EarthDogUhhhh... B450, X470, X570, X550....

2+ generations aren't enough?

Its not about being enough 1gen ryzen is AM4 but it seems that a simple excuse like a small bios rom has been forgotten.

CountrysideIts not about being enough 1gen ryzen are AM4 but it seems that a simple excuse like a small bios rom has been forgotten.

Well lets see. Depends on the board and manufacturer i guess. I stil hear ASUS for example refusing to release never AGESA 1.0.0.4 for their B450 boards.
Technicly nothing is stopping B350 and X370 boards from supporting Ryzen 4000 series but some compromises may need to be made like for example making both legacy and up to date BIOS available. Legacy suppporting only Ryzen 1000/2000 series and newer supporting only 3000/4000.

In a way it's the manufacturers fault for not shipping those with a bigger BIOS chip. Just saving pennies and now it bites them into ass. MSI did well with their MAX series error correction. Others not so much. Im sure mobo makers would argue that they could have not have foreseen the growth of the code but it's a weak argument.

TomorrowSure because 99% of B450 boards can totally handle an overclocked 3950X without cooking the VRM and have much more IO. Except they don't. X570 is not for running your Ryzen 5 1600 or even 3600 CPU's. Its for 3900X and 3950X owners who want beefy VRM's and plenty of IO with more M.2 slots. Plus features such as dual BIOS, dip switches, monoblocks etc.

A lot of people miss out on this, and it's a pretty valid point. Puta a B450 board next to a X570 and the rear IO looks barren.
I would even add 7 segment displays for post codes instead of LEDs as a huge plus.

CountrysideIts not about being enough 1gen ryzen are AM4 but it seems that a simple excuse like a small bios rom has been forgotten.

The bios ROM chip size and type is selected by the board manufacturers, when x370/50 were made, same with later board's, they didn't have a crystal ball to hand, so unfortunately couldn't foresee what future bios updates might bring including new features requiring new settings and options.
There are vast differences in type and also gaping holes in support from the manufacturer to update bios since that doesn't bring in more cash.

In short regardless of whether I get support or not I wouldn't blame AMD ,they didn't make the board or choose it's bios chip or pciex wiring quality for that matter, that's the OEM.

TomorrowWell lets see. Depends on the board and manufacturer i guess. I stil hear ASUS for example refusing to release never AGESA 1.0.0.4 for their B450 boards.
Technicly nothing is stopping B350 and X370 boards from supporting Ryzen 4000 series but some compromises may need to be made like for example making both legacy and up to date BIOS available. Legacy suppporting only Ryzen 1000/2000 series and newer supporting only 3000/4000.

In a way it's the manufacturers fault for not shipping those with a bigger BIOS chip. Just saving pennies and now it bites them into ass. MSI did well with their MAX series error correction. Others not so much. Im sure mobo makers would argue that they could have not have foreseen the growth of the code but it's a weak argument.

They have not realsed AGESA 1.0.0.4 on 300 series mobos, 400 series has the update available.

ShurikNA lot of people miss out on this, and it's a pretty valid point. Puta a B450 board next to a X570 and the rear IO looks barren.
I would even add 7 segment displays for post codes instead of LEDs as a huge plus.

Indeed. That's why i did not even mention PCIe 4.0 because thats obvious. Better IO is why i got X570 in the first place tho i run "only" a 3800X. I do plan on uprgrading to 4950X whenever that comes out tho so it's good to know i have a board that can handle it (Aorus Master).

if you wanna use PCIe Gen 4 SSDs or GPUs for Ryzen 4th gen, it's either pick the B550 or X570. If not, the B450 works just fine. Having more options to build/upgrade while saving a few bucks along the way is good IMO.

theoneandonlymrkThe bios ROM chip size and type is selected by the board manufacturers, when x370/50 were made, same with later board's, they didn't have a crystal ball to hand, so unfortunately couldn't foresee what future bios updates might bring including new features requiring new settings and options.
There are vast differences in type and also gaping holes in support from the manufacturer to update bios since that doesn't bring in more cash.

