JustBenchingI specifically said, and im quoting myself "The games I couldn't play well on my 3090 would play even worse on the xtx".

I can't put it any simpler. The games that the 3090 struggled to play, the xtx struggles even more.

The whole point - for me at least - of upgrading a GPU is to play the games that your previous one struggles. 98% of the games played just fine on the 3090, I wanted to upgrade for the 2% that didn't.

So you used a 7900XTX?

kapone32So you used a 7900XTX?

Did you use a 3090?

Sorry for the question but I know where you are going and it's silly. The benchmarks are there, I checked them and I've seen that in the games that the 3090 is struggling so does the XTX. I've seen the benchmarks for the XTX the same way you've seen the benchmarks for the 3090.

At the end of the day, if the 8800xt isn't good in RT, it's just bound to sit at 10% marketshare, cause the other 90% already has an nvidia card and they are not going to downgrade their RT performance to save 29$. I gave you the 3090 example cause the same thing is going to happen again, nobody on an ADA card will look at an amd card unless they get better RT performance than their current one.

Neo_Morpheusworld of sheeples ran by influencers, whom are either bribed (my take) or worse, providing "guidance" based on their personal bias

Even if consumers were sheep herded by influencers - even if consumers could not make an educated choice - even if every accusation levied against a person's choice to purchase a product from any given vendor was true - the first rule of business is that the consumer is always right. You adapt to the consumers' needs, cater to their demands. Otherwise, they will happily take their business elsewhere - and by the looks of it, they have.

Bestowing these qualities upon people because they do not make the same choice as you do is akin to plugging your ears and going "nuh uh, lalala~" and trying to skirt around the issue entirely.

JustBenchingDid you use a 3090?

Sorry for the question but I know where you are going and it's silly. The benchmarks are there, I checked them and I've seen that in the games that the 3090 is struggling so does the XTX. I've seen the benchmarks for the XTX the same way you've seen the benchmarks for the 3090.

At the end of the day, if the 8800xt isn't good in RT, it's just bound to sit at 10% marketshare, cause the other 90% already has an nvidia card and they are not going to downgrade their RT performance to save 29$. I gave you the 3090 example cause the same thing is going to happen again, nobody on an ADA card will look at an amd card unless they get better RT performance than their current one.

I just use my 800+ Game library. Nvidia did something to me decades ago and I have not looked back since. You again are using your opinion of RT to make AMD seem bad because their RT support is not as strong. I don't subscribe to the 90% market share either when 4090s are being bought by China. If you saw what happened to TW 3 Kingdoms when it launched on Steam, you would understand how that could effect market share.

kapone32I asked you to prove that a 7900XTX is that much slower vs a 3090 and you posted PT. How does a proprietary feature matter in the conversation, like the 3090 is so good at PT.

A 3090 seems to be on par with an 7900 xtx, but maybe there are some heavier titles out there. Maybe JustBenching can tell us some of them. Also as his name implies, he likes to min/max his rigs. So Review Scores for RT might not indicate the numbers he sees.

kapone32I just use my 800+ Game library. Nvidia did something to me decades ago and I have not looked back since. You again are using your opinion of RT to make AMD seem bad because their RT support is not as strong. I don't subscribe to the 90% market share either when 4090s are being bought by China. If you saw what happened to TW 3 Kingdoms when it launched on Steam, you would understand how that could effect market share.

Holding a decades-long grudge. Classy. Guess I should adhere to the movement :kookoo:

kapone32I just use my 800+ Game library. Nvidia did something to me decades ago and I have not looked back since. You again are using your opinion of RT to make AMD seem bad because their RT support is not as strong. I don't subscribe to the 90% market share either when 4090s are being bought by China. If you saw what happened to TW 3 Kingdoms when it launched on Steam, you would understand how that could effect market share.

I don't want to discredit your grudge. But your doing a similar thing he is?? You wouldn't buy Nvidia because of a grudge and he wouldn't buy AMD because of lacking performance in RT. Both opinions are justified. Why argue if you never intend to meet on a middle ground?

Genuinely, this is a fucking kindergarten. Y’all have went so much off the rails it isn’t even funny. I am actually surprised that a mod hasn’t stepped in YET.

