TheLostSwedeThat's a UK keyboard layout. Look at the left shift key and you'll see it's split and the |\ key is next to it, which only UK keyboards have. I ought to know, as my laptop has a UK keyboard...
That also means the #~ key has been relocated above the slim-line ANSI enter key.
Maybe not a deal breaker for a UK layout, but it really messes things up when you use say a Scandinavian layout, as the #~ changes to '* which is used a lot when typing English. Having it above the enter key is simply not usable. Acer seems to be doing the same crap with some of their ultrabooks.

Oh, yeah, you're right, I didn't spot that bottom left key. I completely agree that layouts like that are garbage for scandinavian languages - I'm perfectly fine with the traditional compromise of "nordic" layouts with heaps of letters on the ÆØÅ keys, but I couldn't live with an ANSI layout. I mean, I get that making different keyboard decks and keyboards increases costs and complicates shipping and handling due to loads of SKUs, but man ... how hard can it be? One ANSI deck, one ISO deck, with regional keyboards. Any OEM should be able to handle that.

TheLostSwedeI don't get why we should have to accept that dongles are part of life. The Vaio I linked to clearly shows it's possible to have decent connectivity in a very thin and light notebook. A lot of people use their notebooks for actual work and don't want to have to compromise on connectivity, just because the manufacturer decided to shave off 1mm in thickness. I've always been a huge fan of the Thinkpad X2x0-series, but alas, they ruined it and then discontinued it. Admittedly I've never bought a third battery for my notebook, but for real road warriors, it's possible to swap out the rear battery on my X250, while the notebook is still running, as it has a smaller, internal battery as well.

The thing is, I/O always changes through the lifetime of a laptop, so my main focus is having enough to make it flexible rather than having it fit every current need - a lot of those ports are likely to fall out of favor. Of course these days most I/O is fast enough that nothing really saturates it, especially USB 3.2x2 or TB3, but that also means that having a handful of these ports + enough easily convertible display outputs is generally enough for me, as it can handle any current needs I have + any future needs I foresee. I'm not a sysadmin so I don't need ethernet built in, and beyond that I'll much rather upgrade to a faster card reader/ethernet dongle/whatever USB doohickey than be constantly pushed towards feeling that my system is obsolete thanks to not having current I/O standards. Parts of how I kept my X201 useable over the years was due to the Expresscard slot letting me add USB 3.0 and having a docking station with a DP output - if not for that, being stuck with just USB 2.0 and VGA would have forced me to get rid of it far earlier (even with the HDD swapped to an SSD and a much newer WiFi card added in). Seeing how internal expansion cards for laptops are dead (and frankly, good riddance, as they are mostly just wasted space) using dongles is good enough for me.

TheLostSwedeThese days it's all about how thin a notebook can be, which is really useless imho. I guess it's largely thanks to Apple, as they've been pushing their own agenda by making thinner and thinner notebooks, to no benefit of the user beyond a certain point. Yes, weight matters, but that's a different matter and improved materials alone, have brought down the weight of most notebooks to a much more reasonable level than a few years ago.

I don't disagree with this at all, there's definitely a point of diminishing returns for thinness, and IMO it's been passed by a lot of manufacturers quite a while back. While I do see the ergonomic/handling benefits of the tapered chassis design of my partner's XPS 13 compared to my Latitude (it feels much better in the hand, carrying around, and perceived size and weight is significantly smaller despite only being marginally lighter and roughly the same size), I do like the relatively well-stocked I/O of the Latitude. There's a give and take there, definitely. I would say I prefer a balance of reasonable thickness/weight/size with sensible I/O, and I wouldn't want to go to extremes in either direction - the 12" MacBook/MacBook Air is just as unappealing to me as some 2.5kg 4cm thick monster 15.6" laptop, and Dell IMO nearly ruined the newest XPS 13 (which they came so close to getting right with the 16:10 display!) due to cutting the I/O even more. Ultimately I just think we have slightly different needs and thus different specific desires.

TheLostSwedeYour experience doesn't seem to be that different from me, although my first Notebook was a Dell Inspiron something or the other, that weighed in at 3.5kg... That only ever went on one trip with me...
The added camera gear was also why I wanted a light notebook, as the two together was madness.
Yes, 1.6kg is very reasonable for what this is and that's why I was interested in it, but it can't be called thin and light by today's standards, which was my point. It's pretty average for a notebook today, albeit not with the specs it has. It is thin and light for a gaming notebook though.

Exactly what I was trying to say :) Not technically thin and light by today's standards, but close enough not to matter to me, and certainly damn impressive for what it brings to the table. As I won't be buying anything this year though, now I'm just hoping for a follow-up next year with RDNA 2 GPUs, USB4 (one port is plenty) and HDMI 2.1. A display with faster response times would be nice too (maybe someone makes one by then!), but they can keep the chassis identical IMO. I don't see how they could fit anything more that would be of real value to me. The I/O placement is clunky, but cooling definitely is a higher priority (and I'd much rather have an annoying USB port than an exhaust fan toasting my hand).

