RahnakI never bought a used console but I did sell my PS3/games though.

My last console I've got as new was my first PS2 in 2002 :D (this one I have now is my fourth PS2)

ValantarIt's more on publishers frankly, they're the ones demanding strict deadlines and forcing developers (most of which are in extremely precarious economic situations unlike a lot of publishers) to release things that ideally would get half a year or a full year more development to fix bugs and polish everything.

Cartridges could indeed be good, but that would be really expensive - let's say they go with a base x2 NVMe controller, and use HMB to make it DRAMless, that's still a significant cost compared to a $60 sales price even for 64GB of flash, let alone the 128GB or more that many games would need. Remember, they couldn't use the bargain-basement flash found in USB drives and low-end SD cards, it simply isn't fast enough.

That's true about first part.

Second part, was similar back in NES days I remember where cartridge was way too expensive. But they found a way to reduce overall costs. They can do it again. Hence the concept of mass production. They just went with CD cause it fit more at the time while being cheaper. They could find a way but they wont cause its expensive for them to do so. Its all about minimal costs. Like lack of originality in components for most part as all use same x86 processor and even GPU just clocked differently and or more CU's (well, playstation has some kind of proprietary function on their AMD cpu but not entirely sure what it is as I didn't read too far into it).

Im like Luther, I am an old duck too and just prefer the old days of consoles vs now. But that is just my opinion.

sepheronxThat's true about first part.

Second part, was similar back in NES days I remember where cartridge was way too expensive. But they found a way to reduce overall costs. They can do it again. Hence the concept of mass production. They just went with CD cause it fit more at the time while being cheaper. They could find a way but they wont cause its expensive for them to do so. Its all about minimal costs. Like lack of originality in components for most part as all use same x86 processor and even GPU just clocked differently and or more CU's (well, playstation has some kind of proprietary function on their AMD cpu but not entirely sure what it is as I didn't read too far into it).

Im like Luther, I am an old duck too and just prefer the old days of consoles vs now. But that is just my opinion.

There is a lot of wishful thinking in that statement. First off, "they found a way to reduce costs. They could do it again" - did they, though? Carts were always expensive, and disks have always been much cheaper. From what I remember, the biggest cost savings came from using less storage in the carts, which of course constrained development massively (especially for the N64 which was competing with the disk-based PS1). You will always be able to stamp a thin metal film and squeeze it between a few layers of plastic more cheaply than you are able to assemble a non-volatile silicon-based storage medium. That's just reality. I mean, I would love if someone came up with an affordable non-volatile storage medium that performed on par with flash, but... the storage industry spends billions in R&D on that every year (not to mention universities around the world), but flash is the best we've got, and any replacement is likely to be based on some exotic tech and thus very expensive at least to begin with (such as 3D Xpoint). Flash has a cost. A controller has a cost. A PCB has a cost. A casing has a cost. You can't just wish those away, and volume pricing only gets you so far.

As for it all being about minimal costs: have you seen how many game developers go bankrupt every year? How they struggle between projects? How beholden they are to publishers and platform holders? For developers, it's about survival, about still having a job. For publishers, it's (a lot) about profits - but even their margins wouldn't survive a $20 cost hike for physical games without also increasing game prices. And a $20 base cost for a high performance flash-based game cartridge of sufficient capacity is realistic.

And as for "lack of originality in components"? Are there any alternatives you know of? The computing industry has matured and consolidated massively in the past two decades. In the early 2000s a start-up could show up with some new tech and deliver revolutionary features or performance from seemingly nothing. That is not even remotely possible today, simply because things have developed far beyond that point. I guess they could have gone for an ARM-based CPU, but that would mean no backwards compatibility, and besides, ARM scales worse than X86 at high power. For GPUs, you have a handful of vendors making very similar designs with very similar featuresets - a necessity to support the standards put in place to allow for development. And only two vendors make high performance GPUs, and only one of them has a CPU product and is open for semi-custom work.

