Monday, September 24th 2018

Linux Community Hit by the Blight of Social Justice Warfare, A Great Purge is Coming

Through the 1990s, Microsoft had become a super-corporation threatening to monopolize all of computing. A band of talented developers got together with lawyers that could fish out loopholes in proprietary licenses, and with some generosity from big software, Linux grew from a scrappy Unix-like OS kernel to the preeminent operating system for enterprises at first, and handheld consumer electronics later. Today it's most popular operating system on the planet. Like every big organization, the Linux Foundation is hit by employee-activism.

Employee-activism is the new unionism. Whereas trade-unions of the old fought for tangible bread-and-butter issues affecting blue-collar folk of the early Industrial era, today's employee-activist is an intellectual predator seeking to maximize their organizational footprint on the backs of other people echoing their political ideas, often through blatant insubordination and disregard for the chain of command. Survival of the fittest has changed to "survival of the loudest." From forcing Linus Torvalds to apologize for speaking his mind in public, to coming up with a new Code of Conduct document, social-justice activism within the Linux Foundation threatens to devolve the culture of meritocracy to a toxic "safe space" prioritizing inclusion of identity rather than skill, as HardOCP comments. A major blow-back from the meritocrats is taking shape.

In a major revision to the license, software developers contributing to the Linux kernel source-code will soon be able to withdraw their contribution, if they are ever cornered by the rest of the community over perceived code-of-conduct violation (i.e. not pandering to identity politics or speaking their minds like Torvalds does). This is big, as many of the older generations of contributors who have made critical contributions without with Linux cannot function, now have a legal recourse, and could reduce the amount of political activism within the community.

Since 2015, identity politicians have been trying to force the Linux Foundation to join the Contributor Covenant, a special Code-of-Conduct agreement that seeks to change the "the predominantly white, straight, and male face of programming." On September 16, the Foundation agreed to implement CC Code of Conduct. Shortly following that, groups of pro-CC developers went on a character-assassination spree of top Linux developers by amplifying and often distorting, their political views (which are irrelevant to the task of programming).
Sources: Lulz, HardOCP
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653 Comments on Linux Community Hit by the Blight of Social Justice Warfare, A Great Purge is Coming

#276
moproblems99
I'll be honest. I am not the slightest bit emotional. I don't give two monkey fucks if a rabbit, gorilla, zebra, and two giraffes collaborated to make my software. I want the shit to work. Fuck all who made it.
Posted on Reply
#277
R-T-B
moproblems99I'll be honest. I am not the slightest bit emotional. I don't give two monkey fucks if a rabbit, gorilla, zebra, and two giraffes collaborated to make my software. I want the shit to work. Fuck all who made it.
Meh, human cost is cost. But wasn't referring to you anyways.

I'm more concerned with what this kind of discussion is doing to the community though. That is certainly real.
Posted on Reply
#278
R0H1T
moproblems99I'll be honest. I am not the slightest bit emotional. I don't give two monkey fucks if a rabbit, gorilla, zebra, and two giraffes collaborated to make my software. I want the shit to work. Fuck all who made it.
Yeah, but the assumption from (too) many of the comments in this thread sounds like xyz community was disrespected>Linus made to apologize>he quits because he can't take on SJW :wtf:

So, no one ever thought that being the "leader" he should be a bit more polite or is politeness a vice these days? Why is it that "leaders" can't be better people, or does "doing your job" is the only thing we look for, in them? Looking at the theme in this thread, it sounds like discrimination in the (real) world isn't a thing or Linux (community) isn't a part of the world.

Lastly, as some have pointed out, this "article" is very biased given the click bait headline & speculative content. While arguments can be made for "both sides" being an a** should never be tolerated just because you get the job done!

I've leave this here, applies perfectly to the world we live in ~
We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do.
Posted on Reply
#279
Valantar
lexluthermiesterIncorrect. I intend and do require people to behave with a level of sensible and professional methodologies based on logic, merit and reason, not feelings and political correctness.
People are not machines, and do not live in entirely professional worlds. Professional environments are also interpersonal ones, and a lack of respect in one is bound to bleed over to the other, no matter how much the members of this society claim to be "objective" and "neutral". And even if it doesn't, are you really arguing that it's okay for the people you work with to threat you like garbage as long as they respect your work product? If I were ever in a situation like that, I would remove myself from it as fast as I could, though if I had sufficient love for the institution in question I'd likely try to make it into a better environment instead.

You're arguing as if being assholes to each other is a requirement for making good code, as you seem to see it as an impossibility for this to continue if people are no longer given leave to be assholes. Given how far out there a claim like that is, the burden of proof is on you here, not the people who want a respectful work environment.
lexluthermiesterMy life's experiences have taught that the world is a tough place. Empathy does not change reality.
That is simply not true. Treating people with respect and empathizing with their situation can very much lead to changing reality, as you might recognize things as problematic which you previously hadn't thought were, and thus work to change them. Or, in a smaller scale, it might lead to you treating people with more respect, which might change their reality.
lexluthermiesterReally? That's what you took from my comments? You don't have a reasonable response to those comments so you feel the need to take shots at me personally? @R-T-B What was that about being toxic? Because this is what I was referring to about maturity.
I'm sorry if you read that as a personal attack, it really wasn't meant as such. It is how you come off from your posts, yes. You claim that people suffering discrimination should "suck it up", that what they're experiencing isn't real, and that they're out to ruin the things they want to improve upon. You keep using the term "SJW" as a slur; you call people "snowflakes", you make it very clear that you look down on people with experiences that differ from yours, and you refuse to budge whatsoever in your stance that if someone experiences mistreatment, they ought to just shut up about it. I'd say what I said was a pretty concise analysis of that.
lexluthermiesterOr maybe it was a little too subtle?
That post was about as subtle as opening your front door with a sledgehammer instead of a key. If it was an attempt at metaphorical transfer, it was both poorly executed and poorly thought out, as it took things far too literally for that to work, and entirely failed to account for the differences in the fields in question. As a metaphor, it didn't work, and as a non-metaphoric statement, it was blatantly anti-scientific.
lexluthermiesterThis whole nonsense boils down to this; Entitled whiny SJW's want to replace their interpretation of existing discrimination with a newer more "progressive" form of same so that they can silence those people who they feel offend them, regardless of merit and qualifications.
Again: not wanting to be discriminated against apparently makes you entitled. Or, you know, just maybe they're actually being treated unfairly? Again: you actively refuse to accept that people with bad experiences actually should have the right to make their environment better. And if you see "be nice to people" as discriminatory, then you need to take a good look at what it is you value in interacting with other people. Being in an environment with other people requires you to (to a certain degree) adhere to its norms and social conventions. From what you're saying, it sounds like you see it as discriminatory if people aren't allowed to discriminate against others, which is a logical fallacy of the finest sort.
FordGT90ConceptSo...digging through some (a lot) older stuff, the rabbit hole goes deep. Specifically, Sarah Sharp resigning back in 2015, there's a relevant quote buried in there:
sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/

More recent history:
itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/

It's more important that you be a good person (by SJW definition) than make good contributions (the former hasn't contributed in three years; the latter hasn't ever contributed), according to them both. Linux didn't get where it is today by being made by a polite society.

