AssimilatorThe neoliberal forces that cheered China's destruction of their home nations' manufacturing capabilities so that they could profit, are now the same ones demanding that China stop doing what made them rich. Of course, they're not demanding it because it makes sense, but because it gets them votes. After all, they're not going to be affected economically either way, so why do they care? Once they get into government, they can simply claim it costs too much, and poof, another election promise thrown by the wayside just like their integrity.

The only way manufacturing comes back to the West is if it's done entirely by robots, and since that doesn't create jobs, it's unlikely to be welcomed and hence supported.

Eastern Asian nations are likely to start taking on some of China's manufacturing capability but China has literally spent decades focusing solely on building up the infrastructure to be the world's production house. Even with massive Western investment, nations such as Vietnam simply aren't going to be able to scale up to those levels; not now, not ever.

India might be able to fill the Chinese gap in terms of size and numbers, and it's probably in the world's best interest for it to do so - but India also has a problem with Muslims, just like China. It's not at internment camp levels yet, but do you really want to have to choose between having your motherboard manufactured by a nation that treats an ethnic minority like prisoners, or by one that treats them slightly less badly?

At this point, all we can really hope is that the nationalists and neoliberals are replaced by saner people who aren't intent on having power for power's sake... before they start the war to end all wars.

You been to India lately? Or China, or Vietnam?

You seem to have little insight into what is going on in this part of the world.

India is very busy ramping up production of all sorts of things. Sure, it's going to take another 5-10 years before they're anywhere close to where China is today, but all the Taiwanese and Singaporean ODMs are moving large chunks of their production to India. Not necessarily because they want to, but because if you want to sell in India, you better be manufacturing in India. The Indian government are running a program called Make in India and are imposing bigger and bigger import duties on finished goods, especially on electronics, much like what Brazil has been doing for the past decade or so. However, as India is still very much a growing market, companies are willing to manufacture in India. Is it better quality than things made in China? I guess not, at least not yet and a lot of things are potentially of poorer quality too. That said, a lot of PCB manufacturing is going on in India as as you hopefully know, they're far superior to China, Taiwan and most of this part of the world when it comes to software development. There's also far less of a language barrier, as at least most educated people in India communicates in some level of English, which is nigh on impossible in China and sadly still somewhat dificult in Taiwan, unless you're lucky and find the right partners.

Vietnam seems to be focusing more on doing assembly type things right now, rather than making electronics, as well as a lot of other businesses. However, as it's another (albeit a lot softer) totalitarian state, it's hard for foreign companies to start things there, at least much harder than in many other South or South East Asian countries.
Cambodia is another sleeper nation in all this, as they seemingly want a slice of the cake as well, but they're a good five years behind Vietnam.

Taiwan is also moving back a lot of manufacturing from China to Taiwan, as it's no longer financially better to manufacture in China, as a lot of the salaries in China are now higher than in Taiwan. Problem is space in Taiwan, as the island is quite small and only so many factories can be built here. Most of the factory workers are from the Philippines or Indonesia though, as the locals aren't too excited about those kind of jobs. There are some 238k Indonesians and 142k Filipinos living and working in Taiwan, plus 200k Vietnamese and 64k Thai, although the latter tend to work in construction rather than factories.

Right now, the western parts of China are massively flooded, there's supposedly a food shortage, there's a water shortage in the western parts of China as the water treatment plants can't keep up and this is on top of the trade war with the US and a brewing border dispute with India. Things aren't looking great for China at the moment and the question is what will happen over the next few months. If shit really hits the fan, the West is going to be without a lot of junk from China, which might also be a blessing, as most of the crap made in China aren't things we need. We've also become way too much of a throw-away society, simply because things are so cheap, so even if they don't last, it's not a big deal, as we can get a new one for cheap. In fact, if you ask a Taiwanese person for buying advice, most often they'll tell you to get the cheapest one...

What needs to be done, is to spread out the manufacturing of things, we can't rely on a single nation to supply the world with electronics, crappy plastic stuff, 75% of IKEA junk and so on, it's simply not sensible. Just look what happened when the Wuhan virus struck, there were shortages of a lot of things almost immediately, as most companies these days rely on a just-in-time type production system. Even more striking was the fact that European and US companies ran out of shipping containers, as they got stranded in China due to the fact that no goods was leaving China. So even if Western companies could've continued to manufacture goods, they couldn't ship it.

