always good for a laugh. Leave Average Joe alone - he can't help it. Maybe you're Average Joe, if you were, you wouldn't know it, since, as you said, "the average Joe has no idea whats going on most of the time".

We're a team now? :D

I think all I said was, they both employ underhand pricing schemes, and they really aren't hard to see. Nowhere did I 'apologize' for AMD, I just counter the argument that Nvidia is not doing the exact same.

About fairness in life, absolutely true, nothing's fair, its just a marketplace; did I ever say the opposite? Did Vya? I can't recall crying about it. Your reading comprehension seems off.

Vayra86Everyone's reading comprehension seems off.

I'm sorry but you just didn't show enough hatred towards AMD for you not to be called an AMD apologist (my guess is not enough foam at the mouth) ... you might as well put on your 'I :love: radeon' t-shirt now :laugh: ... and I fixed your statement for you (don't mention it)

... and now without sarcasm: Vega pricing, supply, power usage and drivers all suck (no particular order).

Vayra86Whatever gets said in a press release and what then happens on the marketplace are two different things. Everyone knew exactly what was going to happen and if you didn't, or if you deny this like you are, you're utterly blind.

Provide some examples to show us how false it was, I'd say. The only thing I can distill from your response thus far, is that Nvidia's spin on the FE has worked very well in your case, just like I was pointing out. The fact remains that the FE blower is the bottom of the stack, and putting a premium on the bottom means everything else gets priced higher, that's plain and simple economics.

Well for starters, here's the 1060 I ordered the first week of October this past year--2 months after AIB versions of the card started popping up in August. It was the price the average entry level 1060 was going for for several weeks at that point--$259.99, so $10 over the MSRP, which you can attribute to paying a slight premium for a significantly better cooling solution. Lets check out the Price History on the ASUS 1060 6GB Turbo--the closest solution to a reference design. Well look at that, it's regularly within 5% of the MSRP until this spring when all GPU prices went bananas. Here's the 1070 Turbo, a bit more variance but still within 5% of the MSRP. I looked at several AIB solutions and the trend was basically launch well below the FE price point ($449), and after a month or so drop down to around their MSRP. I don't know what happened at the end of May but GPU prices across the board skyrocketed--which is ironic because there are several that just before the jump were selling for insanely low prices, quite a few 1070's going for as little as $330.

This is still the opposite of AMD, who launched at their MSRP and raised the price once the initial batch was gone. There's also the fact that the 1080 and 1070 launched against no real competition, so they offered substantially better Price/Performance even at elevated price points. AMD doesn't have that same luxury. The Vega 56 is only a good value at $399. If it goes to $499 it's not worth it, and the Vega 64 is decent at the $499 price point, but once it passes the 1080 in cost it is absolutely not worth it. How a product launching at a premium--because it's very new and offers great value and performance--and subsequently dropping lower towards the MSRP, is the same at launching at the MSRP and the price going up afterwards and a "new" MSRP being revealed is exactly the same is beyond me.

xenocideWell for starters, here's the 1060 I ordered the first week of October this past year--2 months after AIB versions of the card started popping up in August. It was the price the average entry level 1060 was going for for several weeks at that point--$259.99, so $10 over the MSRP, which you can attribute to paying a slight premium for a significantly better cooling solution. Lets check out the Price History on the ASUS 1060 6GB Turbo--the closest solution to a reference design. Well look at that, it's regularly within 5% of the MSRP until this spring when all GPU prices went bananas. Here's the 1070 Turbo, a bit more variance but still within 5% of the MSRP. I looked at several AIB solutions and the trend was basically launch well below the FE price point ($449), and after a month or so drop down to around their MSRP. I don't know what happened at the end of May but GPU prices across the board skyrocketed--which is ironic because there are several that just before the jump were selling for insanely low prices, quite a few 1070's going for as little as $330.

This is still the opposite of AMD, who launched at their MSRP and raised the price once the initial batch was gone. There's also the fact that the 1080 and 1070 launched against no real competition, so they offered substantially better Price/Performance even at elevated price points. AMD doesn't have that same luxury. The Vega 56 is only a good value at $399. If it goes to $499 it's not worth it, and the Vega 64 is decent at the $499 price point, but once it passes the 1080 in cost it is absolutely not worth it. How a product launching at a premium--because it's very new and offers great value and performance--and subsequently dropping lower towards the MSRP, is the same at launching at the MSRP and the price going up afterwards and a "new" MSRP being revealed is exactly the same is beyond me.

Your argument is valid, and your facts coincide with my memory of the 10 series launch. I have also tried facts, logic, citing articles, etc. It doesn't do any good, the current AMD mania goes beyond common sense. Apparently it's this recent generation's way of rebelling against their parents or "the man", since most of them never move out or even get a driver's license. So the geekier ones have started bombarding all PC hardware review sites with their misguided posts about how AMD can do no wrong, and Nvidia is the spawn of Satan, like the Evil Empire of Intel. It's ironic that most of them have Intel/Nvidia gaming PCs, possibly handed down from their parents, who had a lot more sense.

xenocideWell look at that, it's regularly within 5% of the MSRP until this spring when all GPU prices went bananas. Here's the 1070 Turbo, a bit more variance but still within 5% of the MSRP. I looked at several AIB solutions and the trend was basically launch well below the FE price point ($449), and after a month or so drop down to around their MSRP

That does look a whole lot different from what happened over here in the Netherlands. Thanks for the insight, because this is definitely not the same, I'll happily agree to that!