Let me remind you - this is a discussion of a RUMOR about the new AMD card going into production. Not about how AMD is suffering from bad mindshare. Not about how NV touched you in a bad place. Not about whether RT is or isn’t a useful feature. Sure, some of those things ARE part of the conversation, but they were exhausted a couple of pages ago. At this point this is just a thread of people shrieking past each other (figuratively) defending/attacking their emotional support billion dollar tech corpo of choice. And very unsubtle trolling and rage bait.

Fuck it, I’ll go there. @Solaris17 @the54thvoid Can we have a thread lock at this point? I don’t think letting it fester is healthy.

OnasiGenuinely, this is a fucking kindergarten. Y’all have went so much off the rails it isn’t even funny. I am actually surprised that a mod hasn’t stepped in YET.

Let me remind you - this is a discussion of a RUMOR about the new AMD card going into production. Not about how AMD is suffering from bad mindshare. Not about how NV touched you in a bad place. Not about whether RT is or isn’t a useful feature. Sure, some of those things ARE part of the conversation, but they were exhausted a couple of pages ago. At this point this is just a thread of people shrieking past each other (figuratively) defending/attacking their emotional support billion dollar tech corpo of choice. And very unsubtle trolling and rage bait.

Fuck it, I’ll go there. @Solaris17 @the54thvoid Can we have a thread lock at this point? I don’t think letting it fester is healthy.

No. But reply bans are being put in place.

OP is a rumour about the new 8800XT. Please speak speculative opinion about that card, please.

Stop the nGreedia/AMD fanboy/Intel whatever bullcrap.

3valatzyTo leave the gDPU market. Have you noticed that they haven't released a new software since October?
That is two months ago!
Now, if Radeon 8000 turns out to be a flop and the sales do not improve, their market share will go under 5%, maybe even 2-3%.
In which case they will no longer have money for R&D, and they will stop all dGPU projects, if currently any.



To give Nvidia the true monopoly.

AMD leaving the dGPU market is what the Nvidia users constantly bashing on AMD seem to want, no competition while the leather jacket man can charge what they like because their favorite brand has the "Ecosystem" they think is worth paying thousands for to make some game details shinier. Its sad to see people get excited for a 5090 with no regard for what it costs or how many prone to melting power connectors it will have.
I don't know why AMD hasn't released a driver in 2 months, but an assumption is they're getting the gaming and compute teams to collaborate so driver releases might slow down while work is being done on the software side of UDNA.
And Nvidia has had the true monopoly before AMD decided to leave the high end, AMD focusing on midrange is a much better approach as there is no point of sinking R&D into the high end when everyone will still buy Nvidia anyway. Also since Nvidia wants to make their own CPU's I would expect Nvidia to completely abandon the dGPU midrange market, or x60 and below and replace them with Nvidia handhelds and laptops with Nvidia SoC's.

DaemonForceMonopoly kind of but not really? Are you guys looking at the projected status of 2025 like at all?
For the first time in many years we have three different very well established companies making GPUs and they're NOT competing with each other.
We have nVidia at the very top of the food chain with blah blah blah mindshare blah blah blah best of the best of the best RT performance, whatever.
AMD is locked right into the mid-range market where almost all of this PC gaming hobby really matters and support is starting to evolve.
Then we have Intel still doggin it at the very bottom and struggling to put out fires right after Gelsinger got got, assuming nothing worse happens to the company.
This is not a good look for anyone getting into this hobby and I'm not even sure if I'm going to stick around for it either.

I think Nvidia has a monopoly in the worst way though, they have 88% of the whole GPU market, companies have been broken up for having less marketshare. Also while Nvidia sells a whole proprietary software suite and game companies are being paid to only develop for one version of RT. It isn't good for the game market and the consumer to not have RT be open to every platform, RT needs to be like what happened to Gsync, mostly replaced by the VESA open standard adaptive sync because its cheaper to add to a monitor and isn't locked into one GPU brand.
I agree AMD being in the midrange market is the best spot to be in, although they can't win any price war against Nvidia.

