FouquinPlease cease the unnecessary ad-hominem attacks. There is no need to introduce personal attacks and toxicity in a debate about computer hardware.

Thanks for the tip. And when you address everyone equally for such "attacks", I'll be all too happy to take it more seriously.

FouquinPlease provide these reliable sources.

Ok. Here's just a few examples;
www.anandtech.com/show/537/27
www.anandtech.com/show/742/12
www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_fx_5800_ultra_the_review,24.html
www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/albatron-geforce-6800-gt-256-mb-review,1.html

These are only examples of the kind of research done when I go looking for info. People can say I talk out my backside all they want, doesn't make them correct. And not all of your numbers jive well with the info out there. Nor does it jive with what I remember from back then. Thing is, I'm not going to hold anyone's hands. If I tell you I know something and that you might be wrong, you can bet your life on the fact that I've gone looking to verify info or have personal experience(that also gets re-verified).

bugThere is also a difference between complaining about pricing and making that the only point in every thread that has Nvidia in its title ;)

This. Yes.

lexluthermiesterSee, I'm one of those who like RTX. I didn't at first because there wasn't enough info to make an informed conclusion. Once that info was out there and the potential of RTX's RTRT was explored, even just a little, I saw the value of it. That was the motivation needed to get one and have fun with it.

Hey, more power to you. Since they ruined the Battlefield series, it doesn't hold a lot of value to me. When I look at RTRT, I see all the other empty promises we've been given such as mGPU. If devs haven't gotten around to a feature that would be beneficial to far more people than RTRT then I don't see how RTRT is going to take off anytime soon. 10% of users on steam have above a 1070. Let's say that the 20 series matches that (which, to me, is doubtful at this point), what incentive do developers have to spend a metric boat load of resources (assumption on my part) to implement a feature that one out of ten users will be able to use? That doesn't even account for consoles which won't be RTRT capable for this generation (also an assumption by me).

Look at Bethesda. They can't even be bothered to update their engine from something this decade. I don't think CoD's engine has had an overhaul either (also an assumption). I honestly don't care what happens with RTRT as from the videos I have seen it doesn't even look that better. I haven't seen it in person so I will hold final judgement until then. Instead of RTRT, I wish developers would spend those resources on actually finishing their games before launch.

lexluthermiester

SlizzoExcept MSRP, for the 2080Ti At least, is "starting at $999". So far, only ONE SINGLE card has hit that price, on offer from EVGA: The 2080 Ti Black Edition.

That's for the FE direct from NVidia. Most did/do not pay anywhere near that price for an AIB model. For example mine was under $800. Yes, yes.

lexluthermiester2080. The 2080FE is MSRP'd at $999. The 2080tiFE is at $1199.

Ah, I was confused. You had quoted someone referring to a 2080ti starting at $999 and said you had gotten it for $800. I was going to call that a deal I would consider paying.

moproblems99Ah, I was confused. You had quoted someone referring to a 2080ti starting at $999 and said you had gotten it for $800.

No worries, sometimes these conversations go all over the place and can be hard to follow..

moproblems99I was going to call that a deal I would consider paying.

That'd be a deal I'd go for too!

lexluthermiesterOk. Here's just a few examples;
www.anandtech.com/show/537/27
www.anandtech.com/show/742/12
www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/geforce_fx_5800_ultra_the_review,24.html
www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/albatron-geforce-6800-gt-256-mb-review,1.html

These are only examples of the kind of research done when I go looking for info. People can say I talk out my backside all they want, doesn't make them correct. And your numbers don't jive well with the info out there. Nor does it jive with what I remember from back then.

Those are good sources, and are ones that I referenced myself to determine prices (as shown by the chart reflecting the very same values). I also referred to nVidia's product pages (when prices are listed) as well as archived retailer listings such as from Newegg and/or TigerDirect. A lot of the prices were also pulled directly from our very own GPU Database which uses information from all the aforementioned sources to provide the launch-day MSRP of a card if possible. If a specific number does not jive with you, offer up evidence to substantiate a correction. Otherwise, the values will not be changed and the debate will continue along using the alleged incorrect values.

Regardless, only a single instance of a price decrease across two generations is sufficient to disprove your presented fact of, "Every generation of new GPUs get a price increase."

lexluthermiesterThing is, I'm not going to hold anyone's hands. If I tell you I know something and that you might be wrong, you can bet your life on the fact that I've gone looking to verify info or have personal experience(that also gets re-verified).