The world has truly gone mad and the reliance on China is only part of it.

the54thvoidIf you consider how many 'outposts' the old empires of Europe and the US have a across the globe, and consider the displacement of indiginous people by said acts, it's naive to see China as the sole aggressor. Yes, it's a very intolerant government with an atrocious human rights record. But it's not alone. Saudi, the UK and the US's biggest arms customer is one of the worst in the world. But damn, those pounds and dollars....

I just find the binary, West is good, China bad mantra , a tad tedious and ill-informed.

Japan used Chinese women as rape prisoners in WW2. Go Google it. China was trampled on for centuries.

Edit: FTR, I'd never choose to live in China. Beautiful country spoiled by its government.

Not defending the West, the white man has done so many utterly rotten things over the past few hundred years. The problem is that now China is trying their way of colonizing the world, which isn't going to make things better, as it's likely to ignite new wars, mainly in Africa.

Just a small thing that's been going on that most people are likely to be unaware of, Somaliland, a non UN recognised, self-declared state (that split from Somalia) decided to recognise Taiwan as an independent nation. As soon as that happened, China pressured Somalia to issue issue a statement about "one Somalia" while at the same time, Somalia and China jointly issues a statement that Somalia supports the "one China" policy and Somalia has been trashing Taiwan for what's been going on.
Obviously, no-one outside of the affected nations is likely to pay much attention to this squabble, but this is how China does international "politics".
allafrica.com/stories/202007050114.html

China also have a lovely ambassador in Sweden, who has threatened not only the Swedish media, but also several politicians with repercussions unless they change new articles to put China in a different light, as well as trying to prevent the politicians to attend certain events that were critical against China.

China has also threatened Czech politicians and promised that there will be repercussions for them visiting Taiwan last week.

The PRC government is not something you want to mess with, as they'll do everything they can to give you grief.

That said, I'm not a big fan of any of the so called "superpowers" as those nations are too big for the good of the rest of the world. On top of that, we have several world leaders that are seemingly on a power trip for some reason or the other, which is putting a lot of people in danger.

I thought that the world was heading towards a better place when the iron curtain fell and most "communist" nations ended, but it seems like little has changed and we're now heading in the wrong direction again. We truly are our own worst enemy.

As a side note, the Japanese also abused Korean and Taiwanese women in the same way as the Chinese.

TheLostSwedeMuch needed for what exactly?
I have no need for them. I would much rather that Japan, Taiwan, India, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam and other Asian countries took over from China, or why not move some of it back to North America or Europe?
What is good with China being in charge of so much of what is being manufactured? They've only ended up in this position because it's been cheap to make things there, not because it's better quality or because it's a nice place.
And there's no paranoia, go and learn a bit about what's going on in China, look at how much technology China has stolen or otherwise illegally obtained over the years. Not that long ago, foreign companies that wanted to set up a business in China had to transfer technology rights to the Chinese government, or they were not allowed to operate in China. The foreign entity wasn't allowed to own more than 49% of the company and a lot of businesses lost their entire operation there due to this. It's a nation that is rotten to the core.

That said, I'm no Trump supporter. Nor do I support Putin. But to say that the Chinese tech companies are needed is a lie.

Amercan companies are solely responsible for creating China's manufacturing capabilities:

They chose not to manufacture there because they didn't want to pay a living wage
They chose not to manufacture there because they didn't want to meet environmental regulations
They chose not to manufacture there because they can grab monster bonuses because of the above
Tech wasn't stolen, it was given
To manufacture here and comply with above, costs would increases at least 50%
Ever wonder why Chinese components are subject to tariff, but PCs built 100% in China are exempt ? All about Big Tech Exec bonuses.

US has long ago switched from a "we make things" economy to a "I know a guy" economy. It's no longer about making something and selling it ... it's about squeezing the people why actually make things to barely survivable margins and reselling it at bloated profits. PC sales and PC component sales are dominated by resellers, not the companies that actually make things. China was dependent on the people "who new a guy" to move their products... But they been sending their kids here to be educated, to work in their early years ... and now 'they know guys too". It's not so much if China needs us, it's just as much about about,do they need us ?