There still is a slight markup on the MSRPs though right from the start, let's not forget that either. The x60 for example used to be a 200-210 EUR price point card but now that only gets you the 3GB (if lucky), that bottom end has gone up by a good margin of 20-30% in most cases. Similar for the x70 and x80. And it's also still rare for cards to really hit the set MSRPs; the Asus TURBO being a good example, it sporadically dropped to the intended 379 dollar price point, but averages out at 390 or so, even though this is also a bottom-end blower type like the FE - there is still some price inflation going on here. And since the price cut to 349 (which was the regular MSRP for x70), that MSRP is reflected nowhere since March even though it had other reasons. What makes the slight increase bearable though is that Pascal also presented a greater than 30% performance jump for most cards.

@Hood is this really necessary, every time? Grow the F up man

Meanwhile in the Netherlands... so you can see where I'm coming from...



Cheapest 1070...



Cheapest 1080

Vayra86That does look a whole lot different from what happened over here in the Netherlands. Thanks for the insight, because this is definitely not the same, I'll happily agree to that!

It's hard to compare prices across markets due to things like VAT and Trade Agreements. I know a lot of EU countries kind of get boned on the cost of electronics--especially AMD cards for some reason. I am basing everything off the US prices because we are kind of the largest consumer market, and a majority of these products are launched in the US asap. The one point I will concede after looking up the price histories and TPU reviews, is that a lot of the AIB solutions launched closer to the FE prices than the MSRP. There were 1080's launching at $720 which was silly, but at the time it was undoubtedly the most desired card on the market, so the market kind of drove that way more than Nvidia had any ability to control. I think the FE is a poor investment, but Nvidia launches them a month earlier than the AIB cards come out, and gets to recoup some R&D costs by charging early adopters who want to be on the bleeding edge. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

Vayra86There still is a slight markup on the MSRPs though right from the start, let's not forget that either. The x60 for example used to be a 200-210 EUR price point card but now that only gets you the 3GB (if lucky), that bottom end has gone up by a good margin of 20-30% in most cases. Similar for the x70 and x80. And it's also still rare for cards to really hit the set MSRPs; the Asus TURBO being a good example, it sporadically dropped to the intended 379 dollar price point, but averages out at 390 or so, even though this is also a bottom-end blower type like the FE - there is still some price inflation going on here. And since the price cut to 349 (which was the regular MSRP for x70), that MSRP is reflected nowhere since March even though it had other reasons. What makes the slight increase bearable though is that Pascal also presented a greater than 30% performance jump for most cards.

There will almost always be a premium on AIB cards over the MSRP, due to the increased cost of advanced cooling solutions and the perceived value of factory OCs. Over time the prices have shifted due to things like AMD's Vega delays and now their inability to meet demand, as well as things like the resurgence of cryptocurrency mining. This generation as a whole has been a bit of a crap shoot, but Pascal didn't launch nearly as sloppy as Vega has. There were definite shortages, but according to Nvidia's shareholder meetings it was mostly due to absolutely insane demand--they didn't have the supplier issues that AMD is experiencing. I know a lot of people--including myself--upgraded from 6xx/7xx gen cards to the 1xxx series back when prices dropped last year because at the time it was a pretty ridiculous value.

VEGA 56 is good value for both gaming or 3D modeling/CGI for it's suggested retail price while VEGA 64 is good at the latter, but not so valuable in relation to price at the former.

HoodYour argument is valid, and your facts coincide with my memory of the 10 series launch. I have also tried facts, logic, citing articles, etc. It doesn't do any good, the current AMD mania goes beyond common sense. Apparently it's this recent generation's way of rebelling against their parents or "the man", since most of them never move out or even get a driver's license. So the geekier ones have started bombarding all PC hardware review sites with their misguided posts about how AMD can do no wrong, and Nvidia is the spawn of Satan, like the Evil Empire of Intel. It's ironic that most of them have Intel/Nvidia gaming PCs, possibly handed down from their parents, who had a lot more sense.

