ValantarI see that tweet as saying "they could run DLSS3 on Ampere, but without Lovelace's FP8 support, it would be so slow as to make it very laggy". Which, again, translates to it not having the required hardware to really run it. I mean, you can run anything FP8 in an FP16 core, but unless that core can execute two consecutive FP8 instructions you need as many FP16 cores as you would need FP8 cores on the newer model - which the older hardware is extremely unlikely to have. In other words: it could technically run it, but it would run it at such a low performance level that it would be unusable. This is also a very strong argument for DLSS3 never being back-ported to previous architectures - unless they could make it work in FP16 at a similar performance level (which is highly unlikely).

If Lovelace delivers packed FP8 instructions (i.e. 1xFP32, 2xFP16, 4xFP8) through the tensor cores, then for anything actually running FP8 that is an instant 2x performance increase over previous generations running the same workload, with no real way of working around it.

This also doesn't really say that DLSS3 is necessarily laggy on Lovelace - as long as the FP8 can keep up, delivering that interpolated frame in the gap between the previous and next frame, then it should be completely fine. There's no reason why this should increase input lag unless the interpolated frame causes the next "real" frame to be delayed.

It used with reflex and giving 55ms ping. If you looked into the Nvidia claims on the reflex, it shows 77ms reduces to 51ms so in this gameplay, it gets 55ms so ping could be higher than 77ms. Is 80-90ms ping low? DLSS 2.0 got 57ms.



You are right for DLSS 3.0 support. I saw on the Nvidia's site but we could see DLSS 3.0 bring out with FP16 because of the FSR 3.0 if it competes DLSS 3.0.

Fourth-generation Tensor Cores: Up to 2x faster AI training performance than the previous generation with expanded support for the FP8 data format.

Also I saw on the news, Huang said these prices never gonna be down.
www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-ceo-high-prices-for-gpus-are-here-to-stay

In addition, according to the employer in the Nvidia link: www.resetera.com/threads/nvidia-debuts-dlss-3-october-12th-release-35-games-will-get-support.634256/page-3#post-93607910

When a DLSS 3 games comes out, and you own a GeForce RTX 30 Series or 20 Series graphics card or laptop, you can use DLSS 2 Super Resolution in that title.

This is the same Super Resolution technology available in over 200 games and apps.

There's also a benefit for every GeForce RTX GPU: DLSS 3 comes packaged with NVIDIA Reflex, which works on all generations of GeForce RTX GPUs, and also some older GTX series.

So if you own a GeForce RTX 30 or 20 Series, you would get DLSS 2 + Reflex. Even if a game is labelled as a "DLSS 3 Game".

ValantarSorry, but where are you getting the idea that energy from renewable resources is supposed to be free? Do you imagine that building, running and maintaining a power plant doesn't have a cost? They're cheap in the long run, but not free.

Also, did you read anything at all of the post I responded to? The countries you mention do not use electricity for heating, they use gas for heating. Gas is their major domestic energy expenditure, and gas is traded in the same system as electricity in the EU. There are of course exceptions - there is a move towards less reliance on natural gas for heating, but pricing hasn't followed yet, meaning anyone there using electricity for heating is in a pretty good position.

As for gas prices: more than 5x higher according to this source (and historically, EU energy prices have been significantly higher than Norwegian prices, which makes any increase here look bigger). Here are reports of recent energy pricing protests in Germany; energy prices are a big part of the ongoing and hotly protested cost of living crisis across the continent. It's not getting much exclusive attention because it's tied into rising prices for food and other necessities as well, but energy prices are a central part of this crisis.

I mean, you're explicitly contradicting yourself here, on the one hand you say "they pay peanuts for energy", and on the other you say "they pay for gas, not electricity", which ... well, if you read my previous post, maybe you'd understand why this is effectively the same thing - it's the core domestic source of energy, is traded within the same system, and is used for the same things. Norway uses mainly electricity and that's where prices are high; continental Europe uses mostly gas and that's where prices are high. Trying to separate these two is actively misleading and just downright misrepresenting reality - the current situation in Norway is in no way unique.

Lets leave this subject since that is not the topic here. What I will say is that, renewable energy is to lower costs of exploitation and reduce pollution at the same time but the costs of transferring have to be paid. Here we are talking about the electricity since energy as an industry is broader than that.

I really don't care what they are using for heating but I would rather focus on an electricity consumption over one household. Which is comparable but the price is not. You also have to keep in mind that these countries are almost 9 times bigger than Norway (Poland) and 20 times bigger(Germany). The amount of electricity these are using puts entire Norway to a district in a city or one city.
I'm not talking about energy prices here but electricity only. The price for electricity has grown in these two countries but not by such a margin like 10 times. In Norway it did and that is a fact. The protests are mainly due to oil price and sanctions for Russia and gas from them. Petrol and Diesel price is high (same as in Norway BTW) Even though Norway exports all of Gas and a lot of Oil. With the protests, you also have to keep in mind that most of them are political if you know what I mean and the main problem is increasing prices for food which correlates with transportation and oil price and sanctions due to Russian invasion on Ukraine.

You dont get it I think. You say I contradict myself but that is not correct. They pay more for gas not electricity (liquid gas and also petrol diesel) I'm talking specifically about electricity which is only part of energy industry. Nothing more. You mentioned energy not me and that it is risen by a noticeable margin in German and Poland for instance. Yes but that ENERGY consists of everything not just electricity. That is what I'm pointing out. The other thing I'm pointing out is electricity did not increase that much in these two countries but for some reason it did in Norway.

Ibotibo01It used with reflex and giving 55ms ping. If you looked into the Nvidia claims on the reflex, it shows 77ms reduces to 51ms so in this gameplay, it gets 55ms so ping could be higher than 77ms. Is 80-90ms ping low? DLSS 2.0 got 57ms.



You are right for DLSS 3.0 support. I saw on the Nvidia's site but we could see DLSS 3.0 bring out with FP16 because of the FSR 3.0 if it competes DLSS 3.0.


Also I saw on the news, Huang said these prices never gonna be down.
www.pcmag.com/news/nvidia-ceo-high-prices-for-gpus-are-here-to-stay

In addition, according to the employer in the Nvidia link: www.resetera.com/threads/nvidia-debuts-dlss-3-october-12th-release-35-games-will-get-support.634256/page-3#post-93607910

No way would I take Huang at his word.

If they don't drop price's they're going to be in trouble by this time next year IMHO.

TheoneandonlyMrKNo way would I take Huang at his word.

If they don't drop price's they're going to be in trouble by this time next year IMHO.

He just sounds salty that the 3090ti dropped a 4080 12GB in price in 6 months.

What I'm thinking is the 4080ti will be released at some point at $1200 using AD102 and maybe 20GB of vram then the 16GB will drop to $899-999 and the 12GB varient will drop to $699-79.

Assuming AMD actually competes on price and is actually competitive. If AMD just copies Nvidia then budget gamers are gonna have a bad day going forward if they want a new gen gpu.

If AMD doesn’t match the RT performance by 80-90%, rdna3 is DOA.
nVidia put the prices high so they can lower them in case of the others are competitive.
In a night they can lower the 16gb to 999 and the 12gb to 699.

We need a ryzen instead of Radeon gpu….

AusWolfGoing balls-to-the-walls with AD102 in the 4090 is understandable. It's a flagship product, it sells by name alone.

That's true - but there's nothign saying a flagship has to be >600mm2. The GP102 was just 471mm2, and was definitely flagship-worthy. That's why I think competition also plays into this - they're sufficiently scared of AMD surpassing them that they clearly didn't take any chances in terms of absolute performance.

AusWolfThe problem is, you have the AD103 in the 4080 16 GB and the AD104 in the 4070 *khm* 4080 12 GB, which are also marketed as semi-flagship models at such prices. Never has a xx4 chip been in a flagship product. Ever. They're basically saying "it's not a flagship product, but you'll think it is and you'll buy one because you're stupid."

Yeah, this is so utterly absurd to me. I mean, just the fact that they're spinning up mass production of three large dice for their three first cards is beyond stupid, and then you have a 4-tier chip in a "flagship" 8-tier GPU, and then you have that GPU cost $200 more than its "predecessor" based on a 2-tier chip. It's just downright bonkers.

AusWolfThat's why I still play at 1080p native. Brute force is the way. :cool:

Honestly, 1080p is fine for many games, especially at 27" or less. 32" 1080p is too low for me. But 27" 1080p for desktop use is unacceptable for me - games don't need the same sharpness as text.

ratirtLets leave this subject since that is not the topic here. What I will say is that, renewable energy is to lower costs of exploitation and reduce pollution at the same time but the costs of transferring have to be paid. Here we are talking about the electricity since energy as an industry is broader than that.

Lol, "let's leave this subject" - then three paragraphs on nothing else. Cool.

ratirtI really don't care what they are using for heating but I would rather focus on an electricity consumption over one household. Which is comparable but the price is not. You also have to keep in mind that these countries are almost 9 times bigger than Norway (Poland) and 20 times bigger(Germany). The amount of electricity these are using puts entire Norway to a district in a city or one city.
I'm not talking about energy prices here but electricity only. The price for electricity has grown in these two countries but not by such a margin like 10 times. In Norway it did and that is a fact. The protests are mainly due to oil price and sanctions for Russia and gas from them. Petrol and Diesel price is high (same as in Norway BTW) Even though Norway exports all of Gas and a lot of Oil. With the protests, you also have to keep in mind that most of them are political if you know what I mean and the main problem is increasing prices for food which correlates with transportation and oil price and sanctions due to Russian invasion on Ukraine.

You dont get it I think. You say I contradict myself but that is not correct. They pay more for gas not electricity (liquid gas and also petrol diesel) I'm talking specifically about electricity which is only part of energy industry. Nothing more. You mentioned energy not me and that it is risen by a noticeable margin in German and Poland for instance. Yes but that ENERGY consists of everything not just electricity. That is what I'm pointing out. The other thing I'm pointing out is electricity did not increase that much in these two countries but for some reason it did in Norway.

Okay, so here's the thing: when people in Europe are talking about gas prices, this is the price for natural gas used for heating, cooking, etc., not the American English "gas" = fuel for cars. Yes, there have also been protests against vehicle fuel prices, but these are quite a while back, and entirely insignificant against current reactions to energy pricing.

Here's some statistics for you: for theEU, the natural gas/electricity split in energy usage is ~57/43%(though that's not the whole sum, as there's also renewables such as "energy recycling" (burning waste to generate heat) and other fuel sources - their overall total splits are 31.7%/24.8%). In Norway, there is no centralized infrastructure for domestic gas use, so the proportion of home heating, cooking etc. represented by natural gas is essentially zero. All our domestic energy is either electric or those "other" sources.

What does this mean? That when prices go up for us, due to high Russian gas prices (which affect electricity prices due to the overall market dynamics, gas being traded alongside electricity, and the prevalence of gas power plants), our electricity prices rise. There is no "gas price" here, so it literally can't rise. While in Europe, the prices that rise the most are the natural gas prices, as that's the direct cause of the rise - and they use a lot more of it compared to electricity. Prices for electricity also rise, but less, as there's less pressure on that market. It's all traded through the same system - Nord Pool - which means that these prices cannot be separated from each other - which is why Norwegian electricity prices rise alongside German, French, UK, Polish and Baltic gas prices (and electric prices, but to a lesser degree).

As for why your friends use that much electricity - poorly insulated houses? Excessive habits? I have no idea, and I don't care to speculate into it. They might be one of the few households that use only electricity for cooling? Either way, it doesn't matter: your one-sided focus on electricity prices is entirely missing the point, as they are fundamentally inseparable from gas prices. Arguing that "well, their electricity prices haven't risen as much as ours have" while ignoring that their gas prices - which were already higher per energy unit than our electricity prices to begin with - have increased by 5x .... well, that's just plain stupid.

An example: let's say we have two countries. In country A, 100% of cars are petrol powered; in B it's a 70/30 diesel/petrol split. There's a crisis, and in A, petrol prices rise by double, while in B they only rise by 40%. Is that the full picture? Obviously not - B uses more diesel, so looking at diesel prices is crucial to any kind of workable understanding of conditions in country B. Claiming otherwise is just willful blindness. And that's exactly what you're doing here - you're being overly selective with the data you're basing your claims on, cherry-picking data that supports your conclusions rather than accepting that in terms of domestic energy pricing comparisons across Europe, you have to include both gas and electricity.

gffermariIf AMD doesn’t match the RT performance by 80-90%, rdna3 is DOA.
nVidia put the prices high so they can lower them in case of the others are competitive.
In a night they can lower the 16gb to 999 and the 12gb to 699.

We need a ryzen instead of Radeon gpu….

Why would they be DOA? Do they need to match Lovelace in RT performance? No. They need to be price competitive, and ideally ahead. But if the 7900 XT is, let's say 70% of the RT performance of the 4090, and costs $999? That would be an excellent deal, especially if rasterization performance is on the same level as the RTX.

Also: Nvidia does not want to lower prices. They have said so directly in an earnings call to investors: they are actively forcing distributors and AIB partners to hold back stock in order to avoid RTX 3000-series prices dropping. They have far, far, far too much Ampere stock still laying around unsold, and need to rid themselves of this before they can start doing anything much with Lovelace. They overproduced for the crypto boom, and now they're in (modest) trouble due to that. If AMD comes out swinging with RDNA3 pricing, Nvidia has painted themselves into a corner, as any aggressive price cuts will now explicitly put them at risk of large-scale shareholder lawsuits.

TheoneandonlyMrKNo way would I take Huang at his word.

If they don't drop price's they're going to be in trouble by this time next year IMHO.

The problem is, words given to investors in an official call are borderline legally binding. They'll be facing some pretty annoyed investors if they suddenly about-face on pricing.

gffermariIf AMD doesn’t match the RT performance by 80-90%, rdna3 is DOA.

This is wrong, RT still is not a factor, if RDNA3's Raster blows NVIDIA out of the water and the RT is only Half of NVIDIAs that is a win.

Valantar[...]Nvidia has painted themselves into a corner, as any aggressive price cuts will now explicitly put them at risk of large-scale shareholder lawsuits.
The problem is, words given to investors in an official call are borderline legally binding. They'll be facing some pretty annoyed investors if they suddenly about-face on pricing.

Wrong information lead to a lawsuit, wrong stock for 30x0 or wrong information about crypto-sales compared to gamer sales. If the information given were correct, a recession starts, there are price adjustments and a reduction in profit expectations, normal stuff at the markets. I expect both to happen.

ValantarLol, "let's leave this subject" - then three paragraphs on nothing else. Cool.

It is polite to answer and leave this subject meaning do not flood the thread with off topic matters. No it is not cool to be fair.

ValantarOkay, so here's the thing: when people in Europe are talking about gas prices, this is the price for natural gas used for heating, cooking, etc., not the American English "gas" = fuel for cars. Yes, there have also been protests against vehicle fuel prices, but these are quite a while back, and entirely insignificant against current reactions to energy pricing.

Here's some statistics for you: for theEU, the natural gas/electricity split in energy usage is ~57/43%(though that's not the whole sum, as there's also renewables such as "energy recycling" (burning waste to generate heat) and other fuel sources - their overall total splits are 31.7%/24.8%). In Norway, there is no centralized infrastructure for domestic gas use, so the proportion of home heating, cooking etc. represented by natural gas is essentially zero. All our domestic energy is either electric or those "other" sources.

What does this mean? That when prices go up for us, due to high Russian gas prices (which affect electricity prices due to the overall market dynamics, gas being traded alongside electricity, and the prevalence of gas power plants), our electricity prices rise. There is no "gas price" here, so it literally can't rise. While in Europe, the prices that rise the most are the natural gas prices, as that's the direct cause of the rise - and they use a lot more of it compared to electricity. Prices for electricity also rise, but less, as there's less pressure on that market. It's all traded through the same system - Nord Pool - which means that these prices cannot be separated from each other - which is why Norwegian electricity prices rise alongside German, French, UK, Polish and Baltic gas prices (and electric prices, but to a lesser degree).

As for why your friends use that much electricity - poorly insulated houses? Excessive habits? I have no idea, and I don't care to speculate into it. They might be one of the few households that use only electricity for cooling? Either way, it doesn't matter: your one-sided focus on electricity prices is entirely missing the point, as they are fundamentally inseparable from gas prices. Arguing that "well, their electricity prices haven't risen as much as ours have" while ignoring that their gas prices - which were already higher per energy unit than our electricity prices to begin with - have increased by 5x .... well, that's just plain stupid.

An example: let's say we have two countries. In country A, 100% of cars are petrol powered; in B it's a 70/30 diesel/petrol split. There's a crisis, and in A, petrol prices rise by double, while in B they only rise by 40%. Is that the full picture? Obviously not - B uses more diesel, so looking at diesel prices is crucial to any kind of workable understanding of conditions in country B. Claiming otherwise is just willful blindness. And that's exactly what you're doing here - you're being overly selective with the data you're basing your claims on, cherry-picking data that supports your conclusions rather than accepting that in terms of domestic energy pricing comparisons across Europe, you have to include both gas and electricity.

Yes natural gas but also oil (oil as a fossil fuel not sunflower cooking etc.) I thought you understand what I was trying to say.
Again, you referred to Energy as a whole I'm talking only about electricity. Gas is mainly heating and cooking in EU fine but the consumption of electricity in watts per hour in a house hold in Germany is equivalent as it is in Norway. Norway is not using any resources with natural gas all is being exported. How do i know? I work for oil industry (fossil duels not cooking). So if gas price goes up it means nothing for Norway or it should mean nothing since Norway is not a consumer of gas. You an still insist on talking about Energy as a whole I still will point electricity as my objective.
You pay 10 times more for 1KW of electricity in Norway than you do in any other EU country. Oil price is tied to Russian invasion on Ukraine and it has been up for some time and gas (as gasoline diesel) price has gone up twice ( from 13-15nok to 20-28Nok) but that is everywhere in EU. Electricity is tied to oil but not as much as fuel so the price did not see as much of an increase except Norway.
EU uses more gas obviously but they use 10 times more electricity (despite relying mostly on gas) than Norway. NO is 5 million people. Germany is 80 million people. So entire Norway is like a Berlin with suburbs. Which country you think uses more electricity despite the fact that Norway rely on electricity in full than on natural gas. What you are saying is irrelevant about NO not using natural gas.

Hehe that is a funny statement from your side. :) It is not how much they use but how much they have to pay for it. Maybe they use it for air condition? What I hear Germany was very hot this year unlike Norway. Does it matter really? 1kw in Germany is way cheaper than it is in Norway. around 10 times cheaper. It does not matter what you use the electricity for but how much you have pay for it.

A the split again. one country is 5million people and the other is 80 million. How is your percentage relevant in that case? You need to take into account a measure like 1liter to calculate with consumption. you do not calculate that as a percentage. You calculate it for one unit. which for me means 1KW/h. You need to pay 10 times more for 1kw/h in Norway than it is in any other country in EU. It does not matter that Norway relies on electricity and other countries on gas. It totally doesnt matter. I don't t think my approach is cherry picking. Yours is.
I focus how much you pay for 1KW/h you give percentage of how much gas to other energy sources is being used across EU which is irrelevant. At least that is what I think. :)
Anyway lets just talk about the topic of this thread. any other stuff you want to mention or say about our dispute can go on private not here.

ratirtnonsense really? I have friends in Germany and Poland. They pay peanuts for energy. Literally nothing per month. to give you and example.
In Poland, my friend pays 320NOK per 2 MOTHS OF ELECTRICITY using around 250-300KW/H per month (you get it? ) Two fucking months. You know how much I paid for 300KW/H for last month? 2200NOK

This might be a bit of a generalization.

It all depends on whether you are a private person or a business, and if you live in a house or in an apartment building.

Small businesses like bakeries are getting insane increases to the cost of electricity - even 4 to 5 times. Bread is getting more and more expensive every month. Regular people will be affected too, but not as much. Heating is a much bigger problem, some people who live in houses will be freezing.

Worth noting that the average income in Poland is about 3 times lower than in western Europe. And average income is completely not representative of the majority. I have never even been close to average income.

I pay about 50 EUR for a month of electricity, which is a lot for me, but I do use a lot of electronic equipment.

ValantarI'm not saying that you did, but the rhetoric of "I worked hard for my wealth" can't be extracted from its inherent politics or implications. Claiming that such statements aren't making a strong implication that less wealthy people are either not working as hard, and/or are just less deserving overall is ... well, IMO impossible - after all, what you said strongly references meritocracy and the idea that there's a linear(ish) relation between work and rewards (both of which are pure and utter BS). Which is what I was pointing out. I'm not saying that you were explicitly saying this, but the implication is there whether you like it or not. There is no other logically sound argument to be extracted from what you said - and after all, you were quite explicit in your "if it's too expensive, then this just isn't for you" approach. I'm not putting words in your mouth, just making the very strong implications from your rhetoric and point of view explicit. You're very welcome to argue for how you mean something different than that - but that would require actual arguments. Beyond that, putting the two statements of your post together very strongly implies "well, if you can't afford this, you haven't been working hard enough, unlike me". That might not be what you intended to say, but it's right there in what you said regardless of intention.

You are such a spaz. I stated facts:

1. If you can’t afford it you aren’t the target market.
2. I work very hard(12+ hours daily, 6 days per week for over 20 years) and that’s why I can afford these things now, where they were a hardship when I was younger.

If you’re offended by either of those statements, or need to read more into it than what I explicitly stated… well, maybe you should figure out what’s making you so unhappy in life and fix it.

dir_dThis is wrong, RT still is not a factor, if RDNA3's Raster blows NVIDIA out of the water and the RT is only Half of NVIDIAs that is a win.

Even from Turing era, we have exceeded the need for more raster performance.
I personally don't care about raster performance at all.
I want numbers where it counts and that's in RT.

gffermariEven from Turing era, we have exceeded the need for more raster performance.
I personally don't care about raster performance at all.
I want numbers where it counts and that's in RT.

I dont know how you can say that when games get more complicated with more textures every year. I run 4k 120hz on a 3080TI and i would still love more Raster for a lower price than Nvidia is providing. RT does a a tiny bit of immersion for me but most of the time i am too focused on the game to really look at RT features. I need the High FPS with no dips or tearing in the latest games.

Ngreedia has placed themselves in a lose, lose, lose situation by proclaiming this ignorant, hardline, price immobility clause with Ada.
They are leaning hard on gamers to stretch their already hard pressed incomes. The vast majority of which aren't going to improve anytime soon. Most likely the opposite in fact. Leather jacket boy is likely going to find that many gamers/enthusiasts are more than happy to roll with their best selling Ampere cards (remember that announcement?) for a lil bit longer than he had anticipated.
They compound the situation by competing against themselves with Ampere and oh yeah, lets not forget about all of those juicey ass Radeon 6000 deals everywhere.
Then of course the cherry on top, after pricing their long awaited flag ship parts in the full on retarded realm, while the world is in the midst of an oncoming recession. So that while even joe blow is tightening up the old purse strings (you know, those wienies they rely upon to make up the other half of their income with launch parts). They have literally the smallest consumer base with which to rely upon for flag ship sales this launch. The die hards, corporate buyers, and fanboys.
They have set themselves up for an incredibly poor 2023. Their 4th qtr 22 numbers may be respectable (if they're lucky) but that likely has more to do with Ampere sales than Ada.

Brilliant forecasting.

dir_dI dont know how you can say that when games get more complicated with more textures every year. I run 4k 120hz on a 3080TI and i would still love more Raster for a lower price than Nvidia is providing. RT does a a tiny bit of immersion for me but most of the time i am too focused on the game to really look at RT features. I need the High FPS with no dips or tearing in the latest games.

Do they get more complicated? I feel like rasterization possibilities have been maxed out. I have not seen any more progress in graphics without ray tracing for a few years now.
If you are too focused on the game to notice RT, you will not notice ultra settings or native 4K resolution either. Maybe even more so.

4K120 is a total niche, but that is probably the only case where you need a lot more performance. My undervolted 3080 does 4K60 is almost every game without RT. Sometimes I have to drop some ridiculous setting to get it locked at 60, because I use Vsync with BFI. With VRR, I could have everything maxed out.

Ray tracing is the future and it will continue to evolve. But right now the price for it is too high.

THU31Do they get more complicated? I feel like rasterization possibilities have been maxed out. I have not seen any more progress in graphics without ray tracing for a few years now.
If you are too focused on the game to notice RT, you will not notice ultra settings or native 4K resolution either. Maybe even more so.

4K120 is a total niche, but that is probably the only case where you need a lot more performance. My undervolted 3080 does 4K60 is almost every game without RT. Sometimes I have to drop some ridiculous setting to get it locked at 60, because I use Vsync with BFI. With VRR, I could have everything maxed out.

Ray tracing is the future and it will continue to evolve. But right now the price for it is too high.

No, ray-tracing is niche, expensive and not worthy as of today. It will always be niche because there is no manufacturing method to produce that many transistors to make it work.

Also, ray-tracing done by nvidia is a gimmick. They remove the traditional lighting that is as good or even better and push through your throat something that you have never asked for.

THU31Do they get more complicated? I feel like rasterization possibilities have been maxed out. I have not seen any more progress in graphics without ray tracing for a few years now.
If you are too focused on the game to notice RT, you will not notice ultra settings or native 4K resolution either. Maybe even more so.

4K120 is a total niche, but that is probably the only case where you need a lot more performance. My undervolted 3080 does 4K60 is almost every game without RT. Sometimes I have to drop some ridiculous setting to get it locked at 60, because I use Vsync with BFI. With VRR, I could have everything maxed out.

Ray tracing is the future and it will continue to evolve. But right now the price for it is too high.

its global illumination is the future. Always has been. just even current hardware . its not ready for gaming.
a render of 3 donuts (metal) rotating and bouncing light off them and the metal table they're on.
takes the gpu using 100 power(3090ti) 24 hours to render.
btw that 30 secs.(i.e 1 full rotation of donuts)

GeForce RTX 4090 Performance Figures and New Features Detailed by NVIDIA

ModEl4GeForce RTX 4090 Performance Figures and New Features Detailed by NVIDIA

I need to get into the stupid graph making business for companies....I could make a killing!

ModEl4GeForce RTX 4090 Performance Figures and New Features Detailed by NVIDIA

What the F is this? 90 < 80 < 81 < 117 fps? Did nvidia go full retard? :kookoo:

ARFNo, ray-tracing is niche, expensive and not worthy as of today. It will always be niche because there is no manufacturing method to produce that many transistors to make it work.

Also, ray-tracing done by nvidia is a gimmick. They remove the traditional lighting that is as good or even better and push through your throat something that you have never asked for.

I'm not sure. I finished Control with my 2070 at 1080p with full RT. Also, Cyberpunk 2077 at 1080p, full RT and quality DLSS. I know, I know... 40-50 fps doesn't cut it for youngsters these days. *sigh* There's those of us who grew up on low fps DOS and early Windows games and still remember the immense amount of fun that we had. For those of us, RT actually is an option. ;)

THU31This might be a bit of a generalization.

It all depends on whether you are a private person or a business, and if you live in a house or in an apartment building.

Small businesses like bakeries are getting insane increases to the cost of electricity - even 4 to 5 times. Bread is getting more and more expensive every month. Regular people will be affected too, but not as much. Heating is a much bigger problem, some people who live in houses will be freezing.

Worth noting that the average income in Poland is about 3 times lower than in western Europe. And average income is completely not representative of the majority. I have never even been close to average income.

I pay about 50 EUR for a month of electricity, which is a lot for me, but I do use a lot of electronic equipment.

50EUR that is a lot in Polish standard. None of my friends there pay that much per month but it may be about the consumption you have which is pretty high. Considering what my friends are reporting, they have half of what you pay for 2 months. 160PLN per month in Warsaw and this is an apartment. Maybe your 50EUR is for a house? Maybe it is about the how much you consume. I don't think it is a generalization when you compare how much you pay for electricity in one country to another. House hold to house hold.

Obviously I don't speak of business since I don't own one and the previous conversation was about house hold so not sure why business is mentioned here.

With the income sure but you have to consider also, everything is 3 times cheaper. I been to Poland several time and have lived there for a long time before moving to Norway. I'm going to Poland for a trip tomorrow. I will take a look how the Convid and war has affected everything. Since we are passing through Germany, I shall investigate the electricity prices more since I will be seeing some people there as well. I'm also curious how much petrol and diesel cost. I will have a chance to look at that as well.

gffermariEven from Turing era, we have exceeded the need for more raster performance.
I personally don't care about raster performance at all.
I want numbers where it counts and that's in RT.

apparently it counts for you since 90% of gamers don't care a lot and majority of games still use raster.
Just because a company is pushing for RT it does not mean it has become a mainstream. Especially with kinda pathetic performance.

THU31I pay about 50 EUR for a month of electricity, which is a lot for me, but I do use a lot of electronic equipment.

If I may ask, do you have fixed price plan or spot price?
@ratirt in that case, remember that if they have a fixed plan from pre-"energy" issue, then they won't be much affected vs spot price or new plan.

ratirtapparently it counts for you since 90% of gamers don't care a lot and majority of games still use raster.
Just because a company is pushing for RT it does not mean it has become a mainstream. Especially with kinda pathetic performance.

fully agree. RT isn't there yet, most people I play with ether don't care about it or play games with it.
Personally played 3-4 games with it (might be more, like doom that added it post-release), and, yes, it looks better, but not noticeable enough for me to keep it on with that perf-loss. Which will be even higher, as I want to upgrade to 4k-wide (from 1440p@144) and still keep a 100fps when possible.
And even new games still doesn't necessarily have RT (on release)

big_glassesfully agree. RT isn't there yet, most people I play with ether don't care about it or play games with it.
Personally played 3-4 games with it (might be more, like doom that added it post-release), and, yes, it looks better, but not noticeable enough for me to keep it on with that perf-loss. Which will be even higher, as I want to upgrade to 4k-wide (from 1440p@144) and still keep a 100fps when possible.
And even new games still doesn't necessarily have RT (on release)

RT is cool and I'm sure at some point it will be the thing for gaming but for now it is merely a thing. The performance hit it generates is enormous. RT is being used as reason for selling products and NV now announced the shitty 4000 series with DLSS3 which can only work with new cards and these cost a lot. Advertised from 2000 series to be useed now as a must have to lure in more people giving cash for something that still lacks. It would seem these DLSS now are being manufactured just to cash in on new cards and RT promises to gullible people.

big_glassesIf I may ask, do you have fixed price plan or spot price?
@ratirt in that case, remember that if they have a fixed plan from pre-"energy" issue, then they won't be much affected vs spot price or new plan.

True but ripping off the nation for whatever reason giving covid and war as an excuse to charge more is really bad in my eyes. If we have a crisis governing entities should have a plan to act to relief and protect people from the trouble not all the way around. It is the government that has all the tools to cut prices not people.

ModEl4GeForce RTX 4090 Performance Figures and New Features Detailed by NVIDIA

If Portal runs at 117 FPS with 6x DLSS performance increase, does that mean it runs at 19.5 FPS without DLSS, on a 4090? Sounds pretty bad. :D

ratirtWith the income sure but you have to consider also, everything is 3 times cheaper.

Basic living costs, yes. But not electronics, video games, streaming services and other things like that.

I will give you a simple example of what I mean. BLC means bills and food, stuff you absolutely need.
Poland - 1250 EUR average income - 750 EUR basic living costs (60%) - 500 EUR left
Germany - 4000 EUR average income - 2400 EUR basic living costs (60%) - 1600 EUR left

Who has an easier time buying a graphics card that costs 1000 EUR or more (same price in both countries)? ;)
New video games cost about 70 EUR over here, which is completely insane.

big_glassesIf I may ask, do you have fixed price plan or spot price?

No idea. I live in an apartment, so the housing association handles all that stuff, I just pay the bills. I expect they negotiate the contracts once in a while.

THU31If Portal runs at 117 FPS with 6x DLSS performance increase, does that mean it runs at 19.5 FPS without DLSS, on a 4090? Sounds pretty bad. :D

Or maybe it runs at 117 fps without DLSS, and 702 fps with it? :D