TL;DR:
1) Torvalds was feeling retrospective and guilty (haven't been able to figure out why but something leading up to the September 16 announcement).
2) Linux Foundation reached for the absolute worst document they could find to replace the Code of Conflict. 3) Torvalds went public with the change, an apology, and a vacation.
4) Here lies the aftermath of a shortsighted decision.
There are some clear inconsistencies in your analysis here. First off: there's no evidence in what you've presented here that these people find being a good person more important than being good at coding; all they're saying is that it's also important. This, frankly, is indisputable in any environment that includes multiple people.

Secondly: there's no evidence that interpersonal conflict is good for project development. I've worked a bit with group psychology in professional settings, and conflict is generally found to be the antithesis to productivity. Critique is entirely possible without being an ass; if you have to be an ass to critique someone, it's better to rethink what you want to say.
FordGT90ConceptLinux didn't get where it is today by being made by a polite society.
That might very well be (though I'd say it's likely you're attributing too much of its quality to a single aspect of the culture), but does that mean that making it a "polite society" precludes further productivity?

I'd propose a more moderate reading: that the culture of Linux development has grown from a tiny insular group to a global professional environment, and while a semi-combative "criticism whatever the cost" policy might have worked in the initial phase (when most or all of those involved accepted this) the expansion of the field has necessitated a change to more universally applicable social norms as the breadth of experience of the people involved has expanded, and the dynamics of the first system has been shown to include noticeable bias.

To flip your argument around a bit: shouldn't a contributor's output be judged by their ability to produce good code, and not their ability to produce good code while being pelted with expletives?
Posted on Reply
#280
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
ValantarThere are some clear inconsistencies in your analysis here. First off: there's no evidence in what you've presented here that these people find being a good person more important than being good at coding; all they're saying is that it's also important. This, frankly, is indisputable in any environment that includes multiple people.

Secondly: there's no evidence that interpersonal conflict is good for project development. I've worked a bit with group psychology in professional settings, and conflict is generally found to be the antithesis to productivity. Critique is entirely possible without being an ass; if you have to be an ass to critique someone, it's better to rethink what you want to say.
Except the part where Linux is over 25 years old, things have been done pretty much the same since the beginning, and it is installed on more devices than any other on the planet. Clearly they did something right and the outcry that this change triggered is perceived as something very, very wrong. Linux development was never a "professional setting" and it really never had an intent to be a "professional setting." Even if it did, adopting a SJW's guide to bullying bullies is never the path towards professionalism.
ValantarI'd propose a more moderate reading: that the culture of Linux development has grown from a tiny insular group to a global professional environment...
Then maybe a fork is truly necessary. There's plenty of other corporate distros out there. Linux becoming one can easily be viewed as part of the problem.
ValantarTo flip your argument around a bit: shouldn't a contributor's output be judged by their ability to produce good code, and not their ability to produce good code while being pelted with expletives?
Good code speaks for itself. I've never said that Torvalds losing it is okay. Looking to SJWs for a solution is dousing a fire with gasoline.
Posted on Reply
#281
Vayra86
ValantarThat's quite a fatalist view. If people are socialized into believing that cut-throat competition is acceptable (or even lauded!) in the workplace, they'll do that. If they learn differently, chances are they'll act differently. Humans are immensely adaptable beings. Even low-level behaviour like the urge to compete and win can be moderated/changed over time with the right stimuli.

@lexluthermiester @FordGT90Concept Both of you seem to take as the basis of your argument that this was already a perfect meritocracy with no inherent bias whatsoever. That is quite a claim, really, given that this is a social system created by humans. We carry our biases wherever we go, and it's been clearly demonstrated that our (conscious, subconscious or unconscious) biases are carried over and embedded into the systems we create - including "non-social" products like code. Given that the core of this is the established system was criticized for being biased, the reasonable approach would be to say "okay, how can we bring this closer to being an actual meritocracy", and work towards that. Instead, people are up in arms about this somehow being a coup and that every single person who has ever written Linux code and been rude to someone is going to get booted out, rendering Linux inoperable. This is a defensive, knee-jerk reaction signifying either a lack of perspective, reflection and understanding, or simply a sign of not wanting the current system to change, no matter its flaws. If the former is true, the people involved need to work on themselves, and if the latter is true, they need to stop being hypocrites and claiming this to be a meritocracy.

Anyone claiming to be a part of a meritocratic system should be very invested in ensuring that the system is actually meritocratic. This includes checking your own privilege, investigating the power structures established, and acting both personally and outwardly to counter any imbalances. And last, but not least, this involves looking into the foundations of what we define as merit, and the social power dynamics that lie behind this. A clear-cut, easy to understand example is how (on average) aggressive, loud, overly competitive men are generally successful, lauded for their behaviour, while women behaving in exactly the same way are seen as "bossy", "domineering" or "bitchy". The same goes for work product and employment history - there have been several scientific inquiries looking into how resumes or ideas presented in the workplace are both judged very differently if the name attached to it comes off as male or female. This even carries over to anonymous platforms, especially ones where people have fixed user names, as those are themselves read as gendered if possible. The point: for a meritocracy to be even remotely possible, it requires continuous critical investigations of its foundations to ever actually reach that status.
I know its a fatalist view. And yet it is true. Look around. You can make things great temporarily, you can indeed provide the right stimuli to make people do well for and with each other... and when those stimuli are gone and they enter the real world that is not 'protected' by a Code of sorts, there will be tons of stimuli to do the exact opposite. I think the truth is that the world isn't nice and that you cannot expect there to be some sort of higher management that will make sure you never get offended or never have to dig deep to keep your sanity.

The world simply isn't nice. On a small scale and in select groups yes, we can behave. Outside of it, and when it doesn't directly harm us, we are much more likely not to behave. Ironically we've built a society that actually promotes not behaving and not being nice in many ways, just as well as it promotes being nice. We (can) benefit directly from damaging another and I doubt that will ever change.