In short regardless of whether I get support or not I wouldn't blame AMD ,they didn't make the board or choose it's bios chip or pciex wiring quality for that matter, that's the OEM.

Why the crystal ball AMD knew how many cpus they were releasing most likely this was a communication failure between AMD and mobo makers.

snuif09That's not how any of this works.

AMD said they would support socket AM$ throughout 2020. That implies previous AM4 motherboards should support newer processors. If that wasnt the case, there would literally be no reason to use the same socket. AMD has a long history of this, many AM2 motherboards could use AM3 processors.

yeeeemanLol to the guys that spent hundreds of dollars for X570, whereas B450 is just as good.

The majority of X470 boards have far superior VRMs to B450 boards. If you plan on using a 12 core or even an OCed 8 core, this is important.

TheinsanegamerNmajority of X470 boards have far superior VRMs to B450 boards. If you plan on using a 12 core or even an OCed 8 core, this is important.

but there is also boards like MSI's Tomahawk and the Mortar... which have quite capable VRMs at prices around 90-100€ and there are even worse X570 boards around which often cost 50-100€ more.

CountrysideWhy the crystal ball AMD knew how many cpus they were releasing most likely this was a communication failure between AMD and mobo makers.

They don't release specs for the fourth generation when making the first , shit they don't know themselves what the end product is, they hope it hit's projections and your making assumptions based on rubbish clearly ,when x370 came out they may have had an idea what the next year's chip might do but to expect four years of foreknowledge down to specs and features is dumb.

Surely intel would have a much easier time competing in a few years if they know exactly what AMD will make.

I don't get your butt hurt stance if x570 could not update ,that would be a scandal, x370/470 simply don't support all features already, PB2! Pciex4 so can't possibly expect parity going forward.

As I also said even if AMD released a supportive ageesa bios ,it WILL be a shitshow as to which boards ever get updated because the manufacturer gets no money and looses for sure a board sale.

theoneandonlymrkThey don't release specs for the fourth generation when making the first , shit they don't know themselves what the end product is, they hope it hit's projections and your making assumptions based on rubbish clearly ,when x370 came out they may have had an idea what the next year's chip might do but to expect four years of foreknowledge down to specs and features is dumb.

Surely intel would have a much easier time competing in a few years if they know exactly what AMD will make.

I don't get your butt hurt stance if x570 could not update ,that would be a scandal, x370/470 simply don't support all features already, PB2! Pciex4 so can't possibly expect parity going forward.

As I also said even if AMD released a supportive ageesa bios ,it WILL be a shitshow as to which boards ever get updated because the manufacturer gets no money and looses for sure a board sale.

So the AM4 socket backwards compatibility is partially backwards.

theoneandonlymrkThe bios ROM chip size and type is selected by the board manufacturers, when x370/50 were made, same with later board's, they didn't have a crystal ball to hand, so unfortunately couldn't foresee what future bios updates might bring including new features requiring new settings and options.
There are vast differences in type and also gaping holes in support from the manufacturer to update bios since that doesn't bring in more cash.

In short regardless of whether I get support or not I wouldn't blame AMD ,they didn't make the board or choose it's bios chip or pciex wiring quality for that matter, that's the OEM.

My Asus ROG Strix B450-F only has a 16 MB (128 mbit) Flash ROM but it supports 3000 series CPUs and still has a full GUI.
MSI is the only manufacturer I have seen that can't fit their GUI BIOS onto a 16 MB chip.
Version 3003 2019/12/26 9.59 MBytes
ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING BIOS 3003
1. Update AM4 combo PI 1.0.0.4 patch B
2. Fixed a compatibility issue with M.2s when using Ryzen 3000 CPUs.

That just tells me that MSI BIOS coders need to optimize their code.

This is amazing, that is one of the reasons I chose r5 3600 instead of the 9600k and I do have a msi b450 board. I love what AMD is doing, one thing that i hated about Intel was the constant must need new motherboard upgrade.

yeeeemanLol to the guys that spent hundreds of dollars for X570, whereas B450 is just as good.

Well unless Nvidia brings something good that has the need for pcie 4.0, I see no reason to buy a new motherboard.

