Vayra86Yeah you said that, and then you're dragging all sorts of silly arguments across the table to reinforce it, when I show you that midrange cards can't even max out 1080p/60 proper in recent games. If you're gaming longer than today you know as well as I do that 1440p performance will nosedive as new titles come out.

You didnt show me much, darktide apparently is a heavily cpu bottlenecked game , cause there is no way all those cards are so close together. In the most recent tpup review a 3070 at 1440p max scored an average of 120fps. The 3060ti should be 10% behind, but let's call it 100 fps. Thats without using dlss or fsr. Whats wrong with that kind of performance om a midrange card?

The only market that's shafted is the low end one where cards at 120 to 250 euros used to play games very decently.

fevgatosThe only market that's shafted is the low end one where cards at 120 to 250 euros used to play games very decently.

The shafting is about to get a whole lot shaftier. The proposed 4060 Ti is really an Entry Level 4050 Ti according to the specs and it will probably be around $550. When the 4050 rolls out it will be the low end of Entry Level Ada and my guess is it will be around $400.

Keep buying those high end and upper midrange Adas. Huang is laughing all the way to the bank with his billions of dollars in profits.

Revenue was up over 61% for 2022 over 2021.

64KThe shafting is about to get a whole lot shaftier. The proposed 4060 Ti is really a 4050 Ti according to the specs and it will probably be around $550. When the 4050 rolls out it will be the low end of Entry Level Ada and my guess is it will be around $400.

Keep buying those high end and upper midrange Adas. Huang is laughing all the way to the bank with his tens of billions of dollars in profits.

Frankly I don't care about your classifications. What does 4060ti is really a 4050 even mean? I dont care about die sizes and specs.

If the 4070ti is "really" a 4060, then you are basically telling me a 4060 beats the snot out of amds best gpu in RT? Well no wonder huang is charging us that much, when his low end cards are competing with amds top range halo products, lol.

64KIt is disturbing watching the "just accept it and buy the GPU anyway no matter how much Nvidia is ripping gamers off mentality" concerning Nvidia's GPUs. Don't you realize that once Nvidia gets away with this it becomes precedent just like the GTX 680 almost 11 years ago. They have never retreated from their over-pricing schemes since then. It only continues to get worse and now with Ada it is utterly ridiculous.

What's next with the RTX 50 series? Higher prices still most likely.

Some people have asked me why I care. I care because I see PC gaming as a hobby and I always have. I see PC gamers as fellow hobbyists and I don't like seeing my fellow hobbyists being abused and ripped off by Nvidia. $550, if not more, for a lower end Ada RTX 4060 Ti which is really an entry level RTX 4050 Ti is ridiculous. Don't be silent and just take it like is being advised by a vocal minority here. Fight back.

I'm 100% with you.
And as I see it, the only effective method to 'fight back' is to sit on your GPU for as long as you can.
Nothing else will be even remotely as efficient.

And note, this is not for NV GPU only, it's for AMD, Intel and so on.
They all deserve the same treatment.

fevgatosYou didnt show me much, darktide apparently is a heavily cpu bottlenecked game , cause there is no way all those cards are so close together. In the most recent tpup review a 3070 at 1440p max scored an average of 120fps. The 3060ti should be 10% behind, but let's call it 100 fps. Thats without using dlss or fsr. Whats wrong with that kind of performance om a midrange card?

The only market that's shafted is the low end one where cards at 120 to 250 euros used to play games very decently.

Ah, now the game is cpu bottlenecked instead of shitty optimized. But thats irrelevant for midrange cards. Thats purely about GPU performance. Again moving goalposts/ grasping at straws are we?

The 3070 and 3060ti came out two years ago and are already getting long in the tooth for being supposed 1440p cards.

Vayra86Ah, now the game is cpu bottlenecked instead of shitty optimized. But thats irrelevant for midrange cards. Thats purely about GPU performance. Again moving goalposts/ grasping at straws are we?

The 3070 and 3060ti came out two years ago and are already getting long in the tooth for being supposed 1440p cards.

So you are saying the game isn't cpu bottlenecked? Im sorry but im confused. From the link you posted obviously something is wrong, and yes being extremely cpu bottlenecked means it's shitty optimized.

fevgatosSo you are saying the game isn't cpu bottlenecked? Im sorry but im confused. From the link you posted obviously something is wrong, and yes being extremely cpu bottlenecked means it's shitty optimized.

