I think it would be interesting to see what Epic store looks like vs Steam Hardware survey. Since Steam has been with us for so long (basically as long as Intel's domination) so it makes sense that Intel dominates the CPU section. The fact remains though that AMD are gaining market share. At the end of the day personal computers (especially for gaming) are discretionary purchases. The economy of the West is not as good as before the last depression so gone is the thought process that everyone spends whatever they want. Want evidence of what I am talking about look at Amazon.com top selling GPUs. The RX 580 is number 1 and the 570 is number 5. The 2060 does occupy spots 3 and 4 but the 710 beats all of Nvidia's offerings by being number 2. Amazon.com also confirms the post from GinoLatino the the 2600 and 2700x are the top 2 selling processors.

jabbadapHe/She has a point though, with Ryzen you really wan't to buy RAMs with Samsung B-dies. But with Intel's that does not really matter: any RAM kit will usually work within marketed speeds.

Gskill and Team Force all work as intended with Ryzen. All you have to do is follow the Motherboards QVL list and you will have no issues with Ryzen. With any board Intel or AMD you should follow the QVL list.

kapone32With any board Intel or AMD you should follow the QVL list.

the point here is AMD is still more finicky with ram. Intel you can plug a potato in and it will work. With AMD, no way would I stray from qvl.

EarthDogthe point here is AMD is still more finicky with ram. Intel you can plug a potato in and it will work. With AMD, no way would I stray from qvl.

Yes AMD did not get DDR4 until AM4 you could make the same Intel argument for AM3 but we are not factoring that Intel has had DDR4 for at least 2 generations before AMD.

kapone32Yes AMD did not get DDR4 until AM4 you could make the same Intel argument for AM3 but we are not factoring that Intel has had DDR4 for at least 2 generations before AMD.

No, you really cant make that argument. Intel didnt have anywhere near the compatibility issues on gen1 ddr4 that plagued early ryzen. It's a lot better, no doubt, but you really need to stick to the qvl...early Intel ddr4 you can still install a potato and it would work. :)

Your advice is true, but you have A LOT better chance of Intel to work off qvl than ryzen anything.

That said these lists arent updated half the time and memory mfg switch skus etc... so they arent The Gospel, but it is the best we have. :)

timta2Because AMD CPU owners constantly worry about memory speeds, timings, and compatiblity, and Intel CPU owners don't.

Well sort of, but most people in this thread have misunderstood it.
There is certainly a difference when it comes to support for overclocked memory, and the three main factors are memory controller, motherboard support and the specs of the memory module itself.
At the moment most Intel CPUs are rated for 2666 MHz, and many AMD CPUs 2933 MHz. Many gamers today buy memory kits rated for ~3200-3600 MHz, and Intel CPUs do certainly do better with overclocked memory, but very few are able to run them at such speeds over time. Skylake-family CPUs can't consistently hit even 3200 MHz, and even if you are able to POST on a good speed, you'll have to gradually clock down over time as the memory controller degrades. Memory overclocking is just as waste of time since it only gives marginal gains for most use cases, it causes many stability problems and so on. And not to mention that most buyers of fancy memory actually never realize they have to enable and calibrate overclocked memory to get any "gains". It's a waste of money unless your purpose is competitive benchmarking.

When you go and buy a memory kit, you should not match the rated max speed with your CPU, you should look at the SPD rating, which is the JEDEC speed it's guaranteed to work at. Most >=2666 MHz kits today have a SPD rating of 2133 MHz, which is the speed you will be falling back to. If your CPU is rated for 2666 MHz, then go buy a memory kit with SPD rating of 2666 MHz and it will work just fine, AMD or Intel, and you will actually get what you pay for.

The memory isnt overclocked when above the JEDEC platform specs, it's the IMC in the CPUs that are. RAM is rated to run at the speeds on the box. ;)

There also isnt an issue on modern/current gen Intel runni g those speeds. I've had x299 and 3600 sticks since month 1... all good here...no issues on the web re mass degradation.

EarthDogThe memory isnt overclocked when above the JEDEC platform specs, it's the IMC in the CPUs that are. RAM is rated to run at the speeds on the box. ;)

No, it is overclocked when it surpasses the rated speed and/or voltage of the memory controller of the CPU.

efikkanNo, it is overclocked when it surpasses the rated speed and/or voltage of the memory controller of the CPU.

That's what I just said....


...the IMC is rated for the platform's base specification, be it 2400/2666/2933. Once over that, the IMC is being overclocked. The memory sticks themselves, however, are only considered overclock if it exceeds the rating on the box.... it really doesn't matter that most memory IC's are cut from 2133/2400. Their 'rated' speeds are on the box. :)

R0H1TBecause it doesn't show wider real world trends? If you're talking just about steam users then the point is valid however Steam isn't anywhere near representative of the much wider, bigger computing world & that includes casual gamers among others.