DooMMasteRbut there is also boards like MSI's Tomahawk and the Mortar... which have quite capable VRMs at prices around 90-100€ and there are even worse X570 boards around which often cost 50-100€ more.

Those are few and far between. That's why ii said 99% of B450 board would have some problems with 3950X. You can find good and bad boards in every chipset category including Intel.
Tho i agree that if someone goes B450 i always recommend either the Tomahawk or Mortar MAX versions. If X570 then TUF and Aorus Elite at the low end and Master at the high end.

NoJuan999My Asus ROG Strix B450-F only has a 16 MB (128 mbit) Flash ROM but it supports 3000 series CPUs and still has a full GUI.
MSI is the only manufacturer I have seen that can't fit their GUI BIOS onto a 16 MB chip.
Version 3003 2019/12/26 9.59 MBytes
ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING BIOS 3003
1. Update AM4 combo PI 1.0.0.4 patch B
2. Fixed a compatibility issue with M.2s when using Ryzen 3000 CPUs.

That just tells me that MSI BIOS coders need to optimize their code.

Indeed. MSI has some of the biggest BIOS's out there. Most other manufacturers stay around the 10MB mark so i don't really see much problems fitting the last AM4 gen in there.

CountrysideSo the AM4 socket backwards compatibility is partially backwards.

I have never ever seen anything say that backwards compatibility would be guaranteed just that the socket would remain used, I expect the same as last time at best, possibly partial support or no PB3 or whatever or pciex4 ,at best.

With x370 your probably already at three generations of CPU to choose from , with compromise.

I think if you bought Ryzen 4000 and put it in anything less than an X570 your wasting potential anyway personally, I wouldn't consider a three year old board a viable home for what will be a comparatively higher valued processor.
Sorry if that opinion hurts , it is genuine and personal not malicious.

And those arguing pciex4 doesn't at all matter are going to be singing a different tune in a year IMHO, the ps5 will push that trend, probably the Xbox too.

DooMMasteRbut there is also boards like MSI's Tomahawk and the Mortar... which have quite capable VRMs at prices around 90-100€ and there are even worse X570 boards around which often cost 50-100€ more.

I didnt say ALL X570 boards were better, but the majority have a much more capable VRM then the likes of the mortar. The mortar has a 4 phase VRM. 4. You would not want to run a 3900x or 3950x on a system like that unless you had REALLY good air cooling. Even running a 3700x with PBO+autoOC on a 4 phase can get a little sketchy depending on cooling.

I'd love to see the $200 X570 boards that have a VRM WORSE then a 4 phase mortar. The only one I can think of is Asrock's pro 4, which uses absolute garbage MOSFETs, and despite having 8 phases overheats with a 3700x PBO+AutoOC. Most at that price will either have the same VRM setup as a mortar but usually with 5 or 6 phases instead of 4, or will have a 4 phase with better MOSFETs that have lower resistance.

B450 boards are not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but there is a reason people building powerhouse builds with 3900x CPUs use X570 boards, and it isnt just because they like spending $$$.

I think there should be X670 and B650 with proper chipset implementation, shrunk to N7 chipset so the need for active chipset cooling becomes not priority.

TomorrowSure because 99% of B450 boards can totally handle an overclocked 3950X without cooking the VRM and have much more IO. Except they don't. X570 is not for running your Ryzen 5 1600 or even 3600 CPU's. Its for 3900X and 3950X owners who want beefy VRM's and plenty of IO with more M.2 slots. Plus features such as dual BIOS, dip switches, monoblocks etc.

The thing is, B450 boards can handle the 3950X.

www.techspot.com/review/1942-ryzen-9-3950x-b450-motherboards/

They've also tested 3900X (which consumes more power than a 3950X) on B350:

www.techspot.com/review/1872-ryzen-9-on-older-motherboards/

People assume because it's a mid range board that it can't handle high end parts but they forget that AMD CPUs are rather energy efficient.

AMD: Our AM4 socket will be supported in the near future

Motherboard Manufacturers: Yeah about that, that doesn't fit in with our Planned Obsolescence, so we aren't going to continue supporting older gens with updates, so dem suckers have to buy new boards.