Well, looks like we have confirmation.

3valatzyThis looks like anti-competitive agreements between AMD, Nvidia, Intel and Microsoft to divide areas of influence.
Everyone knows that the PC market is larger, wealthier and more prestigious than the console market.

You now read this:



www.tomshardware.com/video-games/pc-gaming/50-years-of-pc-vs-console-gaming-revenue-visualized-pc-maintains-lead-over-consoles-vr-mobile-and-handheld-market-data-included

Does it? We don't disagree the PC is the better platform in every possible way, but the point I'm driving home here is that AMD's choice and ability to make custom APUs has been a strategic one that was already prepared for Nvidia's capture of the dGPU share on PC. AMD could have made more out of it, and tried to, but it was a half-assed approach - their pricing strategy for RDNA3 is clear evidence of that. They weren't in it to sell lots of units and even RDNA2 was lowered in price at the very last possible moment to remain competitive. 7800XT came too late for that to begin with, and the higher end clearly wasn't positioned to be a bang/buck king either. If RDNA3 had turned out more successful also in performance then sure, it would have sold better, but even then at its pricing it wouldn't have made waves; RT performance was what it was, its not like AMD didn't know.

And no, not everything that AMD fails at is suddenly an anti-competitive deal between X number of tech companies. It might look that way because these companies have knowledge of what the others are doing, guesstimates, and probably quite accurate at this point because they've been around for a while and DO cooperate on several fronts. MS and AMD obviously do, and so do AMD and Sony. Its not black and white competition, these companies look for win-win agreements. That's not anti competitive, in the end there's an honest product out there that you can choose to buy, and companies might share in its profits or advantages. Its not much different from companies outsourcing part of their task to someone else.

Even the positioning of RDNA4 underlines how important that console share is for AMD. Its what their GPU division rides on - its volume. The PC might be the better market, but it is what it is, AMD knows it is fighting an uphill battle and they've carved out new markets to sell their stuff - it all still rides on the very same thing they've always done: designing chips. Look at the handheld market: AMD has moved in on Nvidia there too by powering Steam Deck and some offspring. They know they've got something here, their strategy has worked out fine.

And let's face facts: AMD is still showing tangible developments on the CPU, APU front and even on GPU. The company delivers. X3D is a godsend for gamers. The ultra efficient low power CPUs are much the same. The IGPs are excellent. Intel can't match them, and I've yet to see Nvidia make an x86 APU that can game hard on a 15W power budget. If you ask me, apart from dGPU, AMD has a pretty strong presence on the gaming market with products no one else has.

Macro DeviceThis all's cool and dandy but if it's priced beyond 750 then what's the point.


Low? You were being too generous. RT performance in NVIDIA is extremely low; in AMD, doesn't even exist.

Low compared to what? How can it be low if their is nothing greater. Are you saying that navidia can just make rtx a priority over raster. Or should we keep it the way it is with both getting attention.

JustBenchingI specifically said, and im quoting myself "The games I couldn't play well on my 3090 would play even worse on the xtx".

I can't put it any simpler. The games that the 3090 struggled to play, the xtx struggles even more.

The whole point - for me at least - of upgrading a GPU is to play the games that your previous one struggles. 98% of the games played just fine on the 3090, I wanted to upgrade for the 2% that didn't.

What games can't you play? Who tf needs that much vram? Just turn off rtx, it isn't ready for every game. And there is no way your pc is gonna struggle on either card unless your pushing the cards too hard. What, do you play on 16k screen or something???

LincolnStine13How can it be low if their is nothing greater.

Easy-peasy lemon squeezy.

Games use VERY limited ray tracing that doesn't even remotely resemble real lighting. It's not even one percent of the complexity necessary to achieve realistic lighting. We need hardware hundreds upon hundreds faster than 4090 to have fully utilised this technique, unless devs come up with something that provides better bang per FLOPS.

