It's like more effort to keep the monopoly grasp of the market. Sorta everyone can have whatever solution, with the single condition that it will remain having nVidia design. This is a notion to the customers, to not try and waste their time on developing their very own solution. The big daddy has it already. This is akin old Creative and intel days.

OnasiI don’t think skin lotion makes much sense in terms of providing cutting edge graphics, but maybe I’m missing something. Guess cosmetics industry has made some impressive breakthroughs.

john_Only with plenty of capacity around the world we can hope

Chip manufacturers are certainly trying to expand their operations but they avoid having unused capacity at all costs, because unused capacity apparently is the most expensive thing you can have.

john_Nvidia decided that consoles and other stuff with lower profit margins are now important? Who would have thought that?

Well, no surprises here. They wanted to buy ARM to become the Intel of the future. They failed buying ARM, but go with their plans anyway.


Microsoft will probably go with Intel for it's future console, but who knows. They could go with Nvidia and hope that Nvidia's brand recognition could help them win against PS6. Of course it will cost them and they will have to go with ARM architecture, but.... just a thought.

Nvidia didn't leave the console market they got left. (same happened with apple).

The original XBOX used nvidia (a modified geforce 3), the Playstation 3 used nvidia (a modified 7800), arcade hardware is still big in some areas of the world and back in the PS3 era the Taito Type X-2 (which games such as Street Fighter 4 were developed on and for) used a 7900 gs and later a 9800. In each of these cases nvidia burned the hardware makers pretty hard and all of them went AMD immediately after having dealt with nvidia.

While the details of what went down are obviously stuff the parties can't talk about what is known is it wasn't about price or profits. But something happened for them to burn the bridge with Xbox, Playstation, and Taito within short order and that none of those companies want to deal with them anymore. There's whatever happened with apple as well. Currently nvidia is in the Nintendo Switch and that seems to have worked as nvidia is going to be in the next Nintendo switch as well from what we currently know. The thing is that these are corporations and corporations like trust and stability. They'll pay more or make less to deal with a reliable partner where they don't have to worry about any headaches or distruptions cropping up. So far AMD has proved to be an extremely reliable partner and nvidia has proved to be a giant pain in the ass.

The kicker is that console makers don't need nvidia at all. On the other hand AI, enterprise, and professional users need nvidia. Gamers want nvidia. Of these three groups nvidia only needs AI, enterprise, and professional users which is the market AMD actually wants.

Nvidia's ace in the hole if it wants gaming is it's entire product stack for when PC gaming makes it's final big push to get everything up into the cloud.

But all this goes to show nvidia can be defeated. Of course the result of that is not cheaper nvidia, it's pushing them out of a market completely. And since PC gamers only want cheaper nvidia and don't care who it hurts to get that and aren't willing to just push them out of the market what PC gamers want and say has no impact at all. It's just children stomping their footsies. Where MS and Sony just flat out got rid of them.

@SOAREVERSOR Good points. The thing is that Nvidia is way too rich today compared to the past. Meaning in this case they can agree selling hardware for consoles without making much profit. They aren't going to miss a billion or two. And because in 2-5-10 years they might not be the only player in the market for AI, they might even not be the top player in the market for AI, I think they will try to snatch markets now that they are all powerful. Meaning consoles, laptops and desktops (I mean whole platform, not just GPUs). So, in this case I wouldn't be surprised if companies sworn to never do business again with Nvidia(with the exception of Apple) start doing business with Nvidia. Nvidia would be shortsighted to lose this opportunity and I think this new semi custom chip business is an indication that they are changing attitude, at least towards huge corporations. Consumers and AIBs will probably still get ***beep*** by Nvidia. Then again arrogance is pretty high in the Nvidia HQ, so who knows maybe I am just talking nonsense here.... Hope I am.

john_@SOAREVERSOR Good points. The thing is that Nvidia is way too rich today compared to the past. Meaning in this case they can agree selling hardware for consoles without making much profit. They aren't going to miss a billion or two. And because in 2-5-10 years they might not be the only player in the market for AI, they might even not be the top player in the market for AI, I think they will try to snatch markets now that they are all powerful. Meaning consoles, laptops and desktops (I mean whole platform, not just GPUs). So, in this case I wouldn't be surprised if companies sworn to never do business again with Nvidia(with the exception of Apple) start doing business with Nvidia. Nvidia would be shortsighted to lose this opportunity and I think this new semi custom chip business is an indication that they are changing attitude, at least towards huge corporations. Consumers and AIBs will probably still get ***beep*** by Nvidia. Then again arrogance is pretty high in the Nvidia HQ, so who knows maybe I am just talking nonsense here.... Hope I am.

