Tek-CheckThey can release such data now and show it to the public. What's the issue with not releasing data?

Modern business decision making runs on data. Do have any idea how valuable data only you have but everyone wants is? Why on this green earth would they realease it for free? There are only 2 reasons companies release data:

1. It's beneficial for them in some way.
2. It's mandated by law. In this case they'll twist and turn until they manage to make the data look good or no longer have any choice.

Tek-CheckYou also operate in theoretical domain, which doesn't make counter-arguments any more valid.

Certainly. I'm just genereally more experienced, better informed and less prone to echo opinions without understanding them.
I wish you could see your arguments from my perspective. You remind me of myself when I was 12 or so and I'm still bothered by how naive I was 30 years ago.

Tek-CheckThey will try to scare and coerce, but it will not work.

Another facepalm. I'm already getting used to it so I think this one might be the last one. :laugh:

windwhirlLooking at my boss that still hasn't upgraded two machines running Windows 7 and Server 2008 respectively despite being fairly capable of running Windows 10 and whatever the Server equivalent is.

So... you have the people that can't upgrade and the people that don't give two shits about upgrading, with those two circles also overlapping a bit.

We have a bunch of 2008 R2 and 2012 R2 VMs in the upgrade queue since 2020 and my boss is aware of the importance of upgrading them so we'll get to them, some day.
Meanwhile they're running a very good enterprise AV and behind a NAT and a firewall in a datacenter operated by a company with a very good InfoSec team, most of which I've personally met.
We also have backups up to the wazoo, including off-site and off-line and the most critical services have already been moved to Azure so I hope you can see why 4 years later they're still waiting to be upgraded or discontinued most likely. Some day... :D

AGlezBCertainly. I'm just genereally more experienced, better informed and less prone to echo opinions without understanding them.
I wish you could see your arguments from my perspective. You remind me of myself when I was 12 or so and I'm still bothered by how naive I was 30 years ago.

I see those arguments, but I do not agree with them. Microsoft is already having a difficult time educating the public and explaning to people tangible benefits of moving from well-working and stable OS to the new one. The symptom of this is artificial segmentation of some features, such as WiFi 7; a bit of a desperate move.

Tek-CheckI see those arguments, but I do not agree with them. Microsoft is already having a difficult time educating the public and explaning to people tangible benefits of moving from well-working and stable OS to the new one. The symptom of this is artificial segmentation of some features, such as WiFi 7; a bit of a desperate move.

That's all right but complaining on TPU is not going to help. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the concept of planned obsolescence and how the global economy works and then go wage war on social media. Just be aware the whole subject is a can of worms and the most likely result is you'll find yourself in another echo chamber screaming your own ears out and nothing will change.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

AGlezBThat's all right but complaining on TPU is not going to help.

I am not an activist. This is a dedicated section for free exchange of opinions.

AGlezBI suggest you familiarize yourself with the concept of planned obsolescence and how the global economy works and then go wage war on social media.

There is no war. This is a comment section. Suggesting Wikipedia page for a basic concept looks to me like a patronising display of perceived superiority. You could check with me in the first place my level of understanding before making naive suggestions.

AGlezBJust be aware the whole subject is a can of worms and the most likely result is you'll find yourself in another echo chamber screaming your own ears out and nothing will change.

It is Microsoft that will soon need to reconsider their position. It would not be the first time they withdraw or delay a pursuit. I merely observe symptoms that indicate they will have a serious challenge. You may not agree with it, which is fine, but being dismissive does not help your position either.

AGlezBThat's all right but complaining on TPU is not going to help. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the concept of planned obsolescence and how the global economy works and then go wage war on social media. Just be aware the whole subject is a can of worms and the most likely result is you'll find yourself in another echo chamber screaming your own ears out and nothing will change.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Based on my recent experiences, I'd much rather urge people to familiarise themselves with Linux. ;)

AGlezBFor some reason you seem to think it's Microsoft's responsibility to keep supporting old hardware. It's isn't.
It's in the label: Microsoft Corporation, not Microsoft Charity or Microsoft The Good Guys or Microsoft Will Make You Happy.

We all get a kick from blaming megacorps but the fact is software is the same as hardware: it comes with a waranty which says "for this X period of time we'll hear you out if something happens and afterwards you're on your own".

• Can't afford to replace you very obsolete hardware? Not a MS problem.
• Want to use a secure OS in your very obsolete hardware? Not a MS problem. Try Linux.
• Don't want to create more e-waste? Not a MS problem.

The list goes on and you BTW can replace Windows with Android and MS with Google and the result will be exactly the same but with a worse turnaround because most Android devices don't get updates for more than a couple of years.