That's not exactly true. At least not in the world of statistics. Let's say we were looking at Batting Helmets. Let's say the national league tracks head injuries and publishes a database of what Brand players are buying and results might be :

Brand A = 75%
Brand B = 12%
Brand C = 11%

To say that that data in no way represents the totality of professional baseball in the USA, you'd have to show that the factors that affect choice are somehow different between the two leagues. As there is no evidence to support that, the data is statistically valid with respect to GPUs.

Now for CPUs, we can make the argument that there are different choice factors, as business and many home users don't have discrete cards. However no one is suggesting that the Steam CPU data refelects anything but the gaming world so the postulation while valid is out of context. When limited to the gaming world ... and here we mean the folks playing games sold on Steam .... not Solitaire, Minesweeper and things like Yeti Games, there again is no evidence or reasonable argument to suggest that the factors that affect choice are different whether they be buying their games from Steam, Epic, GOG, Walmart or Best Buy. Might as well argue that sales data from 2,000 Macy's stores is not representative of sales of a particular product they both carry because it doesn't include Gimbels sales. Or that we can't depend upon relative sales of 1%, 2% and 4% milk cause it only included 50% of supermarket chains... what would be the argument that King Kullen shoppers prefer different milk than those who bshop at "Stop 'n Shop" ? Polls come away with single digit accuracy with just 2,500 samples.

Now if we go "out of context", and include business and mom / grandpappy's PCs, there are factors that affect choice are different for a this segment of purchasers. If ya want these, use a different data source. But still, these results will be skewed somewhat. For example, data from "who ran our benchmark" will be skewed as only someone who cares how fast the PC is will have bothered to run the benchmark. Grandma who uses her PC only to see pics of the grandkids, certainly didn't. Grandma also isn't here reading this forum.

This forum is an enthusiast PC users forum whose audience is PC Tweakers, Gamers and Power users. Steam is an information resource for gamers. So when reading this forum and a topic about steam users ... keep in mind that context. It's understood that we are not talking about what CPU / GPU grandma is choosing. Grandma didn't even choose. She walked into Walmart witha proce in mind and bought the one that the pimply HS Junior showed her. The guy who bought 12 PCs for the new Real Estate office doesn't even know what CPU he has and doesn't have a GPU. So it's not that this information isn't available ... it's just of little value to those who would bother looking at the Steam Survey or this audience. It's not as if I'm building a high end gaming rig, what CPU my local bakery, lawyer's secretary or grandmother uses. If you are running a racing tem, do you really care about what brand of oil is most popular at Walmert ? (Answer to rhetorical question ... the one that's on sale) ... or are going to look at what brand most racing teams (successful ones) are running with.

Personally I really don't care what brand is selling the most .... how i find the data useful for example is when I see the 2060 with it's 1st appearance in the rankings has more sales than vega 56 & 64 combined after 17 months, I can only conclude a) there must be helluva reason or b) the entire gaiming community is stoopid. If coming in cold out of touch with what's what at this point, I'm not saying that makes my decision, but it wil narrow down what I look at.

EarthDogThat's what I just said....

...the IMC is rated for the platform's base specification, be it 2400/2666/2933. Once over that, the IMC is being overclocked. The memory sticks themselves, however, are only considered overclock if it exceeds the rating on the box.... it really doesn't matter that most memory IC's are cut from 2133/2400. Their 'rated' speeds are on the box. :)

The box, which will typically advertise XMP speed, is irrelevant. When you look at the SPD data for RAM, each column that says JEDEC at the top is, by definition, not overclocked. If it says XMP (or AMD equivalent) it is 'by definition" overclocked even though it has the XMP speed "on the box"
www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/extreme-memory-profile-xmp.html

For a stick, anything over the highest JEDEC rating is an OC. For the MoBo... just look at the specs, regardles of what it says on the Box, the latest BIOs or spec sheet will tell you what is and what is not OC

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144212

Everything that says OC is an overclock

Memory Standard: DDR4 4400(OC)/ 4300(OC)/ 4266(OC)/ 4200(OC)/ 4133(OC)/ 4000(OC)/ 3866(OC)/ 3733(OC)/ 3600(OC)/ 3466(OC)/ 3400(OC)/ 3333(OC)/ 3300(OC)/ 3200(OC)/ 3000(OC)/ 2800(OC)/ 2666/ 2400/ 2133

Either way ... unless it's been updated, this is the DDR4 JEDEC timing table.... anything higher than this is "by definition" an overclock. Overclocked does not mean "unsupported". Intel supports and guarantees all XMP overclocks.

pics.crucial.com/wcsstore/CrucialSAS/images/campaigns/c3-speed-vs-latency-table.png