That's all well and good, but you also made a completely false statement presented as fact that was incredibly easy to disprove by the very same research. I can only trust your knowledge by what you say, and when you say something which is false that trust is shaken and becomes uncertain. As it stands, doing independent research and verification has led to exposing that actual facts, something that would never happen if I had blind faith in your every word.

With all that out of the way it's clear the pricing on the 20 series GPUs is a rare case of substantial increase over the historical average. Since it has been so long since the last comparable increase, and the increase is subjectively not justifiable there has been an uproar surrounding it. That now taints the entire product line and as such continue to expect commotion when information on the 20 series continues to appear, including this news on the RTX 2060 FE.

lexluthermiesterNo worries, sometimes these conversations go all over the place and can be hard to follow..

That'd be a deal I'd go for too!

Also, just wanted to say I wasn't trying to be a jerk when I said 'more power to you'. Gaming is supposed to fun. If you aren't enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.

Fouquin"Every generation of new GPUs get a price increase."

Ok, I'll partly retract and re-qualify. Most generational transitions experience an increase. Still, this one isn't the largest jump in relative price.

FouquinThat's all well and good, but you also made a completely false statement presented as fact that was incredibly easy to disprove by the very same research.

The problem with your conclusion is the following; when you compare an individual series and/or model group, there has always been an increase on one level or another. So it's not that the info I stated was false, it's more that it requires a bigger picture point of view. We could nitpick each other all day long. But hey, what would be the point beyond a bit of amusement..

moproblems99Also, just wanted to say I wasn't trying to be a jerk when I said 'more power to you'.

I gotcha, no worries.

moproblems99Gaming is supposed to fun. If you aren't enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.

Exactly, and that's the most important thing!

lexluthermiesterThat's for the FE direct from NVidia. Most did/do not pay anywhere near that price for an AIB model. For example mine was under $800. Yes, yes.

You realize he said Ti right, direct from Nvidia those are $1,199, with AIB srp being the aforementioned $999, and quick look available ti are matching FE prices with a $100 markup on most. Where did you get this $800 2080ti?

TotallyYou realize he said Ti right, direct from Nvidia those are $1,199, with AIB srp being the aforementioned $999, and quick look available ti are matching FE prices with a $100 markup on most. Where did you get this $800 2080ti?

He got 2080, not 2080Ti

Do you even read?

bugThere is also a difference between complaining about pricing and making that the only point in every thread that has Nvidia in its title ;)

Not my fault RTX looks like an entire i9 lineup.

xkm1948He got 2080, not 2080Ti

Do you even read?

He was qouting some one referring to a 2080ti and referencing his that he didn't specific was the non-ti. Those following clarifying posts weren't present and were probably made while I wasn't double checking in case pricing had changed and hadn't taken note. So don't jump down my throat just because someone is being 'hard to follow'.

All the cards were a lot easier to get before they came out with the Ring Doorbell, Just sayin.:peace:

how about this... since the "teaser" data of how the RTX2060 performing as close or slightly better than the GTX1070Ti isn't reliable enough, why not let other reviewers do their work on it once the NDA is lifted, considering some might already get their hands on the card, particularly the Founders Edition of the 2060. Just stop all the complaints, laments & bantering... while leaving those folks who will take their time in reviewing said GPUs? Can we all do that so we can see how the card actually performs & not throwing opinions here & there??

And where is the fun in that?

GoldenXAnd where is the fun in that?

Speculation is a ton of fun sure, but most of what has been going on in this thread has been NVidia bashing about price and supposed performance. If it were more about interesting speculation than it would be more fun.

Having constructive opinions are fine. Destructive ones while bashing others? Not cool & best to keep it to yourself.

lexluthermiesterHere's a set of facts;
1. Every generation of new GPU's get a price increase.
2. Every generation of GPU's offers a performance increase.
3. People always complain about said price increase while trying to minimize or ignoring the increase in performance.

I didn't read all 7 pages but I have to respond to that because you are clearly misunderstanding the situation and manipulating information.

Facts :
1 - Indeed that's a fact but there must be a cause
2 - I couldn't agree more
3 - People complain indeed, but not because the increase of price, that's where you're forgetting point n°4 which explains this point, and doesn't justify point 1 and justify complaints

So :
4 - The ratio for manufacturers of performance/cost is ALWAYS increasing because performance increase a lot, but costs don't grow that fast, and sometimes they go down when doing shrinking or renaming.