Wherever the factory is .... the major part of the profits are still going back to the parent company.

BArmsThe joke/funny thing is also going to be how easily Trump wins re-election thanks to decades of people shilling for China and selling their political souls to them.

Someone must've missed the polls as of late (yes, I'm aware polls can be meaningless but they still make it hardly an "easy win.")

Still, this doesn't bother me either. I think if there's one thing in China we CAN replace, it's semiconductor tech.

the54thvoidEdit: FTR, I'd never choose to live in China. Beautiful country spoiled by its government.

Beautiful country spoiled by humans, without them it could only be better.

R0H1TThe vast majority of them ethnic Hans, whilst suppressing minorities like Uighurs, Tibetans et al with an iron fist. But of course you know that, then there's this ~

China cuts Uighur births with IUDs, abortion, sterilization

Tell me how does it feel comparing large scale internment reeducation caps to whatever else other countries are doing atm :rolleyes:

Yes a lot of nations on the planet are no better than others with their systemic faults, including what I'd call is the secular divide over here. Then going on to justify what China is doing at an industrial scale, yup can see the great logic there :wtf:

I don't think the news your share is really,because in our law minority can have more child,more than who are not minority.
Im a Chinese

This should not come as a shocking news. The moment the company is somewhat helping Huawei or perceived to be helping the government, they should not expect business as usual.

As to relying less on China, I agree that China have the expertise and infrastructure. But 1, it is no longer as cheap as it used to be to produce there. 2, the COVID situation magnified the concentration risk there when China shuts down, and supply is severely disrupted. 3, the political situation there is extremely fluid and I generally feel they are hostile to foreign countries.

Caring1Beautiful country spoiled by humans, without them it could only be better.

Nothing wrong with humans here. Specifically it is spoiled by peoples' greed and pride.

[QUOTE =“ Bones，帖子：4344042，成员：144474”]
TBH我从未意识到这一点，也从未听到过任何消息。
但是，如果那确实是真的，那么特朗普只是在跟进奥巴马的所作所为，并将其进一步推进。


问题在于，无论如何，随着时间的流逝，中国将变得更具侵略性，历史已经证明了事实，因此是否有人站出来反对这不是问题。
他们以所有这些小岛为例，扩大军事影响力，以此类推，让他们变得更具侵略性而不是成为目标的问题，更像是成功实现自己的议程而坚定地这样做。

他们取得的进步越多，就像过去其他政权所做的那样，他们就会做的越多，推动事物看一个人能走多远只是人类的本性。
就像在学校时一样，你是班上的小丑-总是测试事物的边缘，看是否可以摆脱它，并且您已经知道失败的后果。
[/引用]
you think China is aggressivity ,but in War in Afghanistan 、the Iraq War and so on,American is more aggressivity.American think they are police of the world,requried the world on the road of they want.

Dave65Right wingers bash China but wrap their arms around Putin because the Orange PORK RHINE says so.

What? Both countries have shown they're not to be trusted yet people in America are so brainwashed by their own 2 party crap show it's easy to lose the bigger picture I suppose. Sad times. Anyways, here's to hoping the US cuts ties with another CCP business.

sepheronxDropped from ABM treaty when it suited them, claimed they didn't have enough money to remove their chemical weapons while UN agency proved Russia did (us claiming it didn't have enough money, lol), Iraq war and its chemical weapons claim, etc.

What are you talking about? In Russia the government has just tried to assassinate one of the opposition leaders with forbidden chemical weapons. The irony is strong on this one.

BoboOOZWhat are you talking about? In Russia the government has just tried to assassinate one of the opposition leaders with forbidden chemical weapons. The irony is strong on this one.

If they did, he would be dead. That narrative is silly especially when Masha 2% was also allowed to be sent to a German hospital regardless.

But keep up with this narrative.

Just like how people claimed Kremlin shot and killed Nemtsov, but they can't kill Navalny? No one actually believes that narrative. Well, I guess you do.

Yeah, try to kill someone with the deadliest nerve agent that hasn't managed to kill anyone (or at least the target) and then send them off to Germany willingly while there is no actual open flights between the two nations as of right now, just so a military clinic in Germany can claim he was poisoned.

And no, he wasn't opposition. KPRF and LDPR are opposition, Navalny isn't.

kxt7319I don't think the news your share is really,because in our law minority can have more child,more than who are not minority.
Im a Chinese

I don't think you're wiling to believe anything but the CCP narrative, what's happening to the Muslim minority in Xinjiang is something only the biased would ignore. Of course you're also probably(?) if not willingly going to ignore whatever's been done to the Tibetans for better part of 7 decades. I know because I'm an Indian & we have the largest population of Tibetan refugees IIRC, the fact that China invaded Tibet & none gave a rat's behind back then was a precursor to anything & everything happening today!

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Why is this apt here? Because nation (states) have always been greedy & self centered, though in today's world when the economies are so intertwined & in fact China depends on exports more than ever if you aren't willing to back the so called principles you happily preach, not only only will China trample on you but also your ability or vision of a better (i.e. more equitable) world. The "but but but, big bad US of A" did this or that argument doesn't work for me, any other nation's ills or shortcomings doesn't give them a way out of what they're doing over there & continue to do so with impunity!

In that, as I said in one of the others threads, we have the power to stop making the richest even richer ~ stop buying junk that you don't need. Stop buying things, say from China, just because they're cheap. Every user on this forum, including me, is complicit in giving the mega-corps, politicians & of course the CCP their unimaginable power & influence.

You can stand for others & you can make this world a better place, most if not everyone of us will need to change our habits & often times self centered approach though.

SMIC produces crap anyway...

TheLostSwedeRight now, the western parts of China are massively flooded, there's supposedly a food shortage, there's a water shortage in the western parts of China as the water treatment plants can't keep up.

I'll be going on a holiday to rural regions in Guizhou, Sichuan, and Chongqing soon, and will see if any of that is true.

It is a little alarming that Xi is repeatedly telling people to stop wasting food (seriously, a lot Chinese people always buy tons of food and throw half or them away without a second thought, wtf lol), but I haven't seen anything going on with food prices.

sepheronxIf they did, he would be dead. That narrative is silly especially when Masha 2% was also allowed to be sent to a German hospital regardless.

But keep up with this narrative.

Yours is a "narrative", it's the second time the Russian government fails with Novichok, the first time it's widely documented, they failed to kill their targets (Skripal and daughter) and only managed to murder one innocent.

sepheronxJust like how people claimed Kremlin shot and killed Nemtsov, but they can't kill Navalny? No one actually believes that narrative. Well, I guess you do.

Nah, the Russin propaganda is not that strong, many people still use their brains, at least in the democratic world.

sepheronxYeah, try to kill someone with the deadliest nerve agent that hasn't managed to kill anyone (or at least the target) and then send them off to Germany willingly while there is no actual open flights between the two nations as of right now, just so a military clinic in Germany can claim he was poisoned.

And no, he wasn't opposition. KPRF and LDPR are opposition, Navalny isn't.

You're basing on your narrative just on the absurd premise that Russian special forces cannot fail? That's laughable, read on the Skripal case they not only failed to assassinate their target, they also managed to compromise a whole network of undercover operatives in Western Europe because they all had consecutive passport numbers. How dumb is that?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal
Corruption and nepotism don't create a good premise for competence, and the Russian special services are known for blatant failures. In each terrorist situation they manage to kill more than half the hostages themselves.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege#:~:text=The%20Beslan%20school%20siege%20(also,the%20deaths%20of%20334%20people.
Not very competent because corruption and propaganda don't lead to competence. Your premise is absurd.

Yes, well, those in the non "democratic" countries don't believe the narrative of Germany so far. Actually, most Germans don't either from what I gathered. Plus, it was the "democratic" countries that state Russia got Trump into power yet can't kill a guy even if the tested method of shooting one in the face in a robbery gone bad or car accident isn't worth it? But poison him and send him willingly to Germany?

Innocent till proven guilty. So I'm awaiting for Germany to provide it before I believe it.

Anyway, enjoy and hope all is well in your "democratic" country. Mine of Canada is just fine.

sepheronxAnyway, enjoy and hope all is well in your "democratic" country.

It's awesome actually, I was born and lived for 12 years behind the Iron Curtain, before emigrating as a young adult to the West.
life is great in a democracy, just try it sometime.

BoboOOZIt's awesome actually, I was born and lived for 12 years behind the Iron Curtain, before emigrating as a young adult to the West.
life is great in a democracy, just try it sometime.

I guess you also failed Geography besides common sense since Canada is the west. And yeah, I have family in both Ukraine and Russia so I guess I got both perspectives.

It's nice.

sepheronxI guess you also failed Geography besides common sense since Canada is the west. And yeah, I have family in both Ukraine and Russia so I guess I got both perspectives.

It's nice.

Ha ha, from the tone of your messages I thought you lived somewhere where you don't have much access to information, sorry about that, now I see it's just you. That just shows how well Russian propaganda works :eek:. Over and out.

BoboOOZHa ha, from the tone of your messages I thought you lived somewhere where you don't have much access to information, sorry about that, now I see it's just you. That just shows how well Russian propaganda works :eek:. Over and out.

Nah, just a bit of history knowing what US government did to my father when he was stationed in Pakistan. That is all. So I question every narrative.

See you around.

OK, this is way off topic and I know most don't care, but as a Greek I have to say that reading posts from US citizen (any German in here? Turkey needs more guns to attack an EU state and I know you would love to sell them some) about how China is an aggressive nation that creates tensions with their neighbors, I have to say that this is hypocrisy at best. I mean, we have Turkey threatening Greece with war every f day, but who cares. US doesn't, that's for sure. We hear Erdogan and other politicians shouting like psychopaths how they will annihilate Greece and sank the French carrier Charles De Gaulle, but who cares?

Please continue about the big, bad, China.

john_OK, this is way off topic and I know most don't care, but as a Greek I have to say that reading posts from US citizen (any German in here? Turkey needs more guns to attack an EU state and I know you would love to sell them some) about how China is an aggressive nation that creates tensions with their neighbors, I have to say that this is hypocrisy at best.

It's hypocritical indeed. I say that as a US citizen myself. I think a fair more few of us feel this way than people think. We tend to be quiet though, which makes us less visible.

Really the only difference is we haven't attacked our direct neighbors for a bit (Mexico-American war was a while ago, but bad enough that it probably earned us more than enough points for two centuries)

the54thvoidOkay, back to SMIC.

Does anybody care to discuss the technology of government sponsored espionage and backdoors?

about backdoors, i don't think any chip makers would put backdoors in their chip or whatever it is, since it would risk their reputation and since the competition is pretty tight, bad reputation means much
somehow i feel, especially any chip from china. the government push the chip maker to put backdoors so they could monitor or take anything that tagged suspicious from them.
in fact like now we have many things in our portable stuff that called valuable information

Remember how US can track Osama Bin Laden

Short term: maybe slightly higher prices for some things. Long term: less dependency on a country known for scummy market practices, excessive price dumping, no respect for intellectual property on individual and government level. Also, eating bats and spreading disease while covering it with misinformation.
Not to say other countries are not guilty of such things, but this particular one really shines in all the unethical practices you can imagine.

the54thvoidA lot of people seem to forget it was the previous, Obama administration that started moving against Huawei. It's not about Trump. I have wondered why so many larger Chinese companies haven't been targeted yet.

I don't think it's wise mind you. Wars tend to get ugly. Diplomacy often works better. The more China is targeted, the more hostile it becomes.

Hi,
Like covid-19 release.

Reading this thread made me puke. Sad!

R-T-BIt's hypocritical indeed. I say that as a US citizen myself. I think a fair more few of us feel this way than people think. We tend to be quiet though, which makes us less visible.

Really the only difference is we haven't attacked our direct neighbors for a bit (Mexico-American war was a while ago, but bad enough that it probably earned us more than enough points for two centuries)

You don't attack them openly, you just build walls to keep them out. Or enable systemic discrimination against them and other ethnic minorities.

ThrashZoneHi,
Like covid-19 release.

Cool conspiracy theory bro. You got any more of them tinfoil hats? Or maybe something better, like evidence?