There's a huge catch here that many people on this forum refuse to admit. Consumers aren't actually getting fucked by nvidia. Sure there is some price gouging going on, and yes inflation has a bit to do with it, but that's not the whole story. The core issue is that gamers kept demanding fancier stuff. That's it right there gamers get the blame. Because fancier stuff with better graphics costs more to design, costs more to make, the entire component BOM goes up massively. In other words if you want faster graphics you are asking for graphics card prices to go up. And each time you want that the price goes up again. So really gamers have been voting for higher prices by demanding better graphics. This is the same reason so many AIBs have crashed and burned the cost of making GPUs has skyrocketed massively as they got more complex.

The solution for cheaper stuff is to stop wanting advances in graphics, physics, and all of that so all the new advances could focus on making what can be done now cheaper. But the moment you want something better prices go back up again and no amount of screaming "negreedia!!!! muh g4m1ng PC!!!! Master Race!!!!" is going to change that.

Console makers aren't special snowflakes like PC gamers though. They go into this knowing they are going to take a loss on each unit produced and subsidize the cost to make it all back later through games, fees, and licensing. What they care about is a partner that they can deal with reliably, honestly, and consistently. The moment they get screwed on this they will tell another party to go get fucked and find a new supplier.

Custom chips can mean a lot of things as well. Nvidia isn't just GPUs.

The best "solution" for nvidia from a PC gaming standpoint would just be to ignore them. But that's not going to happen as you can see whenever AMD releases a card the first words out of peoples mouths are hoping this will cause nvidia to lower their prices. It's pathetic to the point of watching the fat ugly kid constantly pining after the hot chick who's off with the good looking guys having fun. Console makers aren't like that though. People buy consoles for the games on it and could give a rats ass who made the hardware or what's in it apart from teenage boys arguing on the internet over it. So all it takes is someone like nvidia driving the wrong people at Sony up the wall and causing them headaches and blamo nvidia is out and AMD is in. For an entire hardware generation, if not multiple generations. As if AMD delivers and the people at Sony are happy with it and still remember nvidia screwing them over the next time it comes to design something AMD is already in the door and everyone is still angry with nvidia. This is something Valve got early on. They went with a reliable and easy to deal with partner. Not only that Steam Deck OS is the killer advantage it has over all the competition not the hardware.

Console makers aren't dumb and neither is nvidia. There's no nvidia sticker on the switch because nobody cares. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and allow Nintendo to sell hardware and thus stay in business no what's in the box. Slapping nvidia stickers on Xboxs and Playstations and talking about DLSS, RTX, and all that isn't going to move sales at all and will just generate eyerolls and "keep that PC bullshit out of here please" comments at best. So nvidia can scream all they want "we are the desired brand, just look at the PC gamers" and console makers can howl with laughter and say "our customers aren't that stupid and desperate" and that will be that.

SOAREVERSORhere's a huge catch here that many people on this forum refuse to admit. Consumers aren't actually getting fucked by nvidia. Sure there is some price gouging going on, and yes inflation has a bit to do with it, but that's not the whole story. The core issue is that gamers kept demanding fancier stuff. That's it right there gamers get the blame. Because fancier stuff with better graphics costs more to design, costs more to make, the entire component BOM goes up massively. In other words if you want faster graphics you are asking for graphics card prices to go up. And each time you want that the price goes up again. So really gamers have been voting for higher prices by demanding better graphics. This is the same reason so many AIBs have crashed and burned the cost of making GPUs has skyrocketed massively as they got more complex.