Its only cpu bottlenecked at way beyond midrange performance (beyond 3080-ish). Stick to the subject ;) There is after all, always a bottleneck. But you dont have it using a 3060ti.. thats just raster perf not cutting it like you say it does especially not at 1440p.

Vayra86Its only cpu bottlenecked at way beyond midrange performance (beyond 3080-ish). Stick to the subject ;) There is after all, always a bottleneck. But you dont have it using a 3060ti.. thats just raster perf not cutting it like you say it does especially not at 1440p.

Going by this graph

www.dsogaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Warhammer-40000-Darktide-GPU-Benchmarks-2.png

The 2080ti hits 60 fps average at native 1440p. The 3060ti isn't that far off the 2080ti in performance, at least according to the tpup review, the difference is 10%. So a 3060ti with DLSS Q can absolutely get great performance even in this game at MAX settings. But even if it doesn't, I don't really know what point you are trying to make exactly? That there are games that run like dogshit? Sure, plenty, already gave you the example of ark. So?

Should be in raster 1-3% behind in 4K vs 3070 and 3-1% better at QHD and $499 SRP (terrible value). I don't think AMD will dare to price the full N32 (16GB) at more than $649 (6800XT SRP) and the cut-down version should be $579 if it has 16GB or $549 if it has 12GB (with only half the RBs vs 7900XTX, 192bit bus should be enough depending frequencies) So i would advise everyone to wait a little bit and buy instead the cut-down N32 based model that will be much faster in raster. (let's hope it doesn't have the power consumption characteristics of N31 at media playback and multiple monitor usage and requires only one 8pin (195-180W TDP range))

ModEl4Should be in raster 1-3% behind in 4K vs 3070 and 3-1% better at QHD and $499 SRP (terrible value)

Agreed.
But if you add a Ti suffix and shave off 50$, then they'll have my attention (also considering the 160W).

fevgatosGoing by this graph

www.dsogaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Warhammer-40000-Darktide-GPU-Benchmarks-2.png

The 2080ti hits 60 fps average at native 1440p. The 3060ti isn't that far off the 2080ti in performance, at least according to the tpup review, the difference is 10%. So a 3060ti with DLSS Q can absolutely get great performance even in this game at MAX settings. But even if it doesn't, I don't really know what point you are trying to make exactly? That there are games that run like dogshit? Sure, plenty, already gave you the example of ark. So?

So 350-400 eur worth of current day GPU is definitely not enough for great 1440p gaming today - and certainly not tomorrow. Obviously - its been the basis of this discussion, but apparently I need to repeat that every post.

60 fps avg minus 10% is 54 avg, and lows will be 40 or sub 40. Thats... pretty much the gist of what im saying a page long now. Im glad we reached consensus and you confirmed all those goalposts were moved for nothing ;)

TL DR; mid range gaming didnt improve at all. You get less gpu for your money throughout the stack since Turing. Midrange gaming was great about 5-6 years back, between Maxwell and Pascal.

Vayra86So 350-400 eur worth of current day GPU is definitely not enough for great 1440p gaming today - and certainly not tomorrow. Obviously - its been the basis of this discussion, but apparently I need to repeat that every post.

60 fps avg minus 10% is 54 avg, and lows will be 40 or sub 40. Thats... pretty much the gist of what im saying a page long now. Im glad we reached consensus and you confirmed all those goalposts were moved for nothing ;)

TL DR; mid range gaming didnt improve at all. You get less gpu for your money throughout the stack since Turing. Midrange gaming was great about 5-6 years back, between Maxwell and Pascal.

But DLSS Q will bring the 55 up to the 80s. So...what's wrong with that?

I mean your whole premise is fundamentally flawed. You mentioned Pascal. Do you consider the 1080ti good enough for 1080p at the time? Cause even back when it was released, there were games OLDER than the actual card that it would struggle to run at 1080p!!! So I guess - using your logic - the 1080ti wasnt good enough for 1080p even back in 2017. Does that make sense to you? Cause that's what you are saying about the 3060ti. "oh look, there is a game it can't run at steady 60 (with DLSS OFF) at max settings, therefore it's not a good 1440p card". Okay :D

las4070 Ti can overclock as well and you will still loose in pretty much all new games anyway + You use 100 watts more for lower performance and will have way less features than a RTX card.

So lets stop pretending.

You are simply not even close with a 6800XT;

Your're right, but 4070ti or 7900xt aren't upgrade worthy over a 6800xt.

So.....
RTX 2060 Super was faster than the gtx 1080 for much less $$
RTX 3060 Ti was tied with the rtx 2080 super for much less $$
RTX 4060 Ti maybe tied with rtx 3070 for the same price?

I swear this freaking gpu prices are upside down.
What's next? rtx 5060 ti tied with rtx 4060 ti for more money?
lol....

Smaller memory bus, plus the price will be sky high... Ughh... Hate it already.
NVIDIA believes DLSS 3 and frame generation will make up for it's cut downs to previous generations.
They may well be right, but this 4060Ti will be at least 500 bucks and here in EU lots more.
People like me who always buy budget to mid-range,
we're getting screwed over.
Here's hoping AMD remedies the situation!

I'd like to say that this card will be DOA but there are more than enough fools out there who will buy a card just because it comes in a green box no matter how bad of a deal it is.

Space Lynxwell my 6800 xt at $540 matches a 4070 ti in some games, beats it in others, and loses in a few. so... much like the 4070 ti this is already dead on arrival for 6800 xt owners. lol

I think that you're reading something wrong because I haven't seen a single game in which the RX 6800 XT matches the RTX 4070 Ti. It doesn't matter though because most people who bought an RX 6800 XT didn't do it with the idea that we'd be upgrading to the next generation (I know that I didn't). It will be years before the RX 6800 XT can't run games maxxed-out and eons before 16GB isn't enough VRAM for gaming. Video cards are stupidly fast at the moment because just remember what the previous generational uplift was. Hell, the RX 5700 XT, a card that was considered great just a few short years ago, is about on par with the "lowly" RX 6600.

At this point, upgrading every generation is just a waste of money because you'll just be paying infinitely more money for an infinitely smaller positive impact on your gaming experience. Truth be told, I'd probably be just fine today if I were still using my RX 5700 XT. If the vast majority of gamers are perfectly fine with GPUs as weak as the GTX 1650, then even the RX 580, a card that is over 30% faster, wouldn't be something that most gamers would feel the need to upgrade. In fact, most gamers would be upgrading TO the RX 580 if they needed to upgrade at all. That sounds really weird to say. :laugh:

lasnot worth touching unless you get a huge discount.

I'm sorry, are you referring to last-gen or current-gen because that description hilariously fits BOTH! :laugh:

lasPeople always act like you do when new gen cards come out and beats their old card, I know the feeling.

I don't know if that's what he's doing because the RX 6800 XT wasn't the fastest card of its generation to begin with. There were 4 or 5 cards in that gen that were already faster. It didn't bother me that my RX 6800 XT wasn't the fastest card because it was the best value high-end card by a landslide. Now I know that the bar was set so low as to be underground but the one thing that I was proud of was that I paid $500 less for my RX 6800 XT than was the going rate at the time. Having said that, I still paid $500 too much for it and I still swear at myself in the mirror over it. I agree with you that there's no reason to get annoyed that your card is slower than the new gen because it if wasn't, the new gen wouldn't exist. Anyone who has ever bought a video card before knows that while its viability will last for many years, it won't be on the top charts for more than three at the most.

las4070 Ti beats 6800XT in every way possible and it will beat it even more in 6-12 months due to optimizations and new games coming out. It even beats 6900XT, 3080 Ti and 3090 with ease, pretty much performs like a 3090 Ti at 1440p, so nah, 6800XT is not close at all...

Yeah, but it doesn't beat the RX 6800 XT in any meaningful way because a lot of its excess performance is more applicable to it remaining at the high-end than anything else. I personally won't see a slide in performance from my RX 6800 XT for many years because I tend to game at 1440p60Hz.

The 4070 Ti is bottlenecked in 4K by the low 192-bit memory bus. This one will be bottlenecked in 1440p. And 8 GB of VRAM will be a problem in future games with ray-tracing (DLSS does not reduce memory utilization significantly).

I doubt it will cost more than $500, though (MSRP, not real prices). There still has to be room for the 4070. But even $500 is a ridiculous price for a card with a microscopic die of 190 mm2, with laughable 8 GB of VRAM and a bus width cut in half.

THU31The 4070 Ti is bottlenecked in 4K by the low 192-bit memory bus. This one will be bottlenecked in 1440p. And 8 GB of VRAM will be a problem in future games with ray-tracing (DLSS does not reduce memory utilization significantly).

I doubt it will cost more than $500, though (MSRP, not real prices). There still has to be room for the 4070. But even $500 is a ridiculous price for a card with a microscopic die of 190 mm2, with laughable 8 GB of VRAM and a bus width cut in half.

The RTX 4070 Ti is geared towards 1440P and this card will be geared for 1080P.

N3M3515Your're right, but 4070ti or 7900xt aren't upgrade worthy over a 6800xt.

So.....
RTX 2060 Super was faster than the gtx 1080 for much less $$
RTX 3060 Ti was tied with the rtx 2080 super for much less $$
RTX 4060 Ti maybe tied with rtx 3070 for the same price?

I swear this freaking gpu prices are upside down.
What's next? rtx 5060 ti tied with rtx 4060 ti for more money?
lol....

Agreed ... not upgrade worthy but for someone doing a new build from scratch it's a solid choice imo.

www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=6800xt

shop.asus.com/us/90yv0ij1-m0aa00-tuf-rtx4070ti-12g-gaming.html
Asus TUF GAMING RTX 4070 Ti 12GB Video Card $799.99

THU31The 4070 Ti is bottlenecked in 4K by the low 192-bit memory bus. This one will be bottlenecked in 1440p. And 8 GB of VRAM will be a problem in future games with ray-tracing (DLSS does not reduce memory utilization significantly).

I doubt it will cost more than $500, though (MSRP, not real prices). There still has to be room for the 4070. But even $500 is a ridiculous price for a card with a microscopic die of 190 mm2, with laughable 8 GB of VRAM and a bus width cut in half.

Maybe, but 4070 Ti still beats 3090 at 4K.

If you use DLSS/FSR most higher end cards will do 4K just fine.
If not, 4080, 7900XTX and especially 4090 is the only good options, unless you don't have high demands for image quality and framerate.

Why_MeThe RTX 4070 Ti is geared towards 1440P and this card will be geared for 1080P.

$800 is not an appropriate price for 1440p, though, and $500 is definitely not an appropriate price for 1080p.

Everything in this generation is out of proportion. And yes, if you are upgrading from and old system, these cards are better than anything before, but it does not change the fact that performance per dollar improvement is almost non-existant. The manufacturing cost argument would only be valid if these GPUs had the same die sizes as the previous generation. But they do not, not even close.

Why_MeThe RTX 4070 Ti is geared towards 1440P and this card will be geared for 1080P.

Doubt. They'll market this as 1440p144 and just put "using DLSS (3)" disclaimer somewhere.

THU31$800 is not an appropriate price for 1440p, though, and $500 is definitely not an appropriate price for 1080p.

Everything in this generation is out of proportion. And yes, if you are upgrading from and old system, these cards are better than anything before, but it does not change the fact that performance per dollar improvement is almost non-existant. The manufacturing cost argument would only be valid if these GPUs had the same die sizes as the previous generation. But they do not, not even close.

MSRP for the RTX 3080 Ti 12GB is $1200 and that card is geared for 1440P for peeps wanting a decent amount of FPS with all the settings turned up.

shop.asus.com/us/90yv0ij1-m0aa00-tuf-rtx4070ti-12g-gaming.html
Asus TUF GAMING RTX 4070 Ti 12GB Video Card $799.99

Why_MeMSRP for the RTX 3080 Ti 12GB is $1200 and that card is geared for 1440P for peeps wanting a decent amount of FPS with all the settings turned up.

Right, a card 8% faster than a 3080, which had an MSRP of $700.

Not sure what you are defending here. Do you really believe the 40 series is appropriately priced in terms of performance per dollar, ignoring the naming of the cards?

THU31Right, a card 8% faster than a 3080, which had an MSRP of $700.

Not sure what you are defending here. Do you really believe the 40 series is appropriately priced in terms of performance per dollar, ignoring the naming of the cards?

I don't have a problem with the pricing but then again I don't game at 4K. $800 in 2023 for a 170 FPS average doesn't sound all that bad.

Why_MeI don't have a problem with the pricing but then again I don't game at 4K. $800 in 2023 for a 170 FPS average doesn't sound all that bad.

The problem with pricing is that if everyone keeps the same mindset as you, in a few years, x60 gpus will cost $800. And it would be seen as "normal"

N3M3515The problem with pricing is that if everyone keeps the same mindset as you, in a few years, x60 gpus will cost $800. And it would be seen as "normal"

RTX 2080 Ti 11GB MSRP: $1000
RTX 3080 Ti 12GB MSRP: $1200
RTX 4070 Ti 12GB MSRP: $800