These aren't the Xbox/PS2 days when a new console could realistically bring with it new and revolutionary features, simply because coming up with new and revolutionary features is increasingly difficult as time goes by. Most vendors deliver the same featuresets, though mobile GPU vendors are a generation or two behind. Nvidia did something like this with RTX, but now AMD seems to have caught up within a single generation - and it's standardized too, through DXR. And while standards do bring conformity, they also bring ease of development, ultimately delivering better games as developers can spend more time making games and less time learning how to use new and weird tools. The PS2 and PS3 were both excellent illustrations of how promising hardware can be undermined by it being difficult to program for (well, the PS3 had a sub-par GPU, but it's CPU was supposed to be revolutionary, but mostly turned out to be terrible to write games for).

This is how technological development will always go. There is a finite amount of possible hardware configurations that will do what is needed, and a finite amount of possible new techniques to achieve this. The majority will be developed early, and as time goes on, development of new tech/features will slow, simply because the list of new possible solutions is both shorter and the things on that list are much more complex. There might come paradigm shift-shift-like developments that kick off a new wave of innovation (replacing silicon in transistors, for example), but we really haven't seen anything like that in computing since its inception. So expecting equally dramatic developments in a mature field of technology (current PCs and consoles) as in an immature one (say, NES and SNES era consoles) is naive and out of touch with reality. It simply isn't going to happen.

A true (i.e. cheap) alternative to flash isn't coming anytime soon, what you can get now is something like this ~
Sony Deploys Generation 3 PetaSite Optical Disc Archive Technology

console 600$!
joystick150-200$!
games 75-100$

forget kids consoles and come PC world, where you are master andyou deside when you play games.
single game mode agenda!

:peace:

Looks like my air purifier

No doubt the cost for the cartridges would have been a lot to compete in storage space of the disk. But initially, cost was huge for third party developers simply because of nintendo's horrendous prices on licensing.

As for component base, well its obvious why they went with x86. Its just that now really, the difference is near non existent between the two besides of course exclusives. To which I say that with Xbox its even less of a need to buy cause most of if not all their games will be on PC anyway.

What I was really hoping for was some kind of Silent Hill game since Sony purchased it from Konami. Oh well.

sepheronxThat's true about first part.

Second part, was similar back in NES days I remember where cartridge was way too expensive. But they found a way to reduce overall costs. They can do it again. Hence the concept of mass production. They just went with CD cause it fit more at the time while being cheaper. They could find a way but they wont cause its expensive for them to do so. Its all about minimal costs. Like lack of originality in components for most part as all use same x86 processor and even GPU just clocked differently and or more CU's (well, playstation has some kind of proprietary function on their AMD cpu but not entirely sure what it is as I didn't read too far into it).

Im like Luther, I am an old duck too and just prefer the old days of consoles vs now. But that is just my opinion.

Both RTX Turing/Ampere and RDNA 2 include hardware-accelerated raytracing cores for real-time raytracing which are semi-conductor industry's leading-edge designs. A large amount of TFLOPS from RT cores that can be used beyond graphics related raytracing such as audio and physics.

CELL's SPU software raytracing design approach is no match against designs from NVIDIA's RTX and AMD's RDNA 2 RT cores.

For PS5's DSP, AMD easily designed SPU like solution from its existing CU IP which is CU design without graphics hardware.

AMD and NVIDIA are specialized companies for math array technology companies that produce leading-edge GPUs for most price segments.

Intel is evolving into the world's number 3 GPU design house after NVIDIA and AMD.

My point, if there's something unique concept, PC world will assimilate it.

rvalenciaBoth RTX Turing/Ampere and RDNA 2 include hardware-accelerated raytracing cores for real-time raytracing which are semi-conductor industry's leading-edge designs. A large amount of TFLOPS from RT cores that can be used beyond graphics related raytracing such as audio and physics.

CELL's SPU software raytracing design approach is no much against designs from NVIDIA's RTX and AMD's RDNA 2 RT cores.

For PS5's DSP, AMD easily designed SPU like solution from its existing CU IP which is CU design without graphics hardware.