Here is an example of your logic :
1 - a Voodoo card score 1
2 - a 2080 TI card score 1000
3 - In your logic, the starting price should increase accordingly to the increase of performance

So, saying, for example that a Voodoo costs 300$ at the time (like 20 ears ago), a 2080TI should cost 300 000$ at launch. See where you're wrong dude ?
A Voodoo should maybe cost a single dollar to produce today. And so you have to take that in input for point n°1 which explain point n°3. (old ratio : 1/300 | new ratio : 1, and higher is better)

That's the same thing for many things like HDD, SSD (remember when a SSD cost 1$/GB ? with Vertex 2 for example). Remember the cost of a 8086 ? now it's a single dollar, even less and a high-end CPU which is 200000x more powerful is "only" 400$. See ? Get out of the matrix lex, you're blinded.

People are complaining because Nvidia is putting crazy prices on something easy to produce for them. End of story.
And stop with "Vote with your wallet" or "learn how to save money". I could build myself a right now with the last Threadripper or i9 + 2TB SSD + 2080Ti and don't even sense it on my accounts. It's a question of taking people for idiots and Nvidia is doing it for many years now.

FouquinEvery generation gets a price increase? Well hang up just a second there, that's not a 'fact' I've ever heard or seen presented.

You have to calculate the inflated price for a fair comparison.
8800 Ultra becomes ~$1007
8800 GTX (which launched at $649) becomes ~$811
Prices for Turing doesn't look so bad then…

FouquinEvery generation gets a price increase? Well hang up just a second there, that's not a 'fact' I've ever heard or seen presented.



The average MSRP of a flagship nVidia GPU was set at a hair over $525 for nearly a decade, with the majority of new releases being either cheaper or the same price. The GTX 780 was the first card to buck the trend in half a decade, and the GTX 980 looked like a return to that comfortable average before the 10 series and now 20 series have cranked up the heat. Even with the migration of flagship status to 'Ti' series cards the price increase is felt at the launch of the 20 series, with the 2080 Ti's minimum cost set where the first three generations of Titans were.

I have no argument against the fact that performance increased with each generation, except for with the 9800 GTX but that was a very strange special case as the 8800 Ultra was announced after the 9800 series launched, so there's this distinct overlap of product lines that lead to the 9800 GTX taking a bit of a back seat while still being sold as the flagship product of a new generation.

So the actual fact is the 20 series breaks the trend by being the first product series in over a decade to feature an increased MSRP over a previous generation that also had an increased MSRP. It also features the highest increase in average price, as well as the highest MSRP values to date since the 8800 Ultra 11 years ago. Those facts have helped form the opinion of large group of consumers that the entire product series is overpriced.

While generally I agree with you that every generations does not have price increases. But could you add the die sizes on that chart? As pricing is not always that black and white, it's depend on different variables. By die sizes: gtx 280 was a really big chip(die shrinked really fast to smaller GTX285 with $359 msrp), Fermis were big chips but had a fierce competition, gtx780 was a big kepler, gtx980 was on the same node as gtx680 thus fair, gtx1080 was rip off without a competition, RTX 2080 is again a big chip and no competition.

lexluthermiesterWrong, and every benchmark showing performance numbers bare that out as fact. The 2080 cleanly beats out the 1080 and beats out 1080ti if it doesn't match it. Also RTX offers advancements Pascal can not. The 2080/2080ti and RTX Titan are the best on the market. NVidia knows this and demands a premium price for it. If you don't want to pay that price, ok, don't buy one. Settle for less.

Key word there..

lexluthermiesterEveryone is complaining about price. Is it really that expensive? And if so, is really that difficult to save money for an extra month or two?

Haha. 2 pathetic tries to defend this gen.

My 2 cents on pricing:

The 8800 GTX was 600$ or today 725$
8800 Ultra was 800$ or today 999$
The 8800 GT was only 300$ or today 360$
All with inflation.

Here's the thing. The 8800 GT gave you about 75%-80% of the performance the 8800 Ultra did for almost a third of its price. It was fairly close in performance, yet much cheaper.
That's how things were sold to us. The 8800 Ultra was the cream of the crop for fine diners, while offering slightly higher performance.

Today, you have:
RTX 2080 Ti for 999$
RTX 2080 for 799$
RTX 2070 for 499$

The performance difference between the RTX 2070 and RTX 2080 Ti is quite substantial. You don't get 75% of flagship performance for half of its price. You get just a little over half.