Not really the logic that VEGA in either case though more so with VEGA 56 is somehow bad or lesser value is invalid they are great DX12 cards which is the both the present and future of game development no it doesn't replace DX11 entirely, but it will become more standard and be utilized in better ways as time passes DX10 and DX9 held their own for a long while as well though no one judged current cards based around those outdated API's. More importantly outside of gaming these cards soundly hold their own in terms of value in a major way providing a huge bang for buck for Blender artists and money talks especially when they can be put to good use to make money that's reality and nothing speaks louder for value than something that can make you return on investment that's w/o getting into any of the mining drama mind you. It's not all about gaming these cards have a lot of value even outside of game performance and that's a big part of why they will be in short supply for awhile. I'm not sure why people are so damn upset about it for gaming where they perceive them as inferior anyways in large part like get over it and go buy that other product you deem superior anyway though the Vega 56 at it's suggested retail price is far better value than what Nvidia is offering even for gaming especially factoring in DX12 and how as things move forward that holds more and more weight in terms of value for money. If people don't think AMD is trying to deal with these VEGA supply issues they are very naive of course they want to sell as many as possible the fact is they can't keep up with the demand right now. Funny I didn't see people react nearly as over the top and harshly towards Nintendo with the Wii s shortages for example or the NES/SNES classic ones I mean sure people bickered, but they weren't having the same degree of completely irrational temper tantrums over it nearly as badly as people JayzTwoCents for example not put him exclusively on blast or anything.

InVasManiVEGA 56 is good value for both gaming or 3D modeling/CGI for it's suggested retail price while VEGA 64 is good at the latter, but not so valuable in relation to price at the former.
Not really the logic that VEGA in either case though more so with VEGA 56 is somehow bad or lesser value is invalid they are great DX12 cards which is the both the present and future of game development no it doesn't replace DX11 entirely, but it will become more standard and be utilized in better ways as time passes DX10 and DX9 held their own for a long while as well though no one judged current cards based around those outdated API's. More importantly outside of gaming these cards soundly hold their own in terms of value in a major way providing a huge bang for buck for Blender artists and money talks especially when they can be put to good use to make money that's reality and nothing speaks louder for value than something that can make you return on investment that's w/o getting into any of the mining drama mind you. It's not all about gaming these cards have a lot of value even outside of game performance and that's a big part of why they will be in short supply for awhile. I'm not sure why people are so damn upset about it for gaming where they perceive them as inferior anyways in large part like get over it and go buy that other product you deem superior anyway though the Vega 56 at it's suggested retail price is far better value than what Nvidia is offering even for gaming especially factoring in DX12 and how as things move forward that holds more and more weight in terms of value for money. If people don't think AMD is trying to deal with these VEGA supply issues they are very naive of course they want to sell as many as possible the fact is they can't keep up with the demand right now. Funny I didn't see people react nearly as over the top and harshly towards Nintendo with the Wii s shortages for example or the NES/SNES classic ones I mean sure people bickered, but they weren't having the same degree of completely irrational temper tantrums over it nearly as badly as people JayzTwoCents for example not put him exclusively on blast or anything.

This discussion was not about the card's performance or value, but about the way AMD treated their loyal customers when they lied about the real MSRP, which I thought was shitty of them. Then the AMD-can-do-no-wrong crowd chimed in. I don't care either way, I don't want a new card right now, and certainly wouldn't buy a Vega card, even at the fake launch MSRP - too hot and noisy. I just get tired of hearing it, especially after AMD just bent them over again.

NortonThe shortage may have something to do with Project 47 also. Wasn't that set up to use 80 Vega cards per unit?

Or maybe because of this recent news - www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/expensive-failure-launch-Llanos-fine - about a class action suit won by AMD shareholders - AMD has no money, certainly not enough to do a proper video card launch.

HoodOr maybe because of this recent news - www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/expensive-failure-launch-Llanos-fine - about a class action suit won by AMD shareholders - AMD has no money, certainly not enough to do a proper video card launch.

Amazing what you find when you actually read.

The RegisterNow AMD is pitching a settlement to end the case before it gets to trial. Under the proposed deal, AMD's insurers will fund the $29.5m payment and the chipmaker will be able to continue to deny it did anything wrong.

Just higher premium on insurance if the deal is accepted.

AMD should have just waited another month before launching and let people cry about it not being out yet rather than allowing some people to get one now if they are fortunate enough...because if cake is available we all want it now god forbid someone doesn't get a slice and has to wait til later to enjoy cake. This VEGA situation isn't that bad Nvidia still has supply issues with Pascal relative to it's suggested retail pricing and AMD does as well with it's older generation cards the RX580 are also in short supply due to demand. Now on top of that look at the DRAM and SSD industry they are both in arguably worse situations price gouging want a example I bought 2 kits of 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4 3200 for $150's in February of 2016 and those same kits now cost $255's they only increase $100's per kit no big deal right?????? SSD's prices have climbed as well...oh and motherboard and CPU prices have steadily been increasing over the last 5-10 years for anything that's a "practical" relative upgrade...it's called inflation supply and demand. AMD hasn't even had time to sort out it's VEGA supply issues at this point it hasn't even been 2 months yet since VEGA64/56 launched hell the latter launched yesterday I mean honestly...QQ

There were some reports about TSMC adopting a single process for all things 10 and now skip 10nm directly to 7 nm, as opposed to having low power for arm and different for gpus. Could it be that next year amd is bringing this to the market. Well in that case can't justify buying anything now since 1080ti will be shrinked the size and power of 1060 or worse nvidia chooses 12 nm. I should have bought 1070 months ago. This is just too much.