Microsoft is a corporation, not your friend, so I see no reason to be so dismissive of anti-consumer tactics.
[INDENT]

• MS are the ones deeming hardware to be obsolete with their arbitrary system requirements.
• Microsoft seems to have realized letting millions upon millions of pc's go without security patches is a massive security issue, hence the extended updates. Linux isn't an option for the average user, unless they can get help from someone knowledgeable to help them install Linux and educate them on what apps to use.
• Microsoft has been trying to force people to throw away their perfectly working pc's for new ones because they want licensing and OEM money, so far people don't seem to give a crap or want to keep on using Windows 10. It absolutely is an e-waste problem when a massive corporation tells people to throw away their PC when they don't need to.

[/INDENT]
Google with android isn't the same thing, Google's own phones get 7 years of updates which is a long time for a phone, because of how hard the average user is on their phone, and because companies aren't required to keep replacement parts in stock even if a company claims they care about right to repair. A phone can also be bought on a contract plan and be replaced every few years, I don't expect people to spend $1000 on a pc every few years because MS says its too old to run their OS clogged with ads and telemetry garbage.

Hecate91Microsoft is a corporation, not your friend, so I see no reason to be so dismissive of anti-consumer tactics.

Precisely. Microsoft attempted to roll out Recall (a privacy nightmare tool...) by default, without even asking users to opt-in voluntarily. How arrogant.
We saw the outcry in tech community, but especially from governmental civil servants and various institutions. They must have received one significant call telling them: "Hey, you can't do this. Make it opt-in, and make it without delay"...

They have been trying to push onto us a myriad of features and tools without deeper reflection and regard to consumer interest. They are often laughably petty and unprofessional, e.g. they block the access to WiFi 7 on Windows 10. It's a moronic pettiness not to allow users to spend more money and install faster WiFi. How selfish a corporation needs to be to make such move, not allow other vendors selling those WiFi 7 chips to earn money and users to enjoy the new standard?

Those dubious actions of MS and other reasons almost force us to be constantly vigilant, which is the state of alertness no one enjoys being in for longer.

Tek-CheckPrecisely. Microsoft attempted to roll out Recall (a privacy nightmare tool...) by default, without even asking users to opt-in voluntarily. How arrogant.
We saw the outcry in tech community, but especially from governmental civil servants and various institutions. They must have received one significant call telling them: "Hey, you can't do this. Make it opt-in, and make it without delay"...

They have been trying to push onto us a myriad of features and tools without deeper reflection and regard to consumer interest. They are often laughably petty and unprofessional, e.g. they block the access to WiFi 7 on Windows 10. It's a moronic pettiness not to allow users to spend more money and install faster WiFi. How selfish a corporation needs to be to make such move, not allow other vendors selling those WiFi 7 chips to earn money and users to enjoy the new standard?

Those dubious actions of MS and other reasons almost force us to be constantly vigilant, which is the state of alertness no one enjoys being in for longer.

Even Windows 10 forcibly installed Copilot onto my PC without ever asking me if I wanted it or not. That's when I wiped my drive and installed Linux.

I'm not here to do what my OS wants me to do - it's the other way around. If Microsoft finds this simple thing too hard to understand, then that's it, bye bye.

Windows sucks. On Saturday I went into Outlook. I have 2 Hotmail accounts and MS told me that my One drive storage on 1 drive was over the 5 GB limit. I went on to delete all of my emails (After a backup of course) and it still would not allow emails. MS wanted me to pay at least $2 a month to access email that would remove that. There was no option to not do that. I have more than 1 PC though. So I loaded up my laptop and was able to delete the One Drive files. The crazy thing is I have always disabled One Drive. What I saw were things like MS AMD driver and such. Just imagine the users out there that have one PC and are dealing with this foolishness.

kapone32Windows sucks. On Saturday I went into Outlook. I have 2 Hotmail accounts and MS told me that my One drive storage on 1 drive was over the 5 GB limit. I went on to delete all of my emails (After a backup of course) and it still would not allow emails. MS wanted me to pay at least $2 a month to access email that would remove that. There was no option to not do that. I have more than 1 PC though. So I loaded up my laptop and was able to delete the One Drive files. The crazy thing is I have always disabled One Drive. What I saw were things like MS AMD driver and such. Just imagine the users out there that have one PC and are dealing with this foolishness.

Oh let's not get started on the hot mess that is Hotmail (Outlook) starting from how much pain you have to go through just to switch between your work and personal accounts, through the abysmal calendar, all the way to minor things like getting an inbox notification every time you send an email to a group that you're a part of yourself without the ability to mark it 'read' just by clicking on it.

I'm so glad I've got rid of at least part of this mess on an OS level (I still rely on Outlook for work, unfortunately).

