Ouch..

This is only going to increase, but realistically - in the actual long term it won't work, China will catch up at some point. The potential is simply too big.

Dramatic IMHO, China has a fab that can do Duv 7nm multi patterned chip's, other fabs are way beyond that and I would love to have the context of yield rate's.

Without context I can say I run fast would the newspaper contact Usain Bolt for a comment, context.

Far too little, far too late. And a pointless endeavor anyway, with bad motivation. "Hurr durr we need 2 maintain American dominance"? Really? Is that why all the politicians here and all the companies here have done everything possible to export manufacturing to cheaper countries, putting Americans out of work, and replacing the ones that have to be stateside with H-1B visa holders, whom they can pay less than 1/3 of what an American would demand (by indirectly threatening them with deportation)? Beside that, from a consumer perspective, China having its own entirely domestic chip manufacturing would MASSIVELY increase competition for AMD, Intel, Nvidia, and other greedy, anti-consumer companies. These export control measures are only being put in place to protect corporate profits, at the expense of the public.

And then people in TPU comments and reddit threads whining about "b-but China is STEALING our IP!" absolutely tickle me. Yeah? And? And what do you mean "our" IP? You don't own any of this, you don't profit from it, you aren't involved or even tangentially connected to Apple's IP, or Intel's, or AMD's, or anyone else's. Why exactly should I care that these enormous, multinational, billion dollar companies who are given preferential treatment by every aspect of government compared to small businesses or, ya know, the public, are getting "hurt"? And why do *you* care? It just baffles me when people lick the boots of, of all things, corporations. Enormous, faceless, anti-public corporations. Just baffling.

Would I ever want to live in China? Absolutely not. But I wish them well in their chip and electronic manufacturing, even if most of the advancement comes from IP theft. In fact, *especially* if most of the advancement comes from IP theft, because it makes greedy corporations and their bizarrely protective foot soldier consumers seethe. These corporations hate the public and only want to extract as much wealth as possible, and you want me to defend them?

Lol. Lmao, even.

A little late by decades...

WorringlyIndifferentFar too little, far too late. And a pointless endeavor anyway, with bad motivation. "Hurr durr we need 2 maintain American dominance"? Really? Is that why all the politicians here and all the companies here have done everything possible to export manufacturing to cheaper countries, putting Americans out of work, and replacing the ones that have to be stateside with H-1B visa holders, whom they can pay less than 1/3 of what an American would demand (by indirectly threatening them with deportation)? Beside that, from a consumer perspective, China having its own entirely domestic chip manufacturing would MASSIVELY increase competition for AMD, Intel, Nvidia, and other greedy, anti-consumer companies. These export control measures are only being put in place to protect corporate profits, at the expense of the public.

And then people in TPU comments and reddit threads whining about "b-but China is STEALING our IP!" absolutely tickle me. Yeah? And? And what do you mean "our" IP? You don't own any of this, you don't profit from it, you aren't involved or even tangentially connected to Apple's IP, or Intel's, or AMD's, or anyone else's. Why exactly should I care that these enormous, multinational, billion dollar companies who are given preferential treatment by every aspect of government compared to small businesses or, ya know, the public, are getting "hurt"? And why do *you* care? It just baffles me when people lick the boots of, of all things, corporations. Enormous, faceless, anti-public corporations. Just baffling.

Would I ever want to live in China? Absolutely not. But I wish them well in their chip and electronic manufacturing, even if most of the advancement comes from IP theft. In fact, *especially* if most of the advancement comes from IP theft, because it makes greedy corporations and their bizarrely protective foot soldier consumers seethe. These corporations hate the public and only want to extract as much wealth as they can, and you want me to defend them?

Lol. Lmao, even.

Chips go into everything from microwaves to missiles. It's has less to do with "American dominance" and more to do with not giving tools to build weapons to a global bad actor.

Not sure you care though given your declared indifference. You are just ranting to rant.

Do I need to repeat it?

Yes, this is just a stalling tactic.

Semiconductor manufacturing is a race.

Guess what works in races?

R-T-BDo I need to repeat it?

Yes, this is just a stalling tactic.

Semiconductor manufacturing is a race.

Guess what works in races?

Tortoise?

Tech cold war. Isolating and separating, i'm sure it will make wonders for the future of humanity.

Bomby569Tech cold war. Isolating and separating, i'm sure it will make wonders for the future of humanity.

You implication is that somehow the US is to blame. Incorrect. The US sanctions are a reaction to Chinese Government actions. They started this, we're just reacting to it. Sooner or later they will realize the fooly of their resolve and they will change accordingly. Either that or there will be war.

lexluthermiesterYou implication is that somehow the US is to blame. Incorrect. The US sanctions are a reaction to Chinese Government actions. They started this, we're just reacting to it. Sooner or later they will realize the fooly of their resolve and they will change accordingly. Either that or there will be war.

Both sides are to blame honestly. Neither is trying to reach a middle ground. All i see is provocations on both sides.
People take war to lightly this days, even a cold one.

Bomby569Both sides are to blame honestly.

Sure, there's a fair amount of blame go around.

Bomby569Neither is trying to reach a middle ground.

Not true. China keeps making the claim that it owns Taiwan, which is false much like the claim on Tibet. The advantage Taiwan has is the ocean distance. It defensible and they have allies. China keeps pushing their other agenda's as well which are in compatible with western values. Finding middle-ground is like trying to find a needle in a haystack 2km tall.

R0H1TTortoise?

Only if the hare is dumb.

lexluthermiesterSure, there's a fair amount of blame go around.

Not true. China keeps making the claim that it owns Taiwan, which is false much like the claim on Tibet. The advantage Taiwan has is the ocean distance. It defensible and they have allies. China keeps pushing their other agenda's as well which are in compatible with western values. Finding middle-ground is like trying to find a needle in a haystack 2km tall.

This is a tech forum. Still I really don't see how any side can claim the moral ground here. Should we talk how the US got Hawaii, the chagossian people, iran contra, sorry would stay here all day. I imagine someone could, not those 2.

Annex Taiwan, problem solved.

Bomby569This is a tech forum. Still I really don't see how any side can claim the moral ground here. Should we talk how the US got Hawaii, the chagossian people, iran contra, sorry would stay here all day. I imagine someone could, not those 2.

Except that the context of this thread are about China VS the US and ONLY about the affairs involving those two nations.

You are confused if you think the US isn't trying to retain international hegemony while its reach it's declining and China becomes a superpower. Both are awful imperialists, sure, but the battle is who can do it better?

lexluthermiesterSure, there's a fair amount of blame go around.

Not true. China keeps making the claim that it owns Taiwan, which is false much like the claim on Tibet. The advantage Taiwan has is the ocean distance. It defensible and they have allies. China keeps pushing their other agenda's as well which are in compatible with western values. Finding middle-ground is like trying to find a needle in a haystack 2km tall.

A lot of countries make a lot of territorial claims. The Taiwan (RoC) and China (PRC) issue is simply a matter of a civil war that was paused but that has never ended. RoC used to have the advantage but over the years as its much bigger old enemy developed that advantage has turned into a huge disadvantage. It is inevitable that eventually this civil war will be restarted and won by the most powerful faction. Now, personally I wish the people of Taiwan nothing but the best and it would be great if they could continue to have full self-determination but that is simply not the way that the world has ever worked or will ever work. There a lot of peoples who you could argue have the right to self-determination and yet they do not (one of the best examples would be the Kurds). Yet we do not go risking a war between the world's two (largest) superpowers and possible a massive nuclear conflict over that or do we? That would be truly insane right? What was the point of managing the North-South Korea (and in the process PRC-US) relationship for so long to avoid a(nother) horrific conflict, only to now start a world war over the small island of Taiwan? The best outcome here is what the PRC calls a "peaceful reunification" because there will be some kind of reunification eventually, no matter what. And why do "Western values" have to be imposed in East Asia? Is this still the 19th century or what? How about just leaving other parts of the world alone for a change? The era of Western domination of the world is coming to an end and the sooner that people here in the West understand that, the better.

And do not even mention anything about "defending democracy"... When has the US ever defended democracy in its long-time ally Saudi Arabia? How strongly did the US defend democracy and self-determination for the Palestinians? I think we both know the answers to those questions. Why was South Korea a military dictatorship until the late 1980s with full US backing (similar situation in Chile under Pinochet). I can go on and on.

lexluthermiesterExcept that the context of this thread are about China VS the US and ONLY about the affairs involving those two nations.

how does the centuries old China and Taiwan problem you talked about involve the US?

I guess the US gets in middle of almost anything anywhere, all of Europe, most of Asia, Africa, South America, that the line becomes blurry and all is a US affair.

mplayerMuPDFA lot of countries make a lot of territorial claims. The Taiwan (RoC) and China (PRC) issue is simply a matter of a civil war that was paused but that has never ended. RoC used to have the advantage but over the years as its much bigger old enemy developed that advantage has turned into a huge disadvantage. It is inevitable that eventually this civil war will be restarted and won by the most powerful faction. Now, personally I wish the people of Taiwan nothing but the best and it would be great if they could continue to have full self-determination but that is simply not the way that the world has ever worked or will ever work. There a lot of peoples who you could argue have the right to self-determination and yet they do not (one of the best examples would be the Kurds). Yet we do not go risking a war between the world's two (largest) superpowers and possible a massive nuclear conflict over that or do we? That would be truly insane right? What was the point of managing the North-South Korea (and in the process PRC-US) relationship for so long to avoid a(nother) horrific conflict, only to now start a world war over the small island of Taiwan? The best outcome here is what the PRC calls a "peaceful reunification" because there will be some kind of reunification eventually, no matter what. And why do "Western values" have to be imposed in East Asia? Is this still the 19th century or what? How about just leaving other parts of the world alone for a change? The era of Western domination of the world is coming to an end and the sooner that people here in the West understand that, the better.

And do not even mention anything about "defending democracy"... When has the US ever defended democracy in its long-time ally Saudi Arabia? How strongly did the US defend democracy and self-determination for the Palestinians? I think we both know the answers to those questions. Why was South Korea a military dictatorship until the late 1980s with full US backing (similar situation in Chile under Pinochet). I can go on and on.

Bomby569how does the centuries old China and Taiwan problem you talked about involve the US?

I guess the US gets in middle of almost anything anywhere, all of Europe, most of Asia, Africa, South America, that the line becomes blurry and all is a US affair.

Oh, you two sure showed me...:rolleyes: I guess I better show myself out...;)