Evolution explains our behaviour in society and groups of people as a survival instinct and that is exactly what it is. To survive in certain professional environments, you can only benefit from collaboration and keeping things positive, which is why we do it. In other (work) environments, being nice will get you screwed over so we toughen up instead. I'm not saying I'd not rather see things work differently, but it is what it is.
FordGT90ConceptMy hope is that when Torvalds returns, or even as part of the Mantainership Summit, they adopt a new conduct code that's apolitical (perhaps KDE's Community Code of Conduct).
Yeah or perhaps just stick with what they had because that was as apolitical and pure as it gets, and should be.
Posted on Reply
#282
Valantar
FordGT90ConceptExcept the part where Linux is over 25 years old, things have been done pretty much the same since the beginning, and it is installed on more devices than any other on the planet. Clearly they did something right and the outcry that this change triggered is perceived as something very, very wrong. Linux development was never a "professional setting" and it really never had an intent to be a "professional setting." Even if it did, adopting a SJW's guide to bullying bullies is never the path towards professionalism.
Since when is "we've been doing it this way from the start!" a valid argument for maintaining a problematic practice when it's demonstrated to be problematic? Just because the problems were smaller or didn't come to light earlier doesn't mean that they didn't exist, and previous productivity under problematic conditions is not a valid argument against mitigating those problems. In fact, if history (and science) teaches us anything, it is that productivity and quality of work improves when working conditions improve.

Of course, an argument could then be made that enforcing "being nice to people" might be seen as enforcing worse working conditions for some. That's where dialogue, compromise and understanding comes in in creating a workable solution. However, there is something to be said about a fundamental lack of understanding of social dynamics in claiming that you need to be allowed to be an asshole to be productive or write good code. I'm not saying that you're making this argument, but it sure sounds like some people are. In which case they really ought to start looking into where their own personal freedom intersects with other people's.
FordGT90ConceptThen maybe a fork is truly necessary. There's plenty of other corporate distros out there. Linux becoming one can easily be viewed as part of the problem.
If the argument for Linux's value lies in its use in servers around the world (as quite a few people here have stated), it is intrinsically and inseparably bound to business and organizational life (whether that be corporations, governments, or idealist organizations). The only fork that would make sense then is one only licensed for individual/personal use, which I would guess would relegate it to obsolescence rather quickly.
FordGT90ConceptGood code speaks for itself. I've never said that Torvalds losing it is okay. Looking to SJWs for a solution is dousing a fire with gasoline.
But the basic conditions of producing good code include a healthy community - isn't that the entire point of open-source software, to foster sharing and cooperation, and build on each others' work? No code is created in a vacuum, and particularly not open-source code. If the community has bias or discrimination issues, they undermine the possibility of producing good code within certain portions of it, and as such, the community lacks even the most basic foundation for having a functioning/actual meritocracy. Otherwise you're just presenting an unreasonable definition of merit, where it for some reason includes the ability to tolerate abuse - which, as far as I know, has bears no relation to coding.

Looking to outspoken members of groups that have experienced discrimination is the only real option for fighting discrimination, as they are the only ones with the relevant experience to document and describe its forms and ways of working. There is no "neutral" or "objective" way of understanding discrimination, as it is wholly dependent on the experience of the person subjected to it (which is why it is entirely possible to act in a discriminatory way without intending to do so - which is also why accepting apologies and giving people the opportunity to improve is a fundamental requirement in cases involving this, though that also depends on the severity of the discrimination). Policy based on experience is of course only a start, and going this route can some times lead to going too far, but institutional power resisting change is more than sufficient of a check to this for it not to be a real concern, no matter how fond people are of showing off the few cases where it does go wrong. It works out well far more often than not.
Vayra86I know its a fatalist view. And yet it is true. Look around. You can make things great temporarily, you can indeed provide the right stimuli to make people do well for and with each other... and when those stimuli are gone and they enter the real world that is not 'protected' by a Code of sorts, there will be tons of stimuli to do the exact opposite. I think the truth is that the world isn't nice and that you cannot expect there to be some sort of higher management that will make sure you never get offended or never have to dig deep to keep your sanity.

The world simply isn't nice. On a small scale and in select groups yes, we can behave. Outside of it, and when it doesn't directly harm us, we are much more likely not to behave. Ironically we've built a society that actually promotes not behaving and not being nice in many ways, just as well as it promotes being nice. We (can) benefit directly from damaging another and I doubt that will ever change.

Evolution explains our behaviour in society and groups of people as a survival instinct and that is exactly what it is. To survive in certain professional environments, you can only benefit from collaboration and keeping things positive, which is why we do it. In other (work) environments, being nice will get you screwed over so we toughen up instead. I'm not saying I'd not rather see things work differently, but it is what it is.
Evolution is a very poor method of explaining the extreme complexities of human behaviour (no matter how fond fans of evolutionary psychology are of saying that it does that job well). Social behaviour is (largely) determined by our brains (though also our bodies and the senses they provide for us to interface with the world), and our brains are almost entirely shaped by external stimuli. Of course genetics creates a base (our brains don't grow new parts due to stimuli, but the size and importance of the parts in processing information changes dramatically), and genetic differences create variations in that base, but socialization and upbringing can account for the vast majority of our behaviour far better than evolution can. In particular, the best theories drawn from evolution can do is provide broad, generalized explanations for behaviour, while theories based on socialization go far deeper, and provide a far clearer and more accurate picture.

The problem with communicating this is that our brains are wired (hah) to make us perceive the world as stable, which makes us see the status quo and the prevailing culture as "natural" and "neutral" (and often "objective") when this is demonstrably untrue. Culture is constantly in flux everywhere, and is always evolving. The changes are just often too subtle to see from an individual point of view over a short span of time. Our current Western culture is far more individualist than previously (even as little as 20-30 years back), which might reasonably be said to foster competitiveness, a lack of empathy, and even outright hostility. Capitalist society (the values of which have also gained significant traction even in the Western wold in recent decades) also reinforces the idea that competition (and by extension a rather extreme version of hierarchical society) is a "natural" and unavoidable state, which non-capitalist societies throughout history have shown isn't necessarily true.