AusWolfBased on my recent experiences, I'd much rather urge people to familiarise themselves with Linux. ;)

Plenty of apps that i use which will not work on Linux, so that's not gonna happen, not to mention my Soundcard.

Get a dac then.. why you still using a soundcard? And what apps? If you set up wine properly, you should be able to run most of them. I guess that's why most people like windows... the hand holding.
I get that. But don't say linux can't run a bunch of stuff if you've never tried. It will. And if you insist on using windows, then win11 iot enterprise is the way to go. It's far less bloated, and much faster than win10 even I've found. Pick your poison. But don't blame an os if you aren't even willing to learn it.

TheDeeGeePlenty of apps that i use which will not work on Linux, so that's not gonna happen, not to mention my Soundcard.

That's understandable. This is why I'm a promoter of open source and open hardware standards, but I know not everything is like that, unfortunately.

Edit: I have to mention that I didn't commit to make the swap for a good couple of years despite thinking about it because I thought my games wouldn't run on Linux. Oh boy, was I wrong!

TheDeeGeePlenty of apps that i use which will not work on Linux, so that's not gonna happen, not to mention my Soundcard.

johnspackAnd what apps? If you set up wine properly, you should be able to run most of them

For the apps that you can't get working in Wine dual boot might be an option.

DraconisFor the apps that you can't get working in Wine dual boot might be an option.

Fortnite has no Linux support, nor does reWASD and i highly doubt my Soundcard will work.

Dual Boot seems very counter intuitive, it would be either fully Linux or forget it.

I'm a plug and play person, and Linux clearly isn't that and won't be for decades to come.

The ESU program has existed for a while so I was wondering why offer it to home users now. I don't buy the user pressure argument and companies have had access to the program since Win 7 at least.
I think the answer is very simple: billing. Here is a timeline:

• 2009 - Win 7
• 2011 - Office 365 (companies only)
• 2014 - First Office 365 personal SKU (based on Office 2013)
• 2015 - Win 7 EOL and start of ESU
• 2016 - Microsoft Pay
• 2015 - Win 10
• 2021 - Win 11
• 2025 - Win 10 EOL and start of ESU

Microsoft has had their billing infrastructure for enterprise/education in place since the begining but it wasn't until 2011 that they implemented a SaaS suscription for companies and 2014 for home users and they didn't become a payment processor until 2016, after Win 7 had entered EOL. They probably didn't have enough time to implement a home user ESU program for Win 7 and before 2016 they would have required the services of a third party payment processor, cutting into the profits. As of 2024 they've been selling suscription services to home users for a decade so everything is in place for Win 10 ESU to be sold in the home market as well.

In other words this is the first OS EOL since MS started handling money from regular people, but those unfamiliar with billing probably won't understand what I'm talking about. :wtf:
Here is the short version: billing internationally is hard.

Opening a web site, typing your credit card number and buying whatever you want is a very simple process for the user. Behind the scenes is a trillion USD industry so complicated that is easier for e-commerces to just offer as payment options the services of third party payment processors like Microsoft Pay, Google Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal, etc. Even when paying with credit cards the payment processing is usually handled by a 3rd party. Every country in the world has it's own laws, regulation, taxation, etc. and compliying with all of the is so freaking hard that sometimes they just give up and you'll see a message like "Xxxx Pay is not available in your location". That is also the reason why there are so few widely available international payment processors despite being a very lucrative market and to give you an idea of how lucrative here is an example from PayPal:


Payment processors usually charge a flat fee plus a percentage of the total value of each transaction and the cost increases for international transactions and also depending on the type of currency and currency conversions. According to companiesmarketcap.com PayPal is the "228th most valuable company by market cap" in the world and that should put the value of payment processing in perspective.

In the end I could be totally wrong, obviously, but I don't think I am. :D

TheDeeGeeDual Boot seems very counter intuitive, it would be either fully Linux or forget it.

Fair enough, each to their own. I did specifically use might not is, on purpose.

My windows 10 machines are quit literally as quiet and respectful as my windows vista and 7 machines. No forced updates any BS shenanigan's behind my back, every packet is meticulously monitored with a firewall to stop the dozens of services in the OS and some 3 dozen apps doing things behind my back. Even without the firewall its pretty quiet and nothing comes back after being nuked. I would never tolerate forced updates and accounts and stuff, its either old school windows or GTFO. Thats why Windows 11 is dead to me, its just too far gone with enshitification its disgusting.
The good news is, as far as I can tell, Linux can handle music, open source photography, movies, the basics etc. Im not gonna waste time with Linux just yet as by the time i have to move from windows 10, the landscape will be very different. I see the future being ultra minimalist and problem free of all this strings-attached BS. Just a powerful laptop and a big 8K OLED screen with the Playstation 6.