Nice. If you can sell 'em, why not.

Dump your RTX GPU if you don't like it in protest. A lot of the stuff the west buys is still made in china, what are we going to do. Not selling GPU's to china is not going to stop them supporting whatever they like.

FoulOnWhiteDump your RTX GPU if you don't like it in protest. A lot of the stuff the west buys is still made in china, what are we going to do. Not selling GPU's to china is not going to stop them supporting whatever they like.

yeah and me not throwing a wrapper on the floor is not going to stop others from doing so, so why would I?
also scamming others is fine, others do so as well so who cares?

in general hurting others is something everyone does all the time, might as well join in.

evernessinceYou mean aside from the Chinese assisting Russia in Ukraine, further euthanizing minorities like the Uigher people, mass surveillance, and use of force to harass it's neighbors? (among other reasons)

But yes, I suppose Capitalism is the world's greatest religion nowadays. Let's not let morals get in the way of a quick buck.

We have our own evils. Before anyone talks morals in the West we have a lot to repent and revise, both for ourselves and for the world at large. If China ceased to trade with the West, surely we would be in a far worse position, it would do us well to remember that. If the product respects the restriction imposed by the Biden administration, there is nothing to discuss in this regard, if it still poses a problem, then it's up to government to further restrict that. Nvidia won't object.

evernessinceYou mean aside from the Chinese assisting Russia in Ukraine, further euthanizing minorities like the Uigher people, mass surveillance, and use of force to harass it's neighbors? (among other reasons)

But yes, I suppose Capitalism is the world's greatest religion nowadays. Let's not let morals get in the way of a quick buck.

H20 looks like the lobotomized version that we're allowing for export. That's fine. NVidia made a weaker Chinese model that's seemingly complying with what we want. H20 may be better than anything China can make domestically, but its still far weaker than what is available in our society at large.

If we need to curtail China even further, then we can move to do so in the future. We're not at war at them (yet) after all, and honestly China is still complying with things like the price caps on crude oil from Russia. So China doesn't "deserve" to be fully punished yet. I think China by-and-large just wants to see what they can get away with.

There's risks of China-US relations spiraling out of control, but things are steady for now.

And yes, cutting off the fingers of Filipino sailors is certainly a problem. I don't want to ignore China's recent aggression this year. (The Uigher / surveillance / etc. etc. is mostly old-news and expected behavior at this point). But as you also noted: China is known to harass its neighbors like this, so maybe even this recent event is still old news in the great scheme of Chinese behavior.

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We've used a lot of our "stick" in recent years vs China as they've escalated tensions. But I don't think China is quite escalating as much as they were a year or two ago anymore. If their behavior improves, we need to leave some room for the "carrot", so to speak... to reward them if they ever calm the heck down.

Dr. DroWe have our own evils. Before anyone talks morals in the West we have a lot to repent and revise, both for ourselves and for the world at large. If China ceased to trade with the West, surely we would be in a far worse position, it would do us well to remember that. If the product respects the restriction imposed by the Biden administration, there is nothing to discuss in this regard, if it still poses a problem, then it's up to government to further restrict that. Nvidia won't object.

China (like much of Asia: Japan and South Korea) faces a declining population and a deflationary spiral.

China can only grow its economy by selling product to the USA or Europe. (I guess Belt and Road initiative is trying to build Africa up to the point where China can sell stuff to Afria but... that's far costlier than just sending products to USA/Europe).

If USA cuts off trade with China, yes we face inflation as a shortage of goods causes prices to go up... but guess what? Politically speaking that will embolden our manufacturing sector and be seen as a political win as "Made in USA" grows stronger. Higher prices suck but its politically feasible should USA manufacturing improve.

If China loses access to US Markets, their population decline + loss of customers will lead to a deflationary spiral. They actually need us more than we need them. Especially when you consider how Chinese markets have been wrecked by the Evergrande collapse and other company-debt issues.