Hecate91AMD leaving the dGPU market is what the Nvidia users constantly bashing on AMD seem to want, no competition while the leather jacket man can charge what they like because their favorite brand has the "Ecosystem" they think is worth paying thousands for to make some game details shinier. Its sad to see people get excited for a 5090 with no regard for what it costs or how many prone to melting power connectors it will have.
I don't know why AMD hasn't released a driver in 2 months, but an assumption is they're getting the gaming and compute teams to collaborate so driver releases might slow down while work is being done on the software side of UDNA.
And Nvidia has had the true monopoly before AMD decided to leave the high end, AMD focusing on midrange is a much better approach as there is no point of sinking R&D into the high end when everyone will still buy Nvidia anyway. Also since Nvidia wants to make their own CPU's I would expect Nvidia to completely abandon the dGPU midrange market, or x60 and below and replace them with Nvidia handhelds and laptops with Nvidia SoC's.

Focusing on the mid-range is a double-edge sword. The wealthy markets like Germany will buy RTX 4090/ RTX 4080 because they are faster, the less wealthy countries will buy the rest of the Nvidia lineup, because of the halo effect, marketing and the general perception that Nvidia is the smarter choice.
AMD have tried that in the past, and they failed. RX 480, RX 5700 XT, now RX 8800 XT, previously HD 3870, 4870, etc...
The solution is to focus on the halo part only, and nothing else.

ObscureAngelPT@Onasi I have to agree with you 100%, but I think there is a higher reason for this push honestly.
This push exist this early because it saves money and time to developers which is something very important in the actual state that the gaming market is.

Still, during the "holy grail" "inception" there were tons of game devs, which dropped RT idea during the development, altogether. Because they still had to make the work twice, or even trice as much. Firstly, because, they had still to make the raster part, since the absolute majority was having non-RT cards. And secondly RT capabilities of even current gen cards are still not even a "craddle" levels. The simple fact is, that the movie industry, uses entire farms, to render the image, for long time. Not even real time. How the heck, the single cards, can do the same real time?
And then the game devs still have to choose, which RT effects/parts they are going to implement, since none of current, and next couple/several GPU generations would be able to do full RT/path-tracing, with all the reflections, shadows, lighting etc.

Yes, RT is the way, the games should be made. This is without the doubts the ultimate way, not only for visual part, but for sound as well. But five years ago, and even now, the graphic cards RT capabilities are still not there. And if this is so, then there shouldn't be any push for RT for mass market. nVidia could make some prosumer cards for game devs to fool around, and for the wealthy boys and girls to burn the parent's cash. But these should be just a limited batch of silicon, to show the real state of things, and progress of the RT technology. But not more than this, until, the GPUs tech would be truly ready for RTRT. Until then, this is total BS. There's no hurry for RT, after all. As nobody can really speed up the tech development.

Neo_MorpheusWell, looks like we have confirmation.

That's only a month away. Looks like it'll be an interesting December with lots of GPU drip marketing. I am hoping to be positively surprised. See you folks there.

3valatzyFocusing on the mid-range is a double-edge sword. The wealthy markets like Germany will buy RTX 4090/ RTX 4080 because they are faster, the less wealthy countries will buy the rest of the Nvidia lineup, because of the halo effect, marketing and the general perception that Nvidia is the smarter choice.
AMD have tried that in the past, and they failed. RX 480, RX 5700 XT, now RX 8800 XT, previously HD 3870, 4870, etc...
The solution is to focus on the halo part only, and nothing else.

I think the wealthy markets will buy Nvidia regardless of AMD being in the high end, Nvidia is seen as the high end brand and consumers will buy it because reviewers will tell them its the only choice, or because their favorite influencer or streamer has a flagship Nvidia card.
AMD has also tried to get into the high end market with RDNA3 and didn't manage to sell very many, even though they're excellent cards.
I agree with @Vayra86, AMD is doing well with APU's and iGPU's, and AMD doesn't need to try to compete with Nvidia in the high end market. Midrange RDNA3 cards are a good value, and if the 8800XT has 7900XT performance for $500 it will sell well.

3valatzyFocusing on the mid-range is a double-edge sword. The wealthy markets like Germany will buy RTX 4090/ RTX 4080 because they are faster, the less wealthy countries will buy the rest of the Nvidia lineup, because of the halo effect, marketing and the general perception that Nvidia is the smarter choice.
AMD have tried that in the past, and they failed. RX 480, RX 5700 XT, now RX 8800 XT, previously HD 3870, 4870, etc...
The solution is to focus on the halo part only, and nothing else.