While it's rather Utopian to think of a world where no competition, hierarchy or hostility exists, it is entirely possible to work towards creating a society where this is less apparent, where competition isn't promoted as an ideal state, where individualism is balanced with communal responsibility, where social hierarchies are of lower importance, and where people's default approach to others is to treat them with respect regardless of their origin or status. And, given the transmissibility of ideas and state of culture as always in flux, any significant work towards this will necessarily also move culture in this direction (barring active resistance from reactionary groups, of course). This isn't impossible at all - it's just slow, and complex, and too large a task to meaningfully approach for any individual or organization. But that doesn't mean that trying is meaningless or ineffective. An easy example: Western societies are far less violent today than historically, even comparing with recent decades. We have gradually moved towards fighting less, being less violent, and generally viewing violence as an unacceptable solution to personal differences, in a way that is far too subtle for people in general to be aware of (heck, thanks to commercialized news most people believe their world to be more violent, despite the opposite being true). The point being: the cultural status quo isn't "natural". It's cultural. And thus entirely changeable.
Vayra86Yeah or perhaps just stick with what they had because that was as apolitical and pure as it gets, and should be.
There's no such thing as apolitical. "Leaving politics out" is nothing more than saying "we accept the current politics as they stand and have no interest in identifying them or investigating if they're ideal for what we're doing". This is a blatantly counterproductive attitude.
Posted on Reply
#283
Vayra86
ValantarSince when is "we've been doing it this way from the start!" a valid argument for maintaining a problematic practice when it's demonstrated to be problematic? Just because the problems were smaller or didn't come to light earlier doesn't mean that they didn't exist, and previous productivity under problematic conditions is not a valid argument against mitigating those problems. In fact, if history (and science) teaches us anything, it is that productivity and quality of work improves when working conditions improve.

Of course, an argument could then be made that enforcing "being nice to people" might be seen as enforcing worse working conditions for some. That's where dialogue, compromise and understanding comes in in creating a workable solution. However, there is something to be said about a fundamental lack of understanding of social dynamics in claiming that you need to be allowed to be an asshole to be productive or write good code. I'm not saying that you're making this argument, but it sure sounds like some people are. In which case they really ought to start looking into where their own personal freedom intersects with other people's.


If the argument for Linux's value lies in its use in servers around the world (as quite a few people here have stated), it is intrinsically and inseparably bound to business and organizational life (whether that be corporations, governments, or idealist organizations). The only fork that would make sense then is one only licensed for individual/personal use, which I would guess would relegate it to obsolescence rather quickly.


But the basic conditions of producing good code include a healthy community - isn't that the entire point of open-source software, to foster sharing and cooperation, and build on each others' work? No code is created in a vacuum, and particularly not open-source code. If the community has bias or discrimination issues, they undermine the possibility of producing good code within certain portions of it, and as such, the community lacks even the most basic foundation for having a functioning/actual meritocracy. Otherwise you're just presenting an unreasonable definition of merit, where it for some reason includes the ability to tolerate abuse - which, as far as I know, has bears no relation to coding.

Looking to outspoken members of groups that have experienced discrimination is the only real option for fighting discrimination, as they are the only ones with the relevant experience to document and describe its forms and ways of working. There is no "neutral" or "objective" way of understanding discrimination, as it is wholly dependent on the experience of the person subjected to it (which is why it is entirely possible to act in a discriminatory way without intending to do so - which is also why accepting apologies and giving people the opportunity to improve is a fundamental requirement in cases involving this, though that also depends on the severity of the discrimination). Policy based on experience is of course only a start, and going this route can some times lead to going too far, but institutional power resisting change is more than sufficient of a check to this for it not to be a real concern, no matter how fond people are of showing off the few cases where it does go wrong. It works out well far more often than not.


Evolution is a very poor method of explaining the extreme complexities of human behaviour (no matter how fond fans of evolutionary psychology are of saying that it does that job well). Social behaviour is (largely) determined by our brains (though also our bodies and the senses they provide for us to interface with the world), and our brains are almost entirely shaped by external stimuli. Of course genetics creates a base (our brains don't grow new parts due to stimuli, but the size and importance of the parts in processing information changes dramatically), and genetic differences create variations in that base, but socialization and upbringing can account for the vast majority of our behaviour far better than evolution can. In particular, the best theories drawn from evolution can do is provide broad, generalized explanations for behaviour, while theories based on socialization go far deeper, and provide a far clearer and more accurate picture.

The problem with communicating this is that our brains are wired (hah) to make us perceive the world as stable, which makes us see the status quo and the prevailing culture as "natural" and "neutral" (and often "objective") when this is demonstrably untrue. Culture is constantly in flux everywhere, and is always evolving. The changes are just often too subtle to see from an individual point of view over a short span of time. Our current Western culture is far more individualist than previously (even as little as 20-30 years back), which might reasonably be said to foster competitiveness, a lack of empathy, and even outright hostility. Capitalist society (the values of which have also gained significant traction even in the Western wold in recent decades) also reinforces the idea that competition (and by extension a rather extreme version of hierarchical society) is a "natural" and unavoidable state, which non-capitalist societies throughout history have shown isn't necessarily true.

While it's rather Utopian to think of a world where no competition, hierarchy or hostility exists, it is entirely possible to work towards creating a society where this is less apparent, where competition isn't promoted as an ideal state, where individualism is balanced with communal responsibility, where social hierarchies are of lower importance, and where people's default approach to others is to treat them with respect regardless of their origin or status. And, given the transmissibility of ideas and state of culture as always in flux, any significant work towards this will necessarily also move culture in this direction (barring active resistance from reactionary groups, of course). This isn't impossible at all - it's just slow, and complex, and too large a task to meaningfully approach for any individual or organization. But that doesn't mean that trying is meaningless or ineffective. An easy example: Western societies are far less violent today than historically, even comparing with recent decades. We have gradually moved towards fighting less, being less violent, and generally viewing violence as an unacceptable solution to personal differences, in a way that is far too subtle for people in general to be aware of (heck, thanks to commercialized news most people believe their world to be more violent, despite the opposite being true). The point being: the cultural status quo isn't "natural". It's cultural. And thus entirely changeable.


There's no such thing as apolitical. "Leaving politics out" is nothing more than saying "we accept the current politics as they stand and have no interest in identifying them or investigating if they're ideal for what we're doing". This is a blatantly counterproductive attitude.
You're not really disagreeing with me, just wording it differently, and you still think the world and people will truly change when we actually do make changes to society. Competitiveness however is an evolutionary trait and it is what drives us to excel. If we cannot compare our achievements to others we lose a vital motivator to get things done. Our entire economy is based on competition, and principles like preference drift and reference drift are fundamental to it and founded upon these evolutionary traits. What I'm seeing is not a whole lot of change though. Across several millennia, essentially we are still struggling with each other for influence, power, wealth and prosperity. When it comes to warfare and conflict, all that really changes is how we go about it. When it comes to the workplace and hierarchy, we just find more politically correct vehicles to carry the same principles of 'do as you are told' and 'get the job done'.