John NaylorThe box, which will typically advertise XMP speed, is irrelevant. When you look at the SPD data for RAM, each column that says JEDEC at the top is, by definition, not overclocked. If it says XMP (or AMD equivalent) it is 'by definition" overclocked even though it has the XMP speed "on the box"
www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/extreme-memory-profile-xmp.html

For a stick, anything over the highest JEDEC rating is an OC. For the MoBo... just look at the specs, regardles of what it says on the Box, the latest BIOs or spec sheet will tell you what is and what is not OC

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144212

Everything that says OC is an overclock

Memory Standard: DDR4

The memory sticks are rated to run that speed. What you see on the box are the stock speeds for the sticks. The jedec specifications on the sticks are there for platform compatibility purposes and why it boots there - it is stock speeds for the processor/IMC. Not all IMCs are created equal. Once you enable XMP, this overclocks the IMC and brings the speed up to the sticks rated/stock speeds via that programmed profile.

Separate church (processor imc stock and oc) and state (what memory sticks are rated for vs programmed for compatibility/base spec). :)

All motherboards list "OC" on anything past platform spec because it isnt guaranteed and is overclocking the IMC. If it wasn't there people would think they could drop in anything and just run it those speeds. The sticks themselves come out of the box specd to run the speeds and the the motherboard supports it...they just need an IMC good enough to do so. THAT isnt a given. Only the processor/platform spec, and nothing more, is guaranteed. The sticks are guaranteed to run the speed on the box while having JEDEC specs for compatibility purposes.

Steam survey:

"User...once per year." Yup, Asian cybercafés will drown out everything else.

JossThese are gaming PCs numbers, there are millions of all-purpose desktops out there.
I'm sure AMD's total CPU share increased significantly since first Rizen's launch back in Feb 2017.

Doubtful, walk into any brick and mortar store or online retailer and you see mostly Intel.

R0H1TBecause it doesn't show wider real world trends? If you're talking just about steam users then the point is valid however Steam isn't anywhere near representative of the much wider, bigger computing world & that includes casual gamers among others.

There is always that person who never took stats class in high school or college and thinks math is "magic". :banghead:

EarthDogThe memory sticks are rated to run that speed. What you see on the box are the stock speeds for the sticks. The jedec specifications on the sticks are there for platform compatibility purposes and why it boots there - it is stock speeds for the processor/IMC. Not all IMCs are created equal. Once you enable XMP, this overclocks the IMC and brings the speed up to the sticks rated/stock speeds via that programmed profile.

Memory sticks have up to several JEDEC and XMP profiles. The highest advertised JEDEC speed of the IMC is the speed it's designed to run at (clock, timings and voltage). If you choose to operate with an XMP profile or manual configuration, then you're operating outside the specs of the IMC and stability is not guaranteed.
Let's look at some random examples;
Corsair CMV16GX4M1A2666C18, this one is certified to run at 2666 MHz 1.2V. It should work on any DDR4 2666 MHz compliant IMC.
G-Skill F4-3200C16Q2-128GTZ, this one advertises 3200 MHz, but only guarantees a lousy 2133 MHz. If these specs are accurate and it doesn't have higher JEDEC profiles than this, then it's a very bad deal.
JEDEC profiles are the ones to use unless you have a good reason not to.

efikkan....If you choose to operate with an XMP profile or manual configuration, then you're operating outside the specs of the IMC and stability is not guaranteed.

You keep repeating the same things I am saying. :)

The JEDEC spec is listed for compatibility reasons, yes. The sticks are rated to run at the XMP profiles speed. That does NOT mean the sticks are overclocked because they are above platform/JEDEC specifications. Again separate church from state. The IMC and its rating versus what the sticks are rated for on the box/XMP and its compatibility (JEDEC/SPD) profiles.

efikkanCorsair CMV16GX4M1A2666C18, this one is certified to run at 2666 MHz 1.2V. It should work on any DDR4 2666 MHz compliant IMC.

Correct. Those sticks are rated for 2666 on the box.

efikkanG-Skill F4-3200C16Q2-128GTZ, this one advertises 3200 MHz, but only guarantees a lousy 2133 MHz. If these specs are accurate and it doesn't have higher JEDEC profiles than this, then it's a very bad deal.

Where do you see it only guarantees 2133? That is the SPD/JEDEC profile for compatibility. It has the XMP profile and is rated for 3200 MHz............again, assuming your board and IMC on the processor can handle this. The sticks can.. they are tested and certified to do so by the company...hence the label on the box.

efikkanJEDEC profiles are the ones to use unless you have a good reason not to.

Huh? Why? There aren't any JEDEC/SPD profiles over platform (IMC) spec. How would I run the higher memory speeds if I didn't use the XMP profile/what the sticks are actually rated for??



EDIT: I don't know if a mod wants to split this off topic discussion out or what.............................