Not necessarily correct. Right now a lot of people, millions, are fed up with the dominance and high prices of Nvidia, so if AMD would bring a great mid range / upper mid range card with good drivers people would jump at it, just like they did with RX 580, 480 and recently 7800 XT. These cards all sold well enough, AMD just needs to sell even more. And making Halo cards is impossible if you lack money and tech for it (and money basically means development time = tech). So the way to start is always mid range and then go up if all goes well. Just like Intel is also trying now again with B580 cards. The mid range is more important than the Halo cards. Halo is a myth, otherwise nobody would buy anything else than cars from Mercedes if Halo would be everything. It’s not and it’s widely overrated and exaggerated.

Dr. DroIt's not feasible for many reasons. On the technical side, it's difficult to achieve to the very low latencies required between GPU core and memory, the fact that you'd need to build the core to handle whatever type and generation of memory the board would have installed, and that they'd have no direct feedback if the board where the core is installed is even adequate for its needs.

Of course it works, just like it does with motherboards. Video cards should have sockets with identification (1500, 1501, 1502, 1503, etc.). Then, on some website, the owner of the card would see which GPUs the card accepts and would buy and install a new GPU on the video card, just like what is done with motherboards. The user would only need to update the video card BIOS and replace the GPU. Very easy to do...

In the video card market, AMD makes money by selling GPUs only, it does not make money by selling (the expensive) VRAM and other components of the cards. If people could replace only the GPU, video cards would become much more affordable for consumers because they would not have to pay for all the other components of the cards.

AMD has a good enough team to do the R&D but a constant push on bleeding edge will cause bleed out.
Halo product is cool but not the ideal sale as that's not where even a good chunk of the money is at.
Upper range good, mid range super good and then the rest is straggler cash for odds and ends (SFF/home server).

I made the jump from a HD6570 2GB to a RX 580 8GB to solve very serious audio+video instability in VR low just a year after Oculus got settled.
The jump from this 580 to a 7900XT or 8800XT would be catastrophically MASSIVE no matter how many ways I slice it.
RT/PT features don't matter when I'm just looking for a decent ~200% jump in performance. The 5700XT and 6900XTU don't have the features I want but a 7900XT does.

Many of us do not upgrade to the newest flagship every generation. That's just not how we operate. Not as gamers and certainly not as independent creators.
If the whack-a-mole approach (high->high->mid) to releasing hardware works well enough for AMD, I'm going to at least consider the 8800XT as a good stop gap.

NhonhoOf course it works, just like it does with motherboards. Video cards should have sockets with identification (1500, 1501, 1502, 1503, etc.). Then, on some website, the owner of the card would see which GPUs the card accepts and would buy and install a new GPU on the video card, just like what is done with motherboards. The user would only need to update the video card BIOS and replace the GPU. Very easy to do...

In the video card market, AMD makes money by selling GPUs only, it does not make money by selling (the expensive) VRAM and other components of the cards. If people could replace only the GPU, video cards would become much more affordable for consumers because they would not have to pay for all the other components of the cards.

i am pretty sure your idea could technically work, but it would HELLA expensive, like incredibly so. It was already tried with phones for example. And most of the time the Problem is: Money

Like writing software-support for all the possibility, how would drivers work.

And for what purpose? Saving 50 $ per card (probably less)

And User Error is also a thing, how likely is it that a User breaks the VRAM Module (or what ever it is called)

How would the cooling solution work for the card, you need pressure for the block to work

and so on and on and on.

I am sure (that's a pretty rare thing) that it would never fly, crash and burn.

Space LynxI'm glad I semi-retired from the hobby with my 7900 XT, I just don't give a damn about ray tracing, and Physx before that. Give me simple raster, a cup of unsweetened green tea, and off to game I go lads.

I love this comment. I checked out of some hardware discord as it was just driving me to be thinking about too many unnecessary upgrades when I had already spent too much money for a hobby I barely have time to enjoy.