Caring1AMD: Our AM4 socket will be supported in the near future

Motherboard Manufacturers: Yeah about that, that doesn't fit in with our Planned Obsolescence, so we aren't going to continue supporting older gens with updates, so dem suckers have to buy new boards.

If you already have a 3000-series Ryzen, there is really no need to buy a new and expensive 4000-series Ryzen.
These new CPUs should be for new customers who should buy a new motherboard as well.

Really, if 4000 is the same core count as 3000, then the whole exercise becomes more or less meaningless and time and efforts wasting.
Better upgrade within the 3000-series lineup once the prices calm down.

AnarchoPrimitivbut AMD is pretty good to this community comparatively

Agreed.

As for the board that I'll use if I buy into these 4000 series chips, I'll get the latest, greatest that is available. (ASUS or ASRock)

ARFIf you already have a 3000-series Ryzen, there is really no need to buy a new and expensive 4000-series Ryzen.

With a Ryzen-7 3800X sitting here already, I'm not sure how compelling the 4000 series will be.
But who knows, AMD may hit it out of the park again and make me want to make another jump! (I'm so shallow!)

Caring1I hope it's extended to the X470 series too.

Based on my current experience with MSI, my X470 Gaming Plus will be left out in the cold. I'm glad i bought the 3700X instead of the 3600. Will last longer without upgrade.

yeeeemanLol to the guys that spent hundreds of dollars for X570, whereas B450 is just as good.

Yup, if i wanted to buy a X570 mobo with of same brand with similar feature set as my X470, the price was double. I don't care about PCI 4.0, neither my GPU or SSD support it and I don't need such speed.

ratirtIt is not just processor you buy motherboard for. There are other aspects like PCI-e 4.0 for instance. Besides, nobody knows what would the support for the 3rd gen ryzen on the B450 look like. Maybe it will be way better to go with the new chipset instead due to performance or other.

All benchmarks I've seen show even B350 performing the same in both synthetic and real-world loads as the X570. If you spend big money on PCI-E 4.0 SSDs or future multi-thousand dollar Ampere Titan GPU that might need PCI-E 4.0, paying $150 more to get a X570 motherboard is OK. All other use cases are well served with a nice B450 motherboard.

cosminmcmThey should work on X370 and B350 also, that was the promise. That is why I bought my X370. AM4 is AM4, the chipset should not matter.

You're left at the mercy of motherboard manufacturers. Some issue updates, other take 4 months (like MSI with my X470), others will just ignore the BIOS update.

TomorrowSure because 99% of B450 boards can totally handle an overclocked 3950X without cooking the VRM and have much more IO. Except they don't. X570 is not for running your Ryzen 5 1600 or even 3600 CPU's. Its for 3900X and 3950X owners who want beefy VRM's and plenty of IO with more M.2 slots. Plus features such as dual BIOS, dip switches, monoblocks etc.

Heh, my 3600 in my X570 Aorus Master begs to differ there, bud. Nothing wrong with us 3600 peasants wanting to adopt X570 boards for our builds. Was my board pricey? Hell yes. Do I regret buying it? Hell no. Because this way, should I ever feel the need for "moar CPU powah!" and decide to buy a 1st R9 for cheaps (well, cheaper) I can and won't have to worry about whether my board can handle it or not.

evernessinceThe thing is, B450 boards can handle the 3950X.

www.techspot.com/review/1942-ryzen-9-3950x-b450-motherboards/

They've also tested 3900X (which consumes more power than a 3950X) on B350:

www.techspot.com/review/1872-ryzen-9-on-older-motherboards/

People assume because it's a mid range board that it can't handle high end parts but they forget that AMD CPUs are rather energy efficient.

Chipset =/ VRM.


The gigabyte B450 pro wifi overheats when trying to push a 2700 on OC, and exhibited instability with multiple configurations due to heat. The b450 chipset is capable of using any 3000 series CPU, that doesnt mean that the motherboards they are soldered to can handle them (I mean seriously this is PC building 101, everyone should know this). Also, how are you figuring that a 12 core CPU is pulling more power then a 16 core fro the same generation?