It requires taking a big step back from the world you live in to see the similarities. Yes things change, but every new reality is still based upon those same human traits that have existed since we discovered fire. We are still fár away from real change, and real change in our approach to each other requires a new, bigger purpose for humanity. Such as avoiding mass extinction, or the idea of expanding beyond Earth. Those are milestones big enough to create a different drive than what we are doing now: endlessly dividing and rearranging the same plots of land and ideas of society.
Posted on Reply
#284
lexluthermiester
ValantarPeople are not machines, and do not live in entirely professional worlds. Professional environments are also interpersonal ones, and a lack of respect in one is bound to bleed over to the other, no matter how much the members of this society claim to be "objective" and "neutral". And even if it doesn't, are you really arguing that it's okay for the people you work with to threat you like garbage as long as they respect your work product? If I were ever in a situation like that, I would remove myself from it as fast as I could, though if I had sufficient love for the institution in question I'd likely try to make it into a better environment instead.

You're arguing as if being assholes to each other is a requirement for making good code, as you seem to see it as an impossibility for this to continue if people are no longer given leave to be assholes. Given how far out there a claim like that is, the burden of proof is on you here, not the people who want a respectful work environment.
You seem to be taking things I'm stating way out of context. Of course I'm not arguing that being an "a-hole" is required. However, some people are jerks. They can't help it and they're never not going to be that way. So what are we going to do? Fire them? We start doing that we'll have to fire a solid 25% of the worlds best people. Whether or not someone is unpleasant or difficult to work with is irrelevant to how valuable they are. This is why decisions need always be based on merit. "Feelings" and "political correctness" are not appropriate in the professional environment. It would be nice if we all could make the working world all "Roses & rainbows" for everyone, but that's not realistic.
ValantarThat is simply not true. Treating people with respect and empathizing with their situation can very much lead to changing reality, as you might recognize things as problematic which you previously hadn't thought were, and thus work to change them. Or, in a smaller scale, it might lead to you treating people with more respect, which might change their reality.
You seem to have the term "respect" mixed up with the words "compassion" and "kindness". While they are not mutually exclusive, they are not mutually inclusive either.
ValantarI'm sorry if you read that as a personal attack, it really wasn't meant as such.
It did seem that way, but let's let it go.
ValantarIt is how you come off from your posts, yes. You claim that people suffering discrimination should "suck it up"
Correct. There are many forms of discrimination. Most of them not only lawful but logical. You don't hire a farmer to fly a space shuttle do you? Merit.
Valantarthat what they're experiencing isn't real
Incorrect. I know full well that they are and what it feels like. Everyone does because it's happened to everyone. Are we going to change the rules of the world so that everyone who thinks(likely correctly) that they've been discriminated against in some way a avenue to force a change to accommodate their feelings of inclusiveness? Or does it make more sense to base every decision on merit?
Valantarand that they're out to ruin the things they want to improve upon.
If they're vision of an improvement is not compatible with the vision/scope of whatever they're working on or the views of the employer, then it is possible that such would be harmful. Again, merit.
ValantarYou keep using the term "SJW" as a slur; you call people "snowflakes"
I call things as they are presented. If someone's behavior merits a particular description or "label"..
Valantaryou make it very clear that you look down on people with experiences that differ from yours
Incorrect. I look down on people who create problems because they got their feelings hurt. So yes, as you said, "suck it up".
Valantarand you refuse to budge whatsoever in your stance that if someone experiences mistreatment, they ought to just shut up about it.
That depends on perception and the form of mistreatment. Just because someone perceives mistreatment doesn't actually make it so. Examination of the facts will reveal such. And if a form of discrimination is discovered, was it logical and appropriate? Again, merit.
ValantarThat post was about as subtle as opening your front door with a sledgehammer instead of a key. If it was an attempt at metaphorical transfer, it was both poorly executed and poorly thought out, as it took things far too literally for that to work, and entirely failed to account for the differences in the fields in question. As a metaphor, it didn't work, and as a non-metaphoric statement, it was blatantly anti-scientific.
It seem very clear that you missed the whole point of that paragraph. It's ok if you didn't understand it, no one is perfect. This illustrates a good point, mutual understanding. In this case an unintentional lack thereof. Just because you didn't understand it doesn't mean it wasn't valid. Put another way, you may have failed to understand the point of that comment because it was outside the scope of your understanding.
ValantarAgain: not wanting to be discriminated against apparently makes you entitled.
Yes, it does. Again, we don't hire farmers to fly space shuttles. Discrimination is a natural part of life. It happens a lot and for infinitely varied reasons. Someone discriminates against you? Get the over it, brush it off and move on.
ValantarOr, you know, just maybe they're actually being treated unfairly?
Is that perceived unfairness real? Is it actually unfair or is it just in the mind of the beholder? Again, merit.
ValantarAgain: you actively refuse to accept that people with bad experiences actually should have the right to make their environment better.
No, but I do contend that any effort to make said personal environment better needs to also not harm the larger environment. If the person in question can't adapt to the environment they're in, then they need to find somewhere else to be instead of ruining that environment for everyone else. Again merit.
ValantarAnd if you see "be nice to people" as discriminatory, then you need to take a good look at what it is you value in interacting with other people.
Ah, but when have you ever been in a work environment with more than 10 people were everyone gets a long perfectly? You can't force people to like each other, and you can't change people's character.
ValantarBeing in an environment with other people requires you to (to a certain degree) adhere to its norms and social conventions.
Sure, but who gets to define those "norms"? Is it the people leading that environment? Or would you rather it be the people who are not the leaders?
ValantarFrom what you're saying, it sounds like you see it as discriminatory if people aren't allowed to discriminate against others, which is a logical fallacy of the finest sort.
Incorrect. As noted above, discrimination is a natural part of life. We have rules and laws that are meant to prevent certain kinds of discrimination, but they happen anyway. It's never going to stop. I've myself have refuse to accept people on my team because I didn't like them and didn't want to work in the same building as them. Is that discrimination? Yes. It's wrong? That depends on your perspective. However, I'm the leader of my team and I alone decide who's on it. Most of the time a person's skills and qualifications play the largest role in such a decision.
Vayra86Yeah or perhaps just stick with what they had because that was as apolitical and pure as it gets, and should be.
Exactly. There was nothing wrong with the way is was.
Posted on Reply
#285
Valantar
Vayra86You're not really disagreeing with me, just wording it differently, and you still think the world and people will truly change when we actually do make changes to society. Competitiveness however is an evolutionary trait and it is what drives us to excel. If we cannot compare our achievements to others we lose a vital motivator to get things done. Our entire economy is based on competition, and principles like preference drift and reference drift are fundamental to it and founded upon these evolutionary traits. What I'm seeing is not a whole lot of change though. Across several millennia, essentially we are still struggling with each other for influence, power, wealth and prosperity. When it comes to warfare and conflict, all that really changes is how we go about it. When it comes to the workplace and hierarchy, we just find more politically correct vehicles to carry the same principles of 'do as you are told' and 'get the job done'.