The solution for cheaper stuff is to stop wanting advances in graphics, physics, and all of that so all the new advances could focus on making what can be done now cheaper. But the moment you want something better prices go back up again and no amount of screaming "negreedia!!!! muh g4m1ng PC!!!! Master Race!!!!" is going to change that.

I disagree. Until maybe 10 years ago, we where getting 50-100% faster models in every generation compared to the previous one, with the prices remaining almost the same, some times even going down because of competition. What changed is that integrated graphics and APUs killed the fat cow that was called "low end", forcing companies like Nvidia and AMD to eliminate low end graphics cards and start creating higher price points. Titan for example, was just that, a vehicle to make the $1000 price point acceptable by consumers. And it was introduced just a little time after Intel integrated an iGPU in it's CPUs and AMD started making APUs. No coincidences here. Marketing around it was fuzzy on purpose, one time advertising it as a gaming card, another time advertising as a semi pro model. That way Nvidia's marketing could justify the price point, while also convincing gamers to buy a $1000 card just for games.
While inflation has played a role, costs of 5nm wafers has played a role, having to put hi quality components to handle 300-600W has played a role, the main reason for prices going up is that now companies like AMD, Nvidia and Intel need to make enough income by selling fewer and at the same time more expensive cards. So they try to increase their profit margin from every card they sell. A $200 card will be sold for $300, a $600 for $1000, a $1000 card for $2000.

SOAREVERSORConsole makers aren't special snowflakes like PC gamers though. They go into this knowing they are going to take a loss on each unit produced and subsidize the cost to make it all back later through games, fees, and licensing. What they care about is a partner that they can deal with reliably, honestly, and consistently. The moment they get screwed on this they will tell another party to go get fucked and find a new supplier.

Custom chips can mean a lot of things as well. Nvidia isn't just GPUs.

The fact that they can start selling at a loss is a positive for Nvidia, if Nvidia can convince them that using Nvidia tech will mean much higher console sales, more income through "games, fees, and licensing".
Nvidia is going "FULL ARM". They waited and remained mostly quiet to get ARM, but others weren't fooled. Now Nvidia is coming out on the open, going full ARM. Just a speculation from my part. They might end up doing nothing. But $30 billions does look serious.

SOAREVERSORThe best "solution" for nvidia from a PC gaming standpoint would just be to ignore them. But that's not going to happen as you can see whenever AMD releases a card the first words out of peoples mouths are hoping this will cause nvidia to lower their prices. It's pathetic to the point of watching the fat ugly kid constantly pining after the hot chick who's off with the good looking guys having fun. Console makers aren't like that though. People buy consoles for the games on it and could give a rats ass who made the hardware or what's in it apart from teenage boys arguing on the internet over it. So all it takes is someone like nvidia driving the wrong people at Sony up the wall and causing them headaches and blamo nvidia is out and AMD is in. For an entire hardware generation, if not multiple generations. As if AMD delivers and the people at Sony are happy with it and still remember nvidia screwing them over the next time it comes to design something AMD is already in the door and everyone is still angry with nvidia. This is something Valve got early on. They went with a reliable and easy to deal with partner. Not only that Steam Deck OS is the killer advantage it has over all the competition not the hardware.

Console makers aren't dumb and neither is nvidia. There's no nvidia sticker on the switch because nobody cares. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and allow Nintendo to sell hardware and thus stay in business no what's in the box. Slapping nvidia stickers on Xboxs and Playstations and talking about DLSS, RTX, and all that isn't going to move sales at all and will just generate eyerolls and "keep that PC bullshit out of here please" comments at best. So nvidia can scream all they want "we are the desired brand, just look at the PC gamers" and console makers can howl with laughter and say "our customers aren't that stupid and desperate" and that will be that.

It's not just pathetic, it's also boring. I see this mentality everywhere the last 20 years.
Forget SONY. I don't expect them to jump camp. Watch out for MS.
As for Valve and Steam OS, don't forget that Nvidia is also primarily a SOFTWARE company. Always was. MS also. Those two can build a very good UI for a gaming console.