Intel is evolving into the world's number 3 GPU design house after NVIDIA and AMD.

Given how poor the sound cards implementation is on the vast majority of mainboards, and users' poor headphones, especially those for gaming, it's kind of bizarre why the Audio is a target for development.

Yes, it should be, but the user base first must move to quality components and then the Audio quality should be considered.

rvalenciaBoth RTX Turing/Ampere and RDNA 2 include hardware-accelerated raytracing cores for real-time raytracing which are semi-conductor industry's leading-edge designs. A large amount of TFLOPS from RT cores that can be used beyond graphics related raytracing such as audio and physics.

CELL's SPU software raytracing design approach is no much against designs from NVIDIA's RTX and AMD's RDNA 2 RT cores.

For PS5's DSP, AMD easily designed SPU like solution from its existing CU IP which is CU design without graphics hardware.

Intel is evolving into the world's number 3 GPU design house after NVIDIA and AMD.

Agree with most of that, except for the last part: what about ARM, Imagination, Qualcomm, Apple? Sure, the third for desktop PC GPUs, but there are plenty of GPU makers out there. It's probably the most contested field in high performance computing still.

ARFGiven how poor the sound cards implementation is on the vast majority of mainboards, and users' poor headphones, especially those for gaming, it's kind of bizarre why the Audio is a target for development.

Yes, it should be, but the user base first must move to quality components and then the Audio quality should be considered.

There's a lot that can still be done even if output quality is poor - directionality/spatiality, adapting audio better to headphones, more dynamic audio (where RT comes in; reflections and other interactions with geometry), etc. If the processing power is there this can all be done even on a potato sound output device with Koss Porta Pros. Will it be good? Of course not. Will it be better than what the same people have today? Obviously. And more importantly, these qualities can have much more of an effect on game immersion and world building than pure audio quality - even if that obviously also matters a lot.

ValantarAgree with most of that, except for the last part: what about ARM, Imagination, Qualcomm, Apple? Sure, the third for desktop PC GPUs, but there are plenty of GPU makers out there. It's probably the most contested field in high performance computing still.

At desktop PC power level, ARM Mali, Imagination PowerVR and Qualcomm Adreno GPUs are inferior to Intel, AMD, NVIDIA.

Qualcomm Adreno GPU design is licensed from AMD in the 1st placed. LOL. Read www.electronicdesign.com/news/article/21754742/qualcomm-licenses-amd-graphics-core-ip

Adreno 6xx IGP has DirectX12 Feature 12_1 while AMD's RDNA 2 and NVIDIA's RTX have DirectX12 Feature 12_2 aka DirectX12 Ultimate.

ARM Mali GPU is a joke i.e. note why Samsung has licensed AMD's RDNA for mobile phones.

www.slashgear.com/samsung-galaxy-phone-with-amd-radeon-gpu-coming-next-year-30618905/
A GFXBench listing for the AMD RDNA architecture that will be used on future Samsung Exynos chips surpasses the current Qualcomm Adreno 650 in many of the synthetic benchmark tests. This Adreno GPU is the one used in the Snapdragon 865 which is already ahead of the race (except against Apple’s A13).

Apple's SoC and GPUs are pointless for 3rd party OEM/ODM vendors

Apple's hardware-accelerated raytracing.... LOL

For pure graphics power for Sony's usage, ARM Mali, Imagination PowerVR, Qualcomm Adreno and Apple A13 IGP solution are inferior AMD's RDNA 2 solution for PS5.

None of ARM Mali, Imagination PowerVR, Qualcomm Adreno 6xx and Apple A13 IGP solution will beat the power of PS4 let alone PS5.

ARFGiven how poor the sound cards implementation is on the vast majority of mainboards, and users' poor headphones, especially those for gaming, it's kind of bizarre why the Audio is a target for development.

Yes, it should be, but the user base first must move to quality components and then the Audio quality should be considered.

For Windows 10 PC platform, DirectX12 Ultimate is important for real-time audio raytracing along with graphics raytracing.

this design is much better than the original leaked one, which looked like an ugly space ship. This design is more clearer and minimalistic....

PumperTerrible design and the console is giant compared to the rest:

Based on this trend, the console would soon be the same size as a mid-tower PC. Well they are literally x86 PC with a fancy case and specialised OS anyway, so not surprised.

ParnBased on this trend, the console would soon be the same size as a mid-tower PC. Well they are literally x86 PC with a fancy case and specialised OS anyway, so not surprised.

well, you can't put powerful hardware ot tight spaces without overheat issues, it has to have a little space and a proper cooling, which demands bigger casing, so don't wonder why consoles are growing bigger...

Holy shit. Xbox eat your heart out... this is design, right here. Miles better than the previous version, too.

Damn that looks good... I see not everyone agrees :) But I like it... understated LED that you're not looking straight into, and the philosophy extends to the controller too. That wasn't the case before. It also looks straight up futuristic, could be a movie prop. Seems like a similar design approach to what Samsung does with its latest ultrawides. White with accent, curvy, smooth 'synthetic plating' look.

Also, blue led so it surely runs cooler than competition :pimp:

Bonus points for not looking like a bin, as well.

You're complementing the PS or trashing XSX :wtf:

R0H1TYou're complementing the PS or trashing XSX :wtf:

XSX was already a trash can, so its not hard :D To each his own though. But I'm a smoker, I might mistake the XSX for my ashtray, not good.

Note I'm just commenting on the design of both, not specs or actual performance. I reckon the XSX might have its heat management in order just a tad better from the way its built.

Well tbf it's only one angle, haven't seen a complete rundown of both the latest gens so can't say whether I won't mistake the XSX for a bin either.

R0H1TWell tbf it's only one angle, haven't seen a complete rundown of both the latest gens so can't say whether I won't mistake the XSX for a bin either.

Here you go, 2 seconds on DDG

I'd seriously be able to drop cig butt in there in some half drunk mood

rvalenciaAt desktop PC power level, ARM Mali, Imagination PowerVR and Qualcomm Adreno GPUs are inferior to Intel, AMD, NVIDIA.

Qualcomm Adreno GPU design is licensed from AMD in the 1st placed. LOL. Read www.electronicdesign.com/news/article/21754742/qualcomm-licenses-amd-graphics-core-ip

Adreno 6xx IGP has DirectX12 Feature 12_1 while AMD's RDNA 2 and NVIDIA's RTX have DirectX12 Feature 12_2 aka DirectX12 Ultimate.

ARM Mali GPU is a joke i.e. note why Samsung has licensed AMD's RDNA for mobile phones.

www.slashgear.com/samsung-galaxy-phone-with-amd-radeon-gpu-coming-next-year-30618905/
A GFXBench listing for the AMD RDNA architecture that will be used on future Samsung Exynos chips surpasses the current Qualcomm Adreno 650 in many of the synthetic benchmark tests. This Adreno GPU is the one used in the Snapdragon 865 which is already ahead of the race (except against Apple’s A13).

Apple's SoC and GPUs are pointless for 3rd party OEM/ODM vendors

Apple's hardware-accelerated raytracing.... LOL

For pure graphics power for Sony's usage, ARM Mali, Imagination PowerVR, Qualcomm Adreno and Apple A13 IGP solution are inferior AMD's RDNA 2 solution for PS5.

None of ARM Mali, Imagination PowerVR, Qualcomm Adreno 6xx and Apple A13 IGP solution will beat the power of PS4 let alone PS5.

None of that relates to what I said, nor to your initial statement - they are still "GPU design houses" by any reasonable definition of that term.

Also, nice "hey, you don't know anything" flex with "LOL Adreno is even based on an AMD design" stuff - not only is that common knowledge to anyone interested in GPUs, but it has no bearing on my point. AMD sold the Adreno design to Qualcomm in 2009 after all, and I'm willing to bet quite a lot that there has been significant design work done for those GPUs since then. So even if the basis was AMD (well, actually Imageon, bought by ATI, which was then bought by AMD), Qualcomm is nonetheless a GPU design house.

Vayra86Holy shit. Xbox eat your heart out... this is design, right here. Miles better than the previous version, too.

Damn that looks good... I see not everyone agrees :) But I like it... understated LED that you're not looking straight into, and the philosophy extends to the controller too. That wasn't the case before. It also looks straight up futuristic, could be a movie prop. Seems like a similar design approach to what Samsung does with its latest ultrawides. White with accent, curvy, smooth 'synthetic plating' look.

Also, blue led so it surely runs cooler than competition :pimp:

Bonus points for not looking like a bin, as well.

"Looking like a movie prop", especially when said movie is likely to be a low-budget B-rate pulp sci-fi job, is not that great a compliment. Most people don't want tacky "hey look ma, I drew a spaceship" designs in their living rooms. This looks cheap, tacky, and woefully poorly thought through. Combined with the (massive!) size (see previous post in this thread), this is going to be a problem for a lot of people.

Valantar"Looking like a movie prop", especially when said movie is likely to be a low-budget B-rate pulp sci-fi job, is not that great a compliment. Most people don't want tacky "hey look ma, I drew a spaceship" designs in their living rooms. This looks cheap, tacky, and woefully poorly thought through. Combined with the (massive!) size (see previous post in this thread), this is going to be a problem for a lot of people.

Here's the sort of design in my mind when I saw that PS ;) Wink wink

Do agree though, XSX is much easier to fit in any living room and not look like that sore thumb.
But for teenage bedroom with fancy lights? This fits right in. Yep you got me... I like those fancy lights too, to some degree :P

ValantarI drew a spaceship" designs in their living rooms.

Hey speak for yourself, I literally drew spaceships for a couple of years in middle(?) school using the shuttle images on our notebooks (the writing variety) & all up to scale with precision instruments of the time :pimp:

Space was & still is a topic close to heart, ever so often I kill time on YT with PBS spacetime videos.

Not a fan of the design. I can't tell but it looks like cheap plastic.
Hopefully it will not be plastic housing...

R0H1THey speak about yourself, I literally drew spaceships for fun for a couple of years in middle(?) school using the shuttle images on our notebooks (the writing variety) & all up to scale with precision instruments of the time :pimp:

Space was & still is a topic close to heart, ever so often I kill time on YT with PBS spacetime videos.

Yes, but as an adult, have you built models based on those drawings and featured them prominently in your living room? I didn't think so ;)

Vayra86Here's the sort of design in my mind when I saw that PS ;) Wink wink

Do agree though, XSX is much easier to fit in any living room and not look like that sore thumb.
But for teenage bedroom with fancy lights? This fits right in. Yep you got me... I like those fancy lights too, to some degree :p

I guess if you meld that with this, you do indeed have something looking like the PS5 :D

I can absolutely enjoy some over the top designs, but this just goes way beyond that and plants both feet + its ass directly in a heaping pile of "tacky". The design style is squarely mid-2000s, the shiny white plastic will look poor in real life compared to renders, the flowy shape will stand out next to anything and thus just emphasize the size of this thing, and the blue LED just screams "hey, I'm 13 years old!" There are many possible points on the axis between "bland and boring" and "over-the-top tacky", yet this seems to have aimed squarely for the latter pole. I don't think the XSX is the best design ever either, but at least it has some subtlety to it.

Spencer LeBlancNot a fan of the design. I can't tell but it looks like cheap plastic.
Hopefully it will not be plastic housing...

All consoles have plastic housings. Anything else is far too expensive. Plastic shell, steel inner cage to ensure rigidity and RF compliance.

ValantarYes, but as an adult, have you built models based on those drawings and featured them prominently in your living room? I didn't think so ;)

Yeah unfortunately I haven't set the room up, though generally speaking I prefer clean & spacious environments. Nearly everything that isn't used daily is crammed in an attic or any other storage space. I definitely am not pro flashy items anywhere I have control over, personal space is a bit different. Just to clarify ~ I don't find the PS5 flashy, at least from the image I see here.