It requires taking a big step back from the world you live in to see the similarities. Yes things change, but every new reality is still based upon those same human traits that have existed since we discovered fire. We are still fár away from real change, and real change in our approach to each other requires a new, bigger purpose for humanity. Such as avoiding mass extinction, or the idea of expanding beyond Earth. Those are milestones big enough to create a different drive than what we are doing now: endlessly dividing and rearranging the same plots of land and ideas of society.
I don't think we'll ever stop being competitive, no, and while I don't think the concept of competition is coded into our genes, it's an unavoidable product of the simple mental exercise of comparing similar things and their attributes. As long as we're able to tell that one apple is more appetizing than another, we'll have the cognitive basis for competition. However, modifying how we see and relate to competition is entirely open to change - and has changed quite dramatically in recent years. It's only thanks to Milton Friedman and his (bogus, but never mind that right now) economic theories that some of us now see it as acceptable for corporations to solely focus on competition (in this case: generating profit for shareholders), and the growth of neoliberalist capitalism since the 1970s or so (again: thanks, Milton!) has generally made competition/competitiveness into a far more highly valued and cherished attribute than it was previously. On an individual level, we think far more in terms of competition now than we did 50 years ago - and our society reflects this.

Also: empathy is just as fundamental a trait in humans as competition. The current focus on competition as somehow the "natural order of things" is an ideological construct with some quite heavy blinders attached to it, which grossly oversimplifies society and social interaction.
Posted on Reply
#286
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
ValantarSince when is "we've been doing it this way from the start!" a valid argument for maintaining a problematic practice when it's demonstrated to be problematic? Just because the problems were smaller or didn't come to light earlier doesn't mean that they didn't exist, and previous productivity under problematic conditions is not a valid argument against mitigating those problems. In fact, if history (and science) teaches us anything, it is that productivity and quality of work improves when working conditions improve.

Of course, an argument could then be made that enforcing "being nice to people" might be seen as enforcing worse working conditions for some. That's where dialogue, compromise and understanding comes in in creating a workable solution. However, there is something to be said about a fundamental lack of understanding of social dynamics in claiming that you need to be allowed to be an asshole to be productive or write good code. I'm not saying that you're making this argument, but it sure sounds like some people are. In which case they really ought to start looking into where their own personal freedom intersects with other people's.
Except there is no "problem" when the software works as intended, especially *free* software. You want to know of a *real* "problematic condition" that's plaguing many developers worldwide? "Crunch time." It destroys relationships, families, and individuals alike. Torvalds outbursts pales by comparison. But no, let's all jump on the one guy that's pissed off because someone did a thing that makes a lot more work for him that he shouldn't have to do.
ValantarIf the argument for Linux's value lies in its use in servers around the world (as quite a few people here have stated), it is intrinsically and inseparably bound to business and organizational life (whether that be corporations, governments, or idealist organizations). The only fork that would make sense then is one only licensed for individual/personal use, which I would guess would relegate it to obsolescence rather quickly.
Why do you think they use it in the first place? It's free and good. Compare Linux's kernel to Windows NT kernel. It took how long for Windows to implement basic USB Audio Class 2.0 drivers? A decade? More? Linux is attractive because it isn't corporate. If someone sees a problem or lacking feature, they fix it. They don't wait for a project manager to do a risk assessment for a month, then allot three months to work on five months later, then another month or three of testing to make sure it doesn't break anything, then release it and find out it breaks a lot of stuff they didn't test for. They just do it. Not only does it cost a lot less, the results are usually better. Corporate approaches are usually their own worst enemies.
ValantarBut the basic conditions of producing good code include a healthy community - isn't that the entire point of open-source software, to foster sharing and cooperation, and build on each others' work?
False. Individuals make code, they make it public and license it for use an amendment. That is open source. It has nothing to do with community. It's intentionally individualist because developers looking at their own code is like reading ones own thoughts. Reading someone else's code is like learning a new language. The only reason why most developers consider looking at someone else's code is if they identified a problem and are looking for a solution. The only "community" is the original developer pulling the fix back into their version.

Put bluntly, SJWs (or anyone that isn't actually contributing code) in programming is like a bull in a China shop. Nothing good can come from it.
Posted on Reply
#287
Valantar
lexluthermiesterYou seem to be taking things I'm stating way out of context. Of course I'm not arguing that being an "a-hole" is required. However, some people are jerks. They can't help it and they're never not going to be that way. So what are we going to do? Fire them? We start doing that we'll have to fire a solid 25% of the worlds best people. Whether or not someone is unpleasant or difficult to work with is irrelevant to how valuable they are. This is why decisions need always be based on merit. "Feelings" and "political correctness" are not appropriate in the professional environment. It would be nice if we all could make the working world all "Roses & rainbows" for everyone, but that's not realistic.

You seem to have the term "respect" mixed up with the words "compassion" and "kindness". While they are not mutually exclusive, they are not mutually inclusive either.

It did seem that way, but let's let it go.

Correct. There are many forms of discrimination. Most of them not only lawful but logical. You don't hire a farmer to fly a space shuttle do you? Merit.

Incorrect. I know full well that they are and what it feels like. Everyone does because it's happened to everyone. Are we going to change the rules of the world so that everyone who thinks(likely correctly) that they've been discriminated against in some way a avenue to force a change to accommodate their feelings of inclusiveness? Or does it make more sense to base every decision on merit?

If they're vision of an improvement is not compatible with the vision/scope of whatever they're working on or the views of the employer, then it is possible that such would be harmful. Again, merit.

I call things as they are presented. If someone's behavior merits a particular description or "label"..

Incorrect. I look down on people who create problems because they got their feelings hurt. So yes, as you said, "suck it up".

That depends on perception and the form of mistreatment. Just because someone perceives mistreatment doesn't actually make it so. Examination of the facts will reveal such. And if a form of discrimination is discovered, was it logical and appropriate? Again, merit.