Consoles like XBOX wouldn't get an Nvidia sticker either, but the reviews and comparisons with the PS6 could be extremely favorable if AMD does an RDNA3 mistake again with RDNA4. AMD made RDNA for gaming, somewhere after RDNA2 they decided to increase compute performance with RDNA3, instead of RayTracing performance for example and ended up losing a generation. I hope their RDNA4 will be an architecture focusing again in gaming, or they will definitely lose one of the consoles.
On Switch you would never see an Nvidia logo for two reasons. Nintendo would NEVER EVER agree to it, the Nvidia SOC is too slow, so even Nvidia wouldn't want it's logo on the Switch. If you have a quick look at tech press, they NEVER review pathetic hardware from Nvidia, either that is in the form of the GTX 1630 or the RX 3050 6GB. Nvidia probably doesn't want it and tech press plays along.

This seems like a direct response to companies like OpenAI muttering about working out deals to design and hire TSMC to fab their own custom silicon.

OpenAL understands (like IBM did with the original PC) that being beholden to a single-source manufacturer for the core of your business is a bad plan, mainly because Nvidia could hold the hardware for ransom and charge exorbitant amounts. Pretty much exactly what they're already doing.

TLDR: Well-funded AI companies will spend literal billions in R&D to not have to deal with Nvidia.

BeermotorTLDR: Well-funded AI companies will spend literal billions in R&D to not have to deal with Nvidia.

This here is the truth. Jensen pandering to them, hey we got custom chips too. MSFT, GOOG, TSLA nah bro you are missing the point, lmao.

The margins on these chips are so massive, won't be surprising if the biggest users start designing their own.

They'll be cheaper and they can get exactly what they want. No middle man.

Like Apple did with their CPUs.

mb194dcThe margins on these chips are so massive, won't be surprising if the biggest users start designing their own.

They'll be cheaper and they can get exactly what they want. No middle man.

Like Apple did with their CPUs.

But until then they need something to cover their needs.

Apple did not pull the M3 SoC out of a hat like some magic trick.

Remember that the first SoC with CPU cores designed in house was the A4 (2010). That means earlier iPhones used more standard Arm core designs. And yet it was still a modified version of the Cortex-A8 design. It would take years before Apple fully designed their own CPU cores.

Same with the graphics cores which for many years were Imagination PowerVR designs. On the GPU side, they transitioned gradually, introducing custom shader cores with the A8 (2014) but still retaining the PowerVR design. It wasn't until the A11 SoC (2017) that Apple ditched PowerVR.

So even a company with their own ASIC design team may take close to ten years to realize an original design from the moment of commitment.

thesmokingmanThis here is the truth. Jensen pandering to them, hey we got custom chips too. MSFT, GOOG, TSLA nah bro you are missing the point, lmao.

Take a look at the Nasdaq 100 list for example. The full list is not ten companies long, it's one hundred companies long. Pharmacy, semiconductor manufacturing and design, IT, retail and a lot more. Each of them with over $20B market cap, and probably already buying boatloads of Nvidia hardware for their supercomputers, which they need for simulations and analyses. But even they can't afford to design their own high performance processors of any kind. Many of those will listen closely if JHH says he can build some customised stuff for them, and offer good support, all at reasonable prices (whatever reasonable means to them).

WirkoTake a look at the Nasdaq 100 list for example. The full list is not ten companies long, it's one hundred companies long. Pharmacy, semiconductor manufacturing and design, IT, retail and a lot more. Each of them with over $20B market cap, and probably already buying boatloads of Nvidia hardware for their supercomputers, which they need for simulations and analyses. But even they can't afford to design their own high performance processors of any kind. Many of those will listen closely if JHH says he can build some customised stuff for them, and offer good support, all at reasonable prices (whatever reasonable means to them).

The point of this is not for custom chips, it's for targeting large customers that already have wafer allocation as Nvidia is production limited. I suspect the customer logo getting lasered on to the die is about as custom as it will get. nvidia will be making even more out of it as they just need to hand over the design and the customer takes all the manufacturing risks with nvidia getting easy money.