And you're right about tea. The right amount of sugar for tea is none. I visited my parents in the states a few years back and got some "unsweet tea" at a McDonald's, then proceededc to nearly gag on it because it was so sweet.

Dr. DroIt is. And it's, in my opinion, currently some $250 overpriced. That'd be how much I value Nvidia's driver support and ecosystem features, $250.
Pretty control panels don't make a quality KMD. Much less a feature complete one. Has AMD already implemented DX11 driver command lists?

What driver support exactly? That they support their cards 10 years instead of 8 years from AMD?
Feature complete it is for AMD. Nvidia is playing catchup with the app.
Most games released now are DX12. Why devote resources to DX11?

Hecate91I expect a better control panel when the leather jacket man charges a premium for it, Nvidia claims they're a software company after all.
AMD has their share of screw ups, however the mindshare works when reviewers are always finding reasons to criticize AMD.

Exactly. For a "software company" their consumer facing software sure sucks.

Dr. DroAnd how are we completely sure it's gonna be just $500?

Nothing is ever certain in life except for death and taxes but it makes sense. Since RDNA4's high end (meaning 899 and 999 cards) were canned then that leaves only the 500 range 8700/8800 series.

3valatzyTo leave the gDPU market. Have you noticed that they haven't released a new software since October?
That is two months ago!

One month ago. The release was at the end of October. Is there something not working that they need to release new drivers NOW?

3valatzyNow, if Radeon 8000 turns out to be a flop and the sales do not improve, their market share will go under 5%, maybe even 2-3%.
In which case they will no longer have money for R&D, and they will stop all dGPU projects, if currently any.

Ah yes. How many times have the doomsayers been predicting AMD's downfall?
Im still waiting. When Intel entered the market people were claiming that AMD will quickly fall to under 5% and yet here we are years later with Intel at 0%.
Tell me what was the last AMD GPU flop? I think it might have been either Fiji due to it's 4GB or VII. That was more than six years ago.

john_People don't play games with a frame counter visible. While it is essential, don't expect people out there looking how to secure a 60+ fps frame rate. Even 20-30fps will look as smooth gameplay to many out there and if you ask them they wouldn't know what framerate they have. Don't forget that consoles many times are targeting 30 fps not 60.

Consoles are fast moving to 60fps. Even Mark Cerny said that he was surprised at this development but it makes sense. Standards have raised. Once console players got taste of 60fps they were bound to reject 30fps even if it came with better visuals. On PC the minimum acceptable framerate has risen even higher. I now see many people saying 90 is their minimum. 144Hz monitors are very cheap now so it makes perfect sense.

john_Also someone having payed $2000 would want to see that that $2000 graphics card can be 3-4 times faster than the $1000 model from the other company. And for that person, 60fps will be more than enough.

A buyer who spends 2000 on a card will not be satisfied with 60fps even if it's 4x faster than competition. Why would this buyer care about competition at that point? They already bought the card. Now they want to enjoy maxed out high refreshrate gaming, not some 60fps slog in a tech demo that's nice to look at for a while but gets boring really fast.

john_you tell me that they wouldn't lower prices? They will. Even in gaming, the fact that they lowered prices and released the Super models when AMD's prices got too low, shows that they will react.

GDDR7 will not be cheap and Nvidia will use it across the board on 50 series from only one supplier. Super models are a scam. Slightly lower prices for miniscule performance improvement enticing people to upgrade. In reality it's one step back from a two step forward situation.
But sure. You wait your lower blackwell prices. I recon you'll be waiting a while...

JustBenchingThat was literally never the case. I had a bunch of high end cards the last 20 years. They all struggled to play the demanding games of their time. Watchdogs 2 was dropping to 20 frames at 1080p on my brand new 1080ti. What are you talking about man?

Yes it was. Well before this whole RT thing came about and tanked performance on even the fastest cards to near unacceptable levels...
I really dont know how you managed 20fps on a 1080 Ti on WD2 as TPU's review shows it achieving 40+ even at 4K and this was in 2017 when 4K was much more rare than today. Unless you ran at 8K or 4K with a really weak CPU it makes little sense. www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-ti/27.html