It seem very clear that you missed the whole point of that paragraph. It's ok if you didn't understand it, no one is perfect. This illustrates a good point, mutual understanding. In this case an unintentional lack thereof. Just because you didn't understand it doesn't mean it wasn't valid. Put another way, you may have failed to understand the point of that comment because it was outside the scope of your understanding.

Yes, it does. Again, we don't hire farmers to fly space shuttles. Discrimination is a natural part of life. It happens a lot and for infinitely varied reasons. Someone discriminates against you? Get the over it, brush it off and move on.

Is that perceived unfairness real? Is it actually unfair or is it just in the mind of the beholder? Again, merit.

No, but I do contend that any effort to make said personal environment better needs to also not harm the larger environment. If the person in question can't adapt to the environment they're in, then they need to find somewhere else to be instead of ruining that environment for everyone else. Again merit.

Ah, but when have you ever been in a work environment with more than 10 people were everyone gets a long perfectly? You can't force people to like each other, and you can't change people's character.

Sure, but who gets to define those "norms"? Is it the people leading that environment? Or would you rather it be the people who are not the leaders?

Incorrect. As noted above, discrimination is a natural part of life. We have rules and laws that are meant to prevent certain kinds of discrimination, but they happen anyway. It's never going to stop. I've myself have refuse to accept people on my team because I didn't like them and didn't want to work in the same building as them. Is that discrimination? Yes. It's wrong? That depends on your perspective. However, I'm the leader of my team and I alone decide who's on it. Most of the time a person's skills and qualifications play the largest role in such a decision.
You keep dodging the fact that your definition of merit bluntly accepts the status quo as somehow neutral and "natural", which it isn'y in any way. Even if you accept that there is real discrimination, you refuse the very idea that discrimination is dependent on how it's received. Your belief in somehow documenting the "facts" of social interactions just goes to show how you're attempting to apply a form of positivist logic to a field where it's entirely unsuited.

Also: please stop using silly straw man arguments. The whole point here is the nuances, and nobody is arguing for the abolition of "discrimination" in the overly broad form you're using it in. What is being promoted is the idea that concepts such as "merit" aren't as simple as they might seem (or you make them out to be), and that many different kinds of context are entirely invaluable in understanding and judging merit.

Another thing you'd do well to avoid in the future: false equivalencies. Living with racism is not the same as being bullied in school, which is not the same as living as a woman, which is not the same as being laughed at as a kid for having ears that stick out. Of course, everyone reacts differently to this (due to an unaccountable myriad of factors), but on average, one can quite clearly tell apart the severity of various kinds and degrees of discrimination and mistreatment.

Then, of course, there's your denial of systemic discrimination. You keep talking about this as if it a series of isolated incidents. Culture isn't a series of isolated incidents, but all interconnected, and our bodies and minds form a large part of these connections. If a person has, say, been bullied while growing up, and is thus more sensitive than someone who wasn't to overtly aggressive behaviour in the workplace, should they then simply accept being passed over and given fewer opportunities than their aggressive, assertive colleagues? Is that fair? No. If people acting in a certain way have beaten you up regularly when growing up, your body and mind will both remember this, and react accordingly when encountering similar behaviour. Another, very different example: if someone (a woman, a person of color, whatever) is being pelted with various comments referencing their gender/ethnicity/other attributes not at all relevant to their job every day by various coworkers, is it not reasonable for this to affect them? Is it not reasonable for them to be sad or angry about this? It's not like they can reasonably control or change the attributes in question, after all. Doesn't the fault then lie with the people making these comments, no matter how innocent their intent? So, should they then just accept that it's their lot in life to be put upon by their peers, accept that they're worth less, and shut up? Or would it be reasonable for them to say "Hey, maybe stop making boob jokes every single time I'm in the room?". I'd say the latter. And, if people are unable to comply with a simple request like this, yes, repercussions should be expected.

As for you stating that ""Feelings" (...) are not appropriate in the professional environment.", well ... wow. Really? Are you actually arguing that it's at all possible for people to interact without feelings being a part of the picture? I suppose this might apply to sociopaths, but for anyone else, that is entirely impossible. And thus, as professional environments are also social environments (as are all environments, really), of course feelings and the discussion of them is entirely appropriate here, just as they are anywhere.

Regarding your statements that you can't change people's character: don't be daft. People change constantly. Our values, ideas, norms, and personality traits evolve every single day. Of course, changing fundamental personality traits is difficult, and with some of them so difficult as to be impossible in all practical terms, but our brains are immensely plastic and adaptive. It is entirely possible for someone to stop being rude, sexist, racist, or anything else.

When it comes to @mtcn77 's post, you're right that I don't understand the specifics of it (I haven't touched the natural sciences since high school, thankfully), but that's not at all required to understand the complete failure of logic that post presents. You can't just transfer the laws of thermodynamics or principles of what "enables work" in a chemical system into an organization and expect that to function as a workable metaphor for an organization existing under an entirely different set of rules (culture, not physics). (As an aside: he even attributes Intel's current woes to Anita Sarkeesian!?! What? Did she make their 10nm process fail? Am I missing something here? This is, quite simply, an entirely misplaced and unworkable metaphor or analogy. It doesn't fit. Period.) In chemistry, you work with known substances of which you have a rather comprehensive understanding of their traits. They're also rather homogeneous (all atoms of the same element are structured similarly, and so on). People, on the other hand, are fundamentally heterogeneous (even within demographic groups, unless you specify them down to such a small level that they become meaningless), we don't have even close to a complete understanding of each others' traits, and last but not least: outside of a scant few possible changes, molecules and chemicals are far less complex than humans in that they don't have lives. They don't change or evolve over time, they aren't shaped by what happens to them (outside of a limited set of reactions, mostly making/fusing them into something else or gaining/losing electrons), and they don't work differently based on those experiences. An iron atom is an iron atom no matter the cycles of change it's "experienced". It's not going to act as an argon atom because of its experiences. People don't work that way, and hence, organizations made out of people don't work that way. The laws of thermodynamics apply to systems where thermodynamics are relevant to their functioning. The only way that applies to people is that we couldn't exist as we currently do without these laws; other than that, they don't matter.