OnasiI don’t think skin lotion makes much sense in terms of providing cutting edge graphics, but maybe I’m missing something. Guess cosmetics industry has made some impressive breakthroughs.

I thought that too lmao

Buttery smooth skin and ai rendering

SOAREVERSORThere's a huge catch here that many people on this forum refuse to admit. Consumers aren't actually getting fucked by nvidia. Sure there is some price gouging going on, and yes inflation has a bit to do with it, but that's not the whole story. The core issue is that gamers kept demanding fancier stuff. That's it right there gamers get the blame. Because fancier stuff with better graphics costs more to design, costs more to make, the entire component BOM goes up massively. In other words if you want faster graphics you are asking for graphics card prices to go up. And each time you want that the price goes up again. So really gamers have been voting for higher prices by demanding better graphics. This is the same reason so many AIBs have crashed and burned the cost of making GPUs has skyrocketed massively as they got more complex.

The solution for cheaper stuff is to stop wanting advances in graphics, physics, and all of that so all the new advances could focus on making what can be done now cheaper. But the moment you want something better prices go back up again and no amount of screaming "negreedia!!!! muh g4m1ng PC!!!! Master Race!!!!" is going to change that.

Console makers aren't special snowflakes like PC gamers though. They go into this knowing they are going to take a loss on each unit produced and subsidize the cost to make it all back later through games, fees, and licensing. What they care about is a partner that they can deal with reliably, honestly, and consistently. The moment they get screwed on this they will tell another party to go get fucked and find a new supplier.

Custom chips can mean a lot of things as well. Nvidia isn't just GPUs.

The best "solution" for nvidia from a PC gaming standpoint would just be to ignore them. But that's not going to happen as you can see whenever AMD releases a card the first words out of peoples mouths are hoping this will cause nvidia to lower their prices. It's pathetic to the point of watching the fat ugly kid constantly pining after the hot chick who's off with the good looking guys having fun. Console makers aren't like that though. People buy consoles for the games on it and could give a rats ass who made the hardware or what's in it apart from teenage boys arguing on the internet over it. So all it takes is someone like nvidia driving the wrong people at Sony up the wall and causing them headaches and blamo nvidia is out and AMD is in. For an entire hardware generation, if not multiple generations. As if AMD delivers and the people at Sony are happy with it and still remember nvidia screwing them over the next time it comes to design something AMD is already in the door and everyone is still angry with nvidia. This is something Valve got early on. They went with a reliable and easy to deal with partner. Not only that Steam Deck OS is the killer advantage it has over all the competition not the hardware.

Console makers aren't dumb and neither is nvidia. There's no nvidia sticker on the switch because nobody cares. Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and allow Nintendo to sell hardware and thus stay in business no what's in the box. Slapping nvidia stickers on Xboxs and Playstations and talking about DLSS, RTX, and all that isn't going to move sales at all and will just generate eyerolls and "keep that PC bullshit out of here please" comments at best. So nvidia can scream all they want "we are the desired brand, just look at the PC gamers" and console makers can howl with laughter and say "our customers aren't that stupid and desperate" and that will be that.

Points taken. However, I assert that the majority want "better" graphics, not fancier. I mean we want better performance/cost ratio. We want cooler gpu's, quiter gpu's, more powerful gpu's,cheaper and smaller gpu's. What we got is "fancier" gpu's that cost more,require more power and are 3 times as large as before, and twice as expensive, but they have ray-tracing and AI. I don't blame all gamers, I blame the idiots sucking down Nvidia's bs.

SOAREVERSORconsole makers can howl with laughter and say "our customers aren't that stupid and desperate" and that will be that.

Now that is the boldest claim I think I have ever seen.

www.videogameschronicle.com/news/chipmaker-nvidias-market-value-has-surpassed-amazons/

we are so fucked

scottslayerNow that is the boldest claim I think I have ever seen.

Hes got a hard-on for anti PC gaming, not sure why he is so pissed or what ticked him off. :confused:

I agree with @john_, it's not unreasonable to expect improvements for GPUs.