US Population continues to grow, thanks to our immigrants and "not as bad" birth rates. (We will have an issue in a few decades if we cut off immigrants and keep our poor Birth Rates, but we're doing better than most other countries actually). Since we still have a growing population demanding more goods, we control the demand-side of the market quite severely.

There's two sides to the economic coin. For all the inflation faces we face (in part due to all of these new trade restrictions), China is facing an opposite deflation issue... and I argue China's deflation issue is far worse than USA's inflation issue.

Dr. DroWe have our own evils. Before anyone talks morals in the West we have a lot to repent and revise, both for ourselves and for the world at large. If China ceased to trade with the West, surely we would be in a far worse position, it would do us well to remember that. If the product respects the restriction imposed by the Biden administration, there is nothing to discuss in this regard, if it still poses a problem, then it's up to government to further restrict that. Nvidia won't object.

Everyone and thing has their "own evils", but that in and of itself is never reason to withhold criticism and demanding that somebody does withhold their criticism until they've passed some sort of "purity test" is approaching an ad hominem.

AnarchoPrimitivEveryone and thing has their "own evils", but that in and of itself is never reason to withhold criticism and demanding that somebody does withhold their criticism until they've passed some sort of "purity test" is approaching an ad hominem.

I hold no "holiar art thou" perspective. Lets just keep things simple. What's good for USA vs what's good for China? (Or UK / Europe or any other country of participants here)

In most cases, cooperation is the best move forward. But the belligerent actions of China vs various Asian partners (Japan, Korea, Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan) suggests that cooperation is not the right move right now.

And btw: Vietnam makes great Tee-shirts out of US Cotton. Its a beneficial trade relationship (USA sells cotton to Vietnam. Vietnam makes shirts. Vietnam sells shirts back to USA). We can do a lot of manufacturing without China, and these other countries are WAY friendlier towards us. Would I prefer those Tee-shirts to be made in USA? Maybe, if we can figure out good machines / tech inventions and do things the American way. But I'll accept Vietnamese as a Trade Partner and reward them over China any day of the week, especially with today's weirdly belligerent Chinese foreign policy.

I think people in this topic are ignoring just how advanced other countries' manufacturing has become. We don't need to rely upon China's manufacturing base for all of our goods. Yes, USA's manufacturing is feebler than most expect, but we can make up for it with trade partners elsewhere in the world.

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EDIT: And Europe has similar issues as USA. Maybe a bit less electricity / fuel but otherwise a similar set of strengths. Europe has good and healthy consumers, something China sorely wants access too. I think Europe also has more leeway in international relations vs China than they might think. Europe has a "Made in Europe" political movement as well, huge demand for various goods and imports and strong expected demand over the next 30 years due to reasonable population dynamics.

evernessinceYou mean aside from the Chinese assisting Russia in Ukraine, further euthanizing minorities like the Uigher people, mass surveillance, and use of force to harass it's neighbors? (among other reasons)

But yes, I suppose Capitalism is the world's greatest religion nowadays. Let's not let morals get in the way of a quick buck.

China assists Russia, the west assists Ukraine. Ukrain tramples it's minorities too in the name of nationalism. It is forbidden to have minority language schools for over a decade now which effected a huge decline of literacy in all minority groups. Minorities who weren't immigrants, who doesn't wanted to be ukrainian, living in the same village as their ancestors did before a war or another moved the border under their feet.

As for the Uigher, China has no problems with the people. What they don't want is their religion: Islam. Something the US isn't very found of either within their borders AFAIK...

Mass surveilance is also in effect just not so openly. Think about the digital profiles we have for "convenience". All the sweet cookies we're consenting, all the metadata we provide.

Kohl BaasAs for the Uigher, China has no problems with the people. What they don't want is their religion: Islam. Something the US isn't very found of either within their borders AFAIK...

1. Uigher's are being forcibly sterilized right now. That's an attack on the people themselves, not their religion.

2. My cousin is literally married to a Muslim through a Muslim wedding ceremony that was held in California. My brother-in-law's boss in Muslim and they work for the US Government. A fair number of Afghani civilians were air-lifted out of Afghanistan and living in a Refugee camp in Virginia.

USA, despite our racism, actually are hugely supportive of the Muslim community. We don't like ISIS-K, Al Qaeda and you know, the ones who attack us. But half the reason we have any kind of effectiveness in the Middle East is because we have Arabic / Native-Muslim members of our community who can read / write / talk Arabic, Salafi and etc. etc. It wasn't enough to save Afghanistan from the Taliban but we put forth a good effort. (Ex: see how we convinced Saudi Arabia to open the airspaces to help us protect Israel from the Iranian missiles a few weeks ago. We have an incredibly good relationship with many Muslim nations).

There's a ton of US Charities (ex: Virginia Community Center - Women For Afghan Women) in support of Afghanis, Muslims, etc. etc. We actively are trying to foster our Muslim allies and protect them when we can... more so than most other countries. Yes we have racism problems but that's not the same as forcibly sterilizing / genociding an entire group of people.

AnarchoPrimitivEveryone and thing has their "own evils", but that in and of itself is never reason to withhold criticism and demanding that somebody does withhold their criticism until they've passed some sort of "purity test" is approaching an ad hominem.

It's not that I disagree, but at the same time, it's not something we can hold anyone accountable for, which makes the morality argument moot.

So Ngredia sells more neutered versions to China instead of fewer full performance versions…..

But still make 50% of sales revenue as profit….

Good for them, making a device in Taiwan and selling it to China with little EU or US taxes paid.

www.yahoo.com/tech/nvidia-newest-trillion-dollar-company-162100735.html

1.7% paid last year plus the CHiPs act gives them a 25% reduction.

evernessinceYou mean aside from the Chinese assisting Russia in Ukraine, further euthanizing minorities like the Uigher people, mass surveillance, and use of force to harass it's neighbors? (among other reasons)

But yes, I suppose Capitalism is the world's greatest religion nowadays. Let's not let morals get in the way of a quick buck.

China? Oh, China. My bad. I thought you where talking Turkey. But Turkey is a NATO member so everything is fine.
In politics hypocrisy is the main ingredient, so Nvidia selling 12 billion dollars AI accelerators to China at the same time that US is forcing sanctions on China on AI equipment, in fact makes total sense.

FoulOnWhiteDump your RTX GPU if you don't like it in protest

This is akin to the destruction of Beer Cans or Nike shoes. Getting rid of something you paid for doesn't change the fact that they already have your money.

FoulOnWhite. A lot of the stuff the west buys is still made in china, what are we going to do.

First, the topic is on exports to China not imports. I don't see how the US buying goods for China does anything to influence the points I made prior.

Second, this is a logical fallacy. You are implying that because the west still buys a lot from China, reductions in trade are meaningless so long as they don't meet whatever your arbitrary standard of "a lot" is. The reality of the situation is that any reduction in trade can be used to help shape China's behavior and if we look at the fact the US has in fact been diversifying away from China significantly post Pandemic. The US represents a massive chunk of China's exports still and China needs the US a lot more than the US needs China.

FoulOnWhiteNot selling GPU's to china is not going to stop them supporting whatever they like.

This is a truism in that it is correct but doesn't add anything to the conversation. Laws, sanctions, and other rules are designed around the idea of deter and contain. It will not change their minds or stop them from supporting their allies of convenience but it will place a significant burden on them when they do both in terms of cost and difficulty of acquiring the cards.

Given the volume the US has trade-wise with China and the shifting investment of production to 3rd world countries, China is in fact very much desperate to transfer it's economy over to a services based economy. They are not investing hundreds of billions into high tech industries for nothing. 95-98% of jobs in most 1st world countries are service based (like the UK for example at 98%). When economies mature they go from agriculture to manufacturing to services stacking each on top of the other like a cake. The lower layers account for an increasingly smaller part of the cake due to gains in efficiency. This is what allows the transition in the first place as more people are free to pursue jobs not directly related to their immediate needs like foods or goods.

dragontamer5788There's risks of China-US relations spiraling out of control, but things are steady for now.

Things are steady on the surface but China's population is aging out starting in 2027 as the ratio of retirees will start increasing greatly in proportion to working age adults. Military experts place an invasion of Taiwan somewhere around 2027 - 28.

China's activity in the south China sea and elsewhere suggest that things are slowly escalating still.

China is mostly likely waiting to see if America will go full authoritarian in the next election as they may be able to take Taiwan without US intervention.

AnarchoPrimitivEveryone and thing has their "own evils", but that in and of itself is never reason to withhold criticism and demanding that somebody does withhold their criticism until they've passed some sort of "purity test" is approaching an ad hominem.

Yep, Ad Hominem or Character Assassination. It's a deflection to avoid actually debating on topic.

Kohl BaasChina assists Russia, the west assists Ukraine.

Russian attacked Ukraine nu-provked. There's a big difference between the US supporting Ukraine in defending itself and China supporting Russia who is the aggressor. Chinese weapons that are being used to target civilians and by the same Russian military that has committed unspeakable war crimes throughout the war.

I would say it's beyond disingenuous to act as if those two are equal.

Kohl BaasAs for the Uigher, China has no problems with the people. What they don't want is their religion: Islam. Something the US isn't very found of either within their borders AFAIK...

You do realize this statement in contradictory correct? The Chinese government put them in re-education camps, sterilized god knows how many of their women, and have a forced work program.

The rest of your comment is just more of the same, providing false comparisons and deflecting to off-topic matters with a lethal does of gish gallop.

john_China? Oh, China. My bad. I thought you where talking Turkey. But Turkey is a NATO member so everything is fine.
In politics hypocrisy is the main ingredient, so Nvidia selling 12 billion dollars AI accelerators to China at the same time that US is forcing sanctions on China on AI equipment, in fact makes total sense.

Turkey has issues too but that's a topic for another thread. Your logic in this comment seems to be that because I didn't talk about a specific off-topic matter, somehow I don't think it's an issue. Obviously that's ridiculously nonsensical.

evernessinceTurkey has issues too but that's a topic for another thread. Your logic in this comment seems to be that because I didn't talk about a specific off-topic matter, somehow I don't think it's an issue. Obviously that's ridiculously nonsensical.

No, no, I don't expect from someone posting to start with an introduction about the 500 other issues that look similar before expressing an opinion. So, you are wrong there.
I am saying exactly what I said. Politics is full of hypocrisy so it makes total sense to have sanctions in place to show to your voters that you are doing something about a matter and then at the same time giant loopholes to let money pass.

john_No, no, I don't expect from someone posting to start with an introduction about the 500 other issues that look similar before expressing an opinion. So, you are wrong there.

:roll:

Oh no, but John didn't mention the Saudi's treatment of women so therefore he must support it!

She how dumb your logic is? You tried to make an argument based on something someone didn't say on a topic that isn't even tangentially related.

evernessince:roll:

Oh no, but John didn't mention the Saudi's treatment of women so therefore he must support it!

She how dumb your logic is? You tried to make an argument based on something someone didn't say on a topic that isn't even tangentially related.

Are you having a problem with reading comprehension? I just told you that I was NOT expecting from you any comment on another situation before expressing your opinion about China.
Read again. You are the one doing the dumb posting here, by not understanding what I posted to you. Calm down and don't rush to post.

400MW of GPUs. Everyone be sure to run your AC at 80F so we have enough electricity to generate some AI stuff.

Well done, 18+ comments at this time and most of them are nothing but political bs..
Totally what we need on a tech site.:rolleyes:

evernessinceYou mean aside from the Chinese assisting Russia in Ukraine, further euthanizing minorities like the Uigher people, mass surveillance, and use of force to harass it's neighbors? (among other reasons)

Running for the white house spokes person post or what :roll:?

Wake up, nobodys buying your broken record full of propaganda BS anymore.

The Empire of Lies time has ended , your empire is on its knees, grasping at any illigitimate government it can to start wars all around the world but this won't save it it will only accelerate the downfall !

Mods, cleanup in aisle five.

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