Puzzling there are next to no 4000 series Ryzen laptops with Navi chips.

medi01Puzzling there are next to no 4000 series Ryzen laptops with Navi chips.

RX 5700M/5600M isn't physically launched yet. Expect more RDNA1 w/ Renoir by June, aka end of first half for 2020.

medi01Puzzling there are next to no 4000 series Ryzen laptops with Navi chips.

seronxRX 5700M/5600M isn't physically launched yet. Expect more RDNA1 w/ Renoir by June, aka end of first half for 2020.

Dell's G5 15 Special Edition comes with the 5600M and is supposed to launch in April.

@seronx @Valantar
5500M was released about 2 months ago:

www.msi.com/Laptop/Alpha-15-A3DX

Reviewers ranked it as "between 1650Ti and 1660TI Q"

I think I figured out the reason why this only has 8mb of L3 cache : power and thermals

I was looking at battery life and clocks and I don't think all of that is exclusively because of 7nm. Caches use a lot of power in processors, this 4900HS is monolithic so it doesn't have the same problem as the chiplet desktop chips therefore they were able to cut the cache in half, maintain performance and improve power efficiency considerably.

Vya DomusI think I figured out the reason why this only has 8mb of L3 cache : power and thermals

I think it was because they wanted 8-cores in a small die.

Zen w/ 8 MB L3 => ~44 mm2
Zen2 w/ 16 MB L3 => ~31 mm2

Basically placing a single Zen2 CCX around the die area of a single PD module+L2, PD+2 MB(~30.9).
Removing 12 MB from the CCX makes each CCX well within XV+1 MB(~14.48+5) to XV+2 MB(~14.48+10, if it existed). (Zen2 CCX with only 4 MB L3 is potentially less than 22 mm2)

Can't wait for Zen 2 to come to desktop.

ParnCan't wait for Zen 2 to come to desktop.

My dude...

www.google.com/search?q=zen+2+review&oq=zen+2+review&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.2618j0j7&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

2 words: Goodbye Intel.

EarthDogMy dude...

Maybe, your dood meant desktop Zen2 APU?

seronxMaybe, your dood meant desktop Zen2 APU?

Maybe...! But he surely didnt say that!! ;)

:eek:

KarymidoNAfter watching der8uer video i'm sure this thing is amazing, for a 14" model for 1500$ this is a monster price/Performance machine, not perfect for sure, but it really fills a lot of important boxes for a lot of people that need small, thin and powerfull machines on the go.

:respect:

As impressive as Zen2 mobile is, the laptop market really isn't high-end desktop replacements. That segment makes up less than 5% of the total laptop market.

No, the vast majority (like 70% or more) is in the $500-1000 thin-and-light market where the 4000U series are about a year and a half overdue already.

We don't want 16 core laptops anywhere near as much as we want 4-core laptops that can have a non-terrible GPU and can actually use that GPU for more than a couple of hours away from a wall socket.

Sincerely, the 70% of laptop buyers complaining about Intel IGPs.

Chrispy_As impressive as Zen2 mobile is, the laptop market really isn't high-end desktop replacements. That segment makes up less than 5% of the total laptop market.

No, the vast majority (like 70% or more) is in the $500-1000 thin-and-light market where the 4000U series are about a year and a half overdue already.

We don't want 16 core laptops anywhere near as much as we want 4-core laptops that can have a non-terrible GPU and can actually use that GPU for more than a couple of hours away from a wall socket.

Sincerely, the 70% of laptop buyers complaining about Intel IGPs.

lol I was just wondering if I am the only person who's more interested in a 4800U or 4900U laptop without discrete graphics.

Chrispy_As impressive as Zen2 mobile is, the laptop market really isn't high-end desktop replacements. That segment makes up less than 5% of the total laptop market.

No, the vast majority (like 70% or more) is in the $500-1000 thin-and-light market where the 4000U series are about a year and a half overdue already.

We don't want 16 core laptops anywhere near as much as we want 4-core laptops that can have a non-terrible GPU and can actually use that GPU for more than a couple of hours away from a wall socket.

Sincerely, the 70% of laptop buyers complaining about Intel IGPs.

The Vega iGPU in the new Ryzen 4000 is very powerful :D

ARFThe Vega iGPU in the new Ryzen 4000 is very powerful :D

This is probably a very CPU-limited scenario.

Edit:
Added the image reference to quote.

londisteThis is probably a very CPU-limited scenario.

Lenovo's upcoming Yoga Slim 7 with the 4800U shows excellent performance in Borderlands 3 according to leaked benchmark data from Notebookcheck.net. Slightly slower than the Nvidia MX350, significantly faster than the MX250. AFAIK that Lenovo runs the chip at 25W though (the wording around it is a bit odd, some coverage makes it sound like it's not 25W cTDP but rather a 15W configuration with an extended 25W turbo mode, but that sounds weird). Either way, excellent performance.




I see no reason whatsoever to expect Ryzen Mobile 4000U chips to not kick butt in games. The IGPUs are clocked significantly higher than before and have 2x the memory bandwidth accessible compared to previous DDR4-equipped alternatives. Obviously that's going to be a big improvement, regardless of having a few CUs less. And unless the game runs eight or lore very heavy threads (which no games do) the CPU is not going to starve the GPU for power even within the 15W TDP.

Flankerlol I was just wondering if I am the only person who's more interested in a 4800U or 4900U laptop without discrete graphics.

I originally was (these APUs look amazing), but the Asus G14 really got me going in terms of its astounding combination of size, weight and performance. I still might not get one (it is definitely on the expensive side and I won't be buying anything in the near future anyhow), and if not I'll likely be getting some sort of 13-14" U-series equipped 25W ultralight instead. Preferably with a 16:10 or 3:2 screen and a good keyboard. Fingers crossed for something like that showing up.

@Valantar, I did not want to quote the big picture but that graph is the quoted post was pretty misleading. Vega 8 in 4900HS will not perform at or above GTX1650 MaxQ in any GPU-limited scenario. Even without checking I am very sure Civilization VI at lowest settings is a CPU-limited test.

ARFThe Vega iGPU in the new Ryzen 4000 is very powerful :D

Flankerlol I was just wondering if I am the only person who's more interested in a 4800U or 4900U laptop without discrete graphics.

Could not care less about laptops. Give me that APU for AM4 already... :D

londiste@Valantar, I did not want to quote the big picture but that graph is the quoted post was pretty misleading. Vega 8 in 4900HS will not perform at or above GTX1650 MaxQ in any GPU-limited scenario. Even without checking I am very sure Civilization VI at lowest settings is a CPU-limited test.

That might be, but that doesn't change the fact that these APUs will have very powerful IGPUs. Also, it doesn't outperform it, it just has better 1% lows. Which as you say is possibly down to a CPU bottleneck, though if I were to guess I would say that laptop has a 4c8t CPU and/or poor cooling. If the 1650MQ is from the Blade Stealth (the only laptop I know of using that GPU) that is a very thermally constrained chassis.

My point was that this handpicked image is wrong to illustrate how powerful Ryzen 4000 series iGPU is. And it is. This type of test is used by almost all reviewers to test CPU, not GPUs.

Chrispy_As impressive as Zen2 mobile is, the laptop market really isn't high-end desktop replacements. That segment makes up less than 5% of the total laptop market.

No, the vast majority (like 70% or more) is in the $500-1000 thin-and-light market where the 4000U series are about a year and a half overdue already.

We don't want 16 core laptops anywhere near as much as we want 4-core laptops that can have a non-terrible GPU and can actually use that GPU for more than a couple of hours away from a wall socket.

Sincerely, the 70% of laptop buyers complaining about Intel IGPs.

I dont really now how much the higher segment takes up but the higher margins is in high-end laptops. The high-end market really is much more important than you think. Its also about PR, high-end equals more PR to what ever company.

Chrispy_As impressive as Zen2 mobile is, the laptop market really isn't high-end desktop replacements. That segment makes up less than 5% of the total laptop market.

No, the vast majority (like 70% or more) is in the $500-1000 thin-and-light market where the 4000U series are about a year and a half overdue already.

We don't want 16 core laptops anywhere near as much as we want 4-core laptops that can have a non-terrible GPU and can actually use that GPU for more than a couple of hours away from a wall socket.

Sincerely, the 70% of laptop buyers complaining about Intel IGPs.

If you pay the same for an 8-core as a competing 4-core and it still has a great iGPU, is there anything to complain about?

londisteMy point was that this handpicked image is wrong to illustrate how powerful Ryzen 4000 series iGPU is. And it is. This type of test is used by almost all reviewers to test CPU, not GPUs.

Outside of the 1650 mq it looks like a sensible ranking though, which speaks more of a poor implementation of it than issues with the test itself. Also isn't the CIV CPU test normally turn times and not FPS?

londisteMy point was that this handpicked image is wrong to illustrate how powerful Ryzen 4000 series iGPU is. And it is. This type of test is used by almost all reviewers to test CPU, not GPUs.

ValantarOutside of the 1650 mq it looks like a sensible ranking though, which speaks more of a poor implementation of it than issues with the test itself. Also isn't the CIV CPU test normally turn times and not FPS?

People don't follow guidelines by Intel and Nvidia. Everyone is free to test it the way they would like and think it's appropriate.

londisteCould not care less about laptops. Give me that APU for AM4 already... :D

Oh desktop APU's will be cool as well. I'll shove them into the smallest itx case I can find:laugh: