Friday, September 23rd 2022

NVIDIA AD103 and AD104 Chips Powering RTX 4080 Series Detailed

Here's our first look at the "AD103" and "AD104" chips powering the GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB and RTX 4080 12 GB, respectively, thanks to Ryan Smith from Anandtech. These are the second- and third-largest implementations of the GeForce "Ada" graphics architecture, with the "AD102" powering the RTX 4090 being the largest. Both chips are built on the same TSMC 4N (4 nm EUV) silicon fabrication process as the AD102, but are significantly distant from it in specifications. For example, the AD102 has a staggering 80 percent more number-crunching machinery than the AD103, and a 50 percent wider memory interface. The sheer numbers at play here, enable NVIDIA to carve out dozens of SKUs based on the three chips alone, before we're shown the mid-range "AD106" in the future.

The AD103 die measures 378.6 mm², significantly smaller than the 608 mm² of the AD102, and it reflects in a much lower transistor count of 45.9 billion. The chip physically features 80 streaming multiprocessors (SM), which work out to 10,240 CUDA cores, 320 Tensor cores, 80 RT cores, and 320 TMUs. The chip is endowed with a healthy ROP count of 112, and has a 256-bit wide GDDR6X memory interface. The AD104 is smaller still, with a die-size of 294.5 mm², a transistor count of 35.8 billion, 60 SM, 7,680 CUDA cores, 240 Tensor cores, 60 RT cores, 240 TMUs, and 80 ROPs. Ryan Smith says that the RTX 4080 12 GB maxes out the AD104, which means its memory interface is physically just 192-bit wide.
Sources: Ryan Smith (Twitter), VideoCardz
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152 Comments on NVIDIA AD103 and AD104 Chips Powering RTX 4080 Series Detailed

#77
ModEl4
AnotherReaderIt is closest to TSMC's 10 nm; TSMC's 12 nm is 16 nm with different standard cells.
It's definitely closest to N10 (N10 has zero frequency benefit vs N16 but double the logic density)
Samsung's 8LPP has similar frequency potential as N10 but even better density (around +17%)
16nm GP104 has 7.2b transistors at 314mm² while GA104 has 17.4b transistors at 392mm² (1.9X more dense not in logic only but on overall design)

---------------------------------

New info regarding Ada Lovelace features

"DLSS 3 combines Super Resolution, Frame Generation, and NVIDIA Reflex!"
Posted on Reply
#78
ARF
JHH is not ok. Someone should tell him that he completely lost his mind with this ridiculous new pricing scheme.
This is something that had never been seen before.

Compare AL to AMP:

chip | die size | pricing
AD102 608mm^2 1600
AD103 379mm^2 1200
AD104 295mm^2 900

GA102 628mm^2 2000
GA102 628mm^2 1500
GA102 628mm^2 1200
GA102 628mm^2 700
GA104 392mm^2 600
GA104 392mm^2 500
GA104 392mm^2 400
GA106 276mm^2 330
GA106 276mm^2 250
GA107 200mm^2 200

JHH literally priced something that should cost around 350 max 2.6 times higher up to 900!!
Posted on Reply
#79
jaszy
Vayra86Wuuuut? GTX 1080 begs to differ... or GTX 980... or the 680, or...

The new kid on the block here is the fact there is a 103-SKU in between the 102 and 104. And even the 102 is a spin off from Titan's 110.

The fact is we're looking at the exact opposite situation: they can't place a 104 that high in the stack anymore. They need TWO bigger SKUs to cater to their top end of the stack, and 104 is upper midrange but at best - it no longer 'stands in as early high end'. It used to only get succeeded by a 102 later in gen, now they have to place it at the front of the gen to make even a tiny bit of impact compared to the last. ADA's current positioning is the best example: they're not even removing the 3xxx cards below it; we're looking at ONLY 102 dies from gen to gen populating half their new stack for a while. These are all signs Nvidia's running into new territory wrt their wiggle room: we're paying their wiggle room now on the Geforce stack; the 102/103 SKUs are simply new tiers also in terms of price, and they need every single piece of it to survive against the competition.

Back in the HD-days, they could make do with a 104 and then destroy AMD with a 102 either cut down or full later on. Which they have been doing up until they started pushing RT. Ever since, the changes happened, prices soared and VRAM magically went poof. The price of RT... again... ;) We still laughing about this fantastic tech?
Agree. Don't forget EE/cooler design is also WAY more expensive now too. Nvidia was screwing people for years, People are clearly memory holed or just new to the scene.

Like I said in previous post, 4080 12GB IS overpriced, but its only like $200 give or take from some of the older x80 G104 cards with full enabled dies (Adjusted inflation).

The only problem I can see from here is how the future 4070/4060 will be priced. Those won't scale as linearly with inflation metrics... Not that the 4080 12GB does, but theres compensation on card "upgrades" and EE requirements at least.

My assumption? RTX30 die cost/Samsung 8 was insanely cheap. Nvidia priced and positioned it to be a saving grace to how horrible RTX20 was for general rasterization improvement from Pascal.

Turing had HUGE dies and Nvidia ate so much well deserved crap because RTX/DLSS was essentially vaporware. Generational gains were also weak relative to 10/9 series. Of course most logical people skipped it.
Posted on Reply
#80
Selaya
cvaldesThe x90 cards are really Titans in all but name. Whether they are called Titan or 4090 is a marketing decision that now has a habit of changing without notice.

It's not wise to compare NVIDIA's graphics card generations by comparing model numbers since they aren't consistent with what each model number represents. It's really just a numerical slot relative to a given card's placement within that generation's product stack.

Clearly NVIDIA's current strategy is to use binning to maximize gross margin. They're not going to sell Joe Gamer an $800 graphics card with a GPU that can be overclocked +30%. Those days are over. They're going to keep those binned chips, relabel them, and sell them at a higher price like $1200.
the biggest problem i see here is that, previously the x80ti was basically a x90/titan w/ half the memory (same/very similar core count/config); this'd be the first time where we wouldn't have this option - we either swallow it and buy the x90 or stick w/ a gpu half as powerful, basically.
and the 4080's not cheap either
Posted on Reply
#81
Prima.Vera
Serious question.
Why didn't nGreedia used the proper naming convention for their GPUs, such as:
AD102 = RTX 4080 (NOT RTX 4090)
AD103 = RTX 4070 (NOT RTX 4080 16 GB)
AD104 = RTX 4060 (NOT RTX 4080 12 GB)

To be honest those could also be the Ti variants, comparing to previous iterations, or just some bump up specs.
Their naming convention is totally retarded and BS tbh.
Posted on Reply
#82
Fluffmeister
Because they are greedy? You lot get upset every single friggin launch.

TIME TO ACCEPT THEY ARE GREEDY, buy AMD, as far as multi-billion corps that just want your cash go, they are your only choice.

Sad times, but hey ho.
Posted on Reply
#83
cvaldes
Selayathe biggest problem i see here is that, previously the x80ti was basically a x90/titan w/ half the memory (same/very similar core count/config); this'd be the first time where we wouldn't have this option - we either swallow it and buy the x90 or stick w/ a gpu half as powerful, basically.
and the 4080's not cheap either
We didn't have that option with the Ampere generation when it debuted.

Remember, both 3090 and 3080 10G were announced September 1, 2020. 3080 Ti was announced on May 31, 2021. For nine months, there was 3090 or 3080 10G and nothing in between. The 3080 12G didn't arrive until January of this year.

Will there be a 4080 Ti at some point? Probably. Looking at the numbers of cores (CUDA, RT, Tensor) and pricing in the three Ada Lovelace cards announced, it appears that NVIDIA can slot in offerings around these three (above, in between, below).

NVIDIA did not release the entire Ampere lineup at the same time. People will have more choices if they choose to be patient whether it be additional NVIDIA 40 series models or whatever AMD releases. And like NVIDIA, AMD did not release the entire RNDA2 lineup at the same time.
Posted on Reply
#84
Tek-Check
Unfortunately, Nvidia has disappointed in connectivity department with 4000 series cards. They do not offer DisplayPort 2.0 on cards that cost up to $1600. Completely silly and unacceptable.
They will be the last GPU to offer this port in...2024 on 5000 series, unless Nvidia consumers send them a clear message of disapproval and demand this upgrade on Ti cards.

Intel's A380, the lowest tier card, has DP 2.0 port at 40 Gbps.
Posted on Reply
#85
jaszy
FluffmeisterBecause they are greedy? You lot get upset every single friggin launch.

TIME TO ACCEPT THEY ARE GREEDY, buy AMD, as far as multi-billion corps that just want your cash go, they are your only choice.

Sad times, but hey ho.
Yes buy AMD.. They literally jacked the MSRP of both the 6700XT and 6600XT around $100 USD prior to launch due to mining demand. :laugh:

Today you can grab a 6700XT for $350 with promo code +rebate off Newegg... lol. Both are scum.
Posted on Reply
#86
Selaya
cvaldesWe didn't have that option with the Ampere generation when it debuted.

Remember, both 3090 and 3080 10G were announced September 1, 2020. 3080 Ti was announced on May 31, 2021. For nine months, there was 3090 or 3080 10G and nothing in between. The 3080 12G didn't arrive until January of this year.

Will there be a 4080 Ti at some point? Probably. Looking at the numbers of cores (CUDA, RT, Tensor) and pricing in the three Ada Lovelace cards announced, it appears that NVIDIA can slot in offerings around these three (above, in between, below).

NVIDIA did not release the entire Ampere lineup at the same time. People will have more choices if they choose to be patient whether it be additional NVIDIA 40 series models or whatever AMD releases. And like NVIDIA, AMD did not release the entire RNDA2 lineup at the same time.
i'll count the 3080-10gb as just that, for all intents and purposes (neither 1080ti nor 2080ti had the full memory bus enabled anyways) since it's close enough anyways. the different 12gb flavors of the 3080 were just nv's attempt to milk a market that bought any- and everything they release.

but my point is: the 3080 had a core count and thus performance similar to the 3090, as the 2080ti & the titan rtx, et cetera.
Posted on Reply
#87
cvaldes
Selayai'll count the 3080-10gb as just that, for all intents and purposes (neither 1080ti nor 2080ti had the full memory bus enabled anyways) since it's close enough anyways. the different 12gb flavors of the 3080 were just nv's attempt to milk a market that bought any- and everything they release.

but my point is: the 3080 had a core count and thus performance similar to the 3090, as the 2080ti & the titan rtx, et cetera.
I own the 3080 Ti. I bought it because it's very near to the 3090 in all specs apart from VRAM. I didn't want to pay the premium for the extra 12GB of graphics memory.

In any case, it isn't worth comparing different generations of NVIDIA cards strictly by model number since they change how they think about them. It's really just a way to rank the various models within the product stack of a given generation.

Especially with Ada Lovelace generation, NVIDIA was motivated to change the numbering system yet again to make sure the Ada 4080 has performance above the Ampere 30 Series cards that they will continue selling alongside the new releases in order to draw down channel inventory.
Posted on Reply
#88
Tomorrow
Tek-CheckUnfortunately, Nvidia has disappointed in connectivity department with 4000 series cards. They do not offer DisplayPort 2.0 on cards that cost up to $1600. Completely silly and unacceptable.
They will be the last GPU to offer this port in...2024 on 5000 series, unless Nvidia consumers send them a clear message of disapproval and demand this upgrade on Ti cards.

Intel's A380, the lowest tier card, has DP 2.0 port at 40 Gbps.
Well actually Intel has it's own problems with HDMI 2.1 on their cards. So i seems everyone has their own shortcomings. Perhaps AMD's 7000 series will offer full support for both HDMI 2.1 and DP 2.0.
Posted on Reply
#89
MentalAcetylide
AnarchoPrimitivNo competition? What do you mean by that? RDNA2 matched or beat 30 series in raster, FSR 2.0 has great reviews, and most certainly RDNA3 will compete, and because AMD's chiplet approach should be cheaper to manufacture, RDNA3 should offer better performance per dollar....but despite all of that, everyone will buy Nvidia and reward their behavior and perpetuate Nvidia's constant price increases in perpetuity.

Let's be honest everyone, AMD could release a GPU that matched Nvidia in every way including raytracing, and have FSR equal to DLSS in every way and charge less than Nvidia for it, and everyone would STILL buy Nvidia (which only proves consumer choices are quite irrational and are NOT decided by simply comparing specs, as the existence of fanboys should testify to...)...and as long as that's true, the GPU market will ALWAYS be hostile to consumers. The ONLY way things are going to improve for consumers is if AMD starts capturing marketshare and Nvidia is punished by consumers... but based on historical precedent, I have no hope for that...

And I don't believe Intel's presence would have improved the situation much, not as much as a wholly new company in the GPU space would have, because Intel would have leveraged success in the GPU market (which would have probably been carved away from AMD's limited marketshare instead of Nvidia's and would have resulted in Nvidia's marketshare remaining at 80% and AMD's 20% being divided between AMD and Intel) to further marginalize AMD in the x86 space (for example, by using influence with OEMs to have an Intel CPU matched with an Intel GPU and further diminish AMDs position among OEMs, which is how Intel devastated AMD in the 2000s BTW), and it would have been trading a marginally better GPU market for a much worse CPU market, imo. Although it'd never happen, what would be really improve the market would be if Nvidia got broken up like AT&T did in the 80s...
So what's your point? If AMD was in NVidia's place, they would be pulling the same horseshit. Yes, I'll still buy NVidia's graphics cards because we can't iray render with an AMD GPU. Of course, if I was only gaming, then it would be a different story.
Posted on Reply
#91
Tek-Check
TomorrowWell actually Intel has it's own problems with HDMI 2.1 on their cards. So i seems everyone has their own shortcomings. Perhaps AMD's 7000 series will offer full support for both HDMI 2.1 and DP 2.0.
I am not aware of HDMI 2.1 issues of Arc. Could you, please, elaborate a bit and share the problems identified? Much appreciated.
Posted on Reply
#92
Tomorrow
Tek-CheckI am not aware of HDMI 2.1 issues of Arc. Could you, please, elaborate a bit and share the problems identified? Much appreciated.
www.pcgamer.com/intel-arc-gpus-dont-natively-support-hdmi-21/

So if i read this correct it affects the 3 series that AIB's need to have an extra conversion chip included. The 5 and 7 series per Ryan Shrout natively include this and thus should be 2.1 compliant. Just seems like an odd omission even on budget cards. HDMI 2.1 is not exactly new and AMD's 6400 card even supports it.
Posted on Reply
#93
beedoo
Fine products at very fair prices... just buy them!
Posted on Reply
#94
regs
ARFSo, the fin width is 6 nm on a TSMC 10FF process?
Fin top point doesn't mean anything. Look density and gate pitch. Density is a little higher than TSMC 10FF, but falls into same generations.
And Samsung 8N is a part of 10N series. It's 10N+++ speaking plain former Intel language.
Posted on Reply
#95
Tek-Check
Tomorrowwww.pcgamer.com/intel-arc-gpus-dont-natively-support-hdmi-21/

So if i read this correct it affects the 3 series that AIB's need to have an extra conversion chip included. The 5 and 7 series per Ryan Shrout natively include this and thus should be 2.1 compliant. Just seems like an odd omission even on budget cards. HDMI 2.1 is not exactly new and AMD's 6400 card even supports it.
Thank you for this. I really appreciate it.
Wow! I cannot believe that Intel waited for so long to tell us that only A750 and A770 Limited Edition cards have PCON converter chip on PCB for HDMI 2.1 FRL signal (unclear if 24Gbps?, 32 Gbps?, 40 Gbps? or 48 Gbps?), and all other cards are HDMI 2.0 with 18 Gbps speed.

This is what happens when HDMI Administrator publishes their decision to rebrand 2.0=2.1. And companies sell us a total mess...
Posted on Reply
#96
regs
AnarchoPrimitivNo competition? What do you mean by that? RDNA2 matched or beat 30 series in raster, FSR 2.0 has great reviews, and most certainly RDNA3 will compete, and because AMD's chiplet approach should be cheaper to manufacture, RDNA3 should offer better performance per dollar....but despite all of that, everyone will buy Nvidia and reward their behavior and perpetuate Nvidia's constant price increases in perpetuity.
AD103 and AD104 are not 30 series. They are RTX 40 series. RDNA3 is not even here. So when released we will see. And Nvidia will see. May be they will rename them back to 4070 and 4060. May be. At least RDNA3 might offer quite a leap in midrange - double ALU and higher clocks.
AnarchoPrimitivLet's be honest everyone, AMD could release a GPU that matched Nvidia in every way including raytracing, and have FSR equal to DLSS in every way and charge less than Nvidia for it, and everyone would STILL buy Nvidia (which only proves consumer choices are quite irrational and are NOT decided by simply comparing specs, as the existence of fanboys should testify to...)...and as long as that's true, the GPU market will ALWAYS be hostile to consumers. The ONLY way things are going to improve for consumers is if AMD starts capturing marketshare and Nvidia is punished by consumers... but based on historical precedent, I have no hope for that...
FSR 2.0 is a huge step over FSR 1.0, which was absolutely useless, but still DLSS is quite ahead, not only in picture quality, but also in performance, thank to dedicated blocks.
Tek-CheckThank you for this. I really appreciate it.
Wow! I cannot believe that Intel waited for so long to tell us that only A750 and A770 Limited Edition cards have PCON converter chip on PCB for HDMI 2.1 FRL signal (unclear if 24Gbps?, 32 Gbps?, 40 Gbps? or 48 Gbps?), and all other cards are HDMI 2.0 with 18 Gbps speed.

This is what happens when HDMI Administrator publishes their decision to rebrand 2.0=2.1. And companies sell us a total mess...
Why would anyone want to use HDMI 2.1, when there is DisplayPort UHBR 20, which is, according to rumors, will be supported by Arc?
Posted on Reply
#97
Tek-Check
regsWhy would anyone want to use HDMI 2.1, when there is DisplayPort UHBR 20, which is, according to rumors, will be supported by Arc?
It's UHBR10 port at 40 Gbps, which is still being under certification process by VESA. Have a look at A380 spec on Intel's website.
Anyone can use either port and match it with whatever monitor or TV port they have at home.
Why not use HDMI 2.1 if someone has 4K/120 OLED TV? None of TVs has DisplayPort.
HDMI 2.1 port is currently superior in terms of bandwidth until DP 2.0 ports start working finally and become more mainstream.

Nvidia customers will unfortunately not enjoy this pleasure until 2024 and 5000 series, as the company has disappointed big time with omission of DP 2.0 on cards that cost up to $1600. Shambles. So much for promoting innovative connectivity technologies.
Posted on Reply
#98
nguyen
Man people don't know what TSMC is charging way more dough than Samsung, Samsung 8N cost ~4k usd while TSMC 5nm cost ~17k usd per wafer according to 2020 data

AD104 chip could cost 2x as much as GA102 chip that are on 3090Ti/3090/3080Ti/3080

That means Ampere will have the cost benefit for now while ADA will have performance and efficiency benefit.
Posted on Reply
#99
regs
Tek-CheckIt's UHBR10 port at 40 Gbps, which is still being under certification process by VESA. Have a look at A380 spec on Intel's website.
A380 is ACM-G11 chip. Rest will be ACM-G10. Specs aren't fully announced yet.
Tek-CheckWhy not use HDMI 2.1 if someone has 4K/120 OLED TV?
It's paid, it's proprietary and it's wporse in any way. Why paying for that? Industry should completely abolish HDMI.
Posted on Reply
#100
ARF
nguyenMan people don't know what TSMC is charging way more dough than Samsung, Samsung 8N cost ~4k usd while TSMC 5nm cost ~17k usd per wafer according to 2020 data

AD104 chip could cost 2x as much as GA102 chip that are on 3090Ti/3090/3080Ti/3080

That means Ampere will have the cost benefit for now while ADA will have performance and efficiency benefit.
This means that nvidia should have carefully analysed the situation and completely stopped the project towards TSMC N4.
Instead, they could have made more significant IPC/architectural improvements and backported AL to Samsung N8, so that the lineup would look something like this:

chip | die size | pricing
GAL104-2 750mm^2 1200
GAL104-2
750mm^2 1000
GAL104-2
750mm^2 800
GAL106-2
520mm^2 660
GAL106-2
520mm^2 500
GAL107-2 400mm^2 400
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