The flagship to mainstream ratio is very different today than it was 10-11 years ago, even if "cards were still sold at over 750$". There was compensation for the mid range. Today midrange is absolutely cruel.
The only things 300$ will get you is RX 590, or GTX 1060 GDDR5X, with both having 2+ year technologies in them

eidairaman1PSI vote with my wallet because I am on my 290 VaporX. I also dont advocate a company with the color of greed.

how many time are you going to mention that you bought an AMD card 5 years ago so you're supporting the right company.

fact is they're using 12nm to launch a $350 card that,if the leak is to be true,outperforms AMD's $400 V56 and nearly matches $500 V64.Has RT and DLSS support too,while all Vega has is gimmicky HBCC that they hyped but it turned out to have zero impact. Meanwhile all AMD did this year is launch a 12nm flop at $280 that is barely faster than rx580 oc vs oc.

nvidia has had better value cards at the ~$350-400 price point for quite some time,starting with the gtx 970,then 1070,1070Ti and now rtx 2060 is gonna be no exception.They didn't make the jump to 7nm yet,but still are bringing the performance of 1080/V64 down to $350 level at 12nm.

efikkanYou have to calculate the inflated price for a fair comparison.
8800 Ultra becomes ~$1007
8800 GTX (which launched at $649) becomes ~$811
Prices for Turing doesn't look so bad then…

You don't need to adjust for inflation for MSRP between generations. Reason being that the inflation of the US Dollar between a set of product launches is not enough to significantly impact the MSRP of the product. For example; the value of the US Dollar between the GTX 680 and GTX 780 would not have changed substantially enough to justify the $150 price increase as compensation. This was not a value adjusted comparison, it was a generational comparison.

dj-electricMy 2 cents on pricing:

The 8800 GTX was 600$ or today 725$
8800 Ultra was 800$ or today 999$
The 8800 GT was only 300$ or today 360$
All with inflation.

Here's the thing. The 8800 GT gave you about 75%-80% of the performance the 8800 Ultra did for almost a third of its price. It was fairly close in performance, yet much cheaper.
That's how things were sold to us. The 8800 Ultra was the cream of the crop for fine diners, while offering slightly higher performance.

Today, you have:
RTX 2080 Ti for 999$
RTX 2080 for 799$
RTX 2070 for 499$

The performance difference between the RTX 2070 and RTX 2080 Ti is quite substantial. You don't get 75% of flagship performance for half of its price. You get just a little over half.

The flagship to mainstream ratio is very different today than it was 10-11 years ago, even if "cards were still sold at over 750$". There was compensation for the mid range. Today midrange is absolutely cruel.
The only things 300$ will get you is RX 590, or GTX 1060 GDDR5X, with both having 2+ year technologies in them

Uhm 8800 GT msrp was $199, Same chip 8800 GTS was $349. And not to mention 8800 GTX was manufactured on 90nm node and 8800 GT half year later on smaller 65nm node.

Renaldeople are complaining because Nvidia is putting crazy prices on something easy to produce for them. End of story.
And stop with "Vote with your wallet" or "learn how to save money". I could build myself a right now with the last Threadripper or i9 + 2TB SSD + 2080Ti and don't even sense it on my accounts. It's a question of taking people for idiots and Nvidia is doing it for many years now.

Honestly, there wasn't much they could do as a publicly traded company. The 10 series is already better than anything AMD has and everyone had a serious surplus. Then they released cards that are faster then their last gen. Why lower the prices on something that is already better than the competition? Unfortunately for us, that is just not good business. People need to figure out what they value and stick to it until Navi comes out. Then they better hope that Navi is mostly competitive. I surmise it will be similar to Vega -> Pascal.

cucker tarlsonnvidia has had better value cards at the ~$350-400 price point for quite some time,starting with the gtx 970,then 1070,1070Ti and now rtx 2060 is gonna be no exception.They didn't make the jump to 7nm yet,but still are bringing the performance of 1080/V64 down to $350 level at 12nm.

That really depends on the situation. Those of us enjoying Freesync have a much better value metric when combining the cost of a monitor in with a gpu. Do we have the bestest and fastest? No. Do we have a solution that works? Yes.

EDIT: For what is worth, I have $1000 into my monitor and GPU. Going by these leaks, a 2060 and a G-Sync monitor is going to cost a little bit more than that. How bad is the value really?

FouquinYou don't need to adjust for inflation for MSRP between generations. Reason being that the inflation of the US Dollar between a set of product launches is not enough to significantly impact the MSRP of the product. For example; the value of the US Dollar between the GTX 680 and GTX 780 would not have changed substantially enough to justify the $150 price increase as compensation. This was not a value adjusted comparison, it was a generational comparison.

Wrong, you missed the point, the prices must be calculated with inflation to give a fair comparison.

That does not mean that a price increase is pure inflation, there are many factors here, including varying production costs, competition, etc. But these can only be compared after we have the price corrected for inflation, otherwise any comparison is pointless.