Also, it's kind of funny how you claim to champion this supposedly "objective" definition of merit (seriously, there is no such thing outside of pure abstraction, which isn't really useful unless you're a philosopher), and call yourself out as being a hypocrite for not wanting to work with people you don't like. A far superior solution there would be to admit that merit isn't such a static entity as you claim it to be, and that interpersonal relations (such as the ability to work together productively, or stand to be in the same room as each other) also factor into what constitutes merit. In any type of cooperative setting, the ability to cooperate is in and of itself a part of what constitutes merit. If you're coding alone, from scratch, that's (largely) a situation where "merit" would be only the quality of the code you produce. However, if you're working on a code project with someone else - even someone anonymous, who you never see, hear, or even communicate directly with - the definition of merit changes due to the simple fact that the work being done has become more complex. Now it's not coding alone, it's coding together. Those are fundamentally different things, and need to be treated as such. If you refuse to accept this, you're not doing anything but willfully blinding yourself to the inescapable realities of living and acting in a complex, interconnected world.
FordGT90ConceptExcept there is no "problem" when the software works as intended, especially *free* software. You want to know of a *real* "problematic condition" that's plaguing many developers worldwide? "Crunch time." It destroys relationships, families, and individuals alike. Torvalds outbursts pales by comparison. But no, let's all jump on the one guy that's pissed off because someone did a thing that makes a lot more work for him that he shouldn't have to do.
I research games for a living. Please don't talk to me as if I don't know or care about crunch time. Caring about one thing does not negate the possibility of caring about other things. Solving crunch time requires unionization of the programming workforce, which is thankfully starting to happen, but it's slow as all hell. Thankfully things are improving, at the very least, even if the current situation is entirely unacceptable.
FordGT90ConceptWhy do you think they use it in the first place? It's free and good. Compare Linux's kernel to Windows NT kernel. It took how long for Windows to implement basic USB Audio Class 2.0 drivers? A decade? More? Linux is attractive because it isn't corporate. If someone sees a problem or lacking feature, they fix it. They don't wait for a project manager to do a risk assessment for a month, then a lot three months to work on five months later, then another month or three of testing to make sure it doesn't break anything, then release it and find out it breaks a lot of stuff they didn't test for. They just do it. Not only does it cost a lot less, the results are usually better. Corporate approaches are usually their own worst enemies.
Being intrinsically linked to corporate life and corporate culture doesn't have to mean adopting corporate culture in its entirety (such as, as you point out, the risk-aversion and bureaucracy of large corporations), but that doesn't negate the need to adapt to your own development. Linux isn't a tiny, "rebel" OS any longer, and it needs to stop acting like it is. That ship has sailed.
FordGT90ConceptFalse. Individuals make code, they make it public and license it for use an amendment. That is open source. It has nothing to do with community. It's intentionally individualist because developers looking at their own code is like reading ones own thoughts. Reading someone else's code is like learning a new language. The only reason why most developers consider looking at someone else's code is if they identified a problem and are looking for a solution. The only "community" is the original developer pulling the fix back into their version.
So no programmer ever studied existing code to learn how to write their own? Programming projects don't have style guides? Yeah, sorry, I don't buy that. Even if seasoned programmers rarely read other people's code (unless they're working on the same part of the same project, I suppose), they've formed their "language" by studying the work of others and adapting it to their own desires. Also, isn't having "identified a problem and (...) looking for a solution" cooperation when another person made the thing with the problem? Particularly when the changes have to be accepted by the original developer? Yes it is. This is, however spaced out and nodal, a community. People are interacting, making things together, communicating. This is a community.
FordGT90ConceptPut bluntly, SJWs (or anyone that isn't actually contributing code) in programming is like a bull in a China shop. Nothing good can come from it.
Conservativism doesn't generally lead to good things either. Over the last centuries, conservatives have fought to preserve slavery, fought against democracy, fought against the right of everyone to own property, against the implementation of laws to prevent the wealthy abusing the poor, against women's rights, civil rights, and LBGTQI rights. Thankfully, they've (mostly) lost these fights. In the meantime, the world has progressed immensely in every single metric (outside of environmental damage; we've yet to fix that, sadly). Your statement is ahistorical in the long term, and pessimistic in the short term. Who is to say that this won't lead to an influx of capable developers who have previously avoided involvement in this community because of its toxicity? That is just as likely as what you're proposing.
Posted on Reply
#288
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
All off topic again...
ValantarSolving crunch time requires unionization of the programming workforce...
False. Crunching is the result of poor management. The worse the managers, the worse the crunch. Well managed projects end with a party, not a crunch.
ValantarConservativism doesn't generally lead to good things either.
Stability.
Posted on Reply
#289
lexluthermiester
ValantarYou keep dodging the fact that your definition of merit bluntly accepts the status quo
No, my definition of merit requires evidence based on factual information..
Posted on Reply
#290
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
rtwjunkieToo bad we can’t just report this whole thread which is now a stain on our community.
i love how some mod thought it was a great idea to “low quality” the above post (post #57), especially since I was speaking out against this totally politicized thread even existing. Keep in mind, it’s a double standard, because if any non-mod had started it we would have a vacation since it is so in violation of our TPU rules, as are most of the posts that follow.

It wasn’t low quality, it merely spoke the truth that was uncomfortable to whoever did it. I mean has anyone sat down to objectively read this thread? This thread is dividing the community.
Posted on Reply
#291
lexluthermiester
FordGT90ConceptFalse. Crunching is the result of poor management. The worse the managers, the worse the crunch. Well managed projects end with a party, not a crunch.
Exactly this!
rtwjunkiei love how some mod thought it was a great idea to “low quality” the above post (post #57), especially since I was speaking out against this totally politicized thread even existing. Keep in mind, it’s a double standard, because if any non-mod had started it we would have a vacation since it is so in violation of our TPU rules, as are most of the posts that follow.

It wasn’t low quality, it merely spoke the truth that was uncomfortable to whoever did it.
While I agree with you about your post not being low quality, this subject does need examination and discussion, even if it also gets unpleasant, somewhat heated and a bit toxic.
Posted on Reply
#292
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
lexluthermiesterWhile I agree with you about your post not being low quality, this subject does need examination and discussion, even if it also gets unpleasant, somewhat heated and a bit toxic.
Discussion, yes. By us, here, no. I cannot agree to that. We are not a body of people charged with solving the Linux issue, or any of the other hundred politicized issues people have brought up.

We are not the ones going to solve this, so dividing the community on purpose is beyond reproach.
Posted on Reply
#293
Valantar
FordGT90ConceptFalse. Crunching is the result of poor management. The worse the managers, the worse the crunch. Well managed projects end with a party, not a crunch.
That's debatable. Of course, deadlines and requirements are both set by management, and pushing the deadline or lowering the requirements are both possibilities for managers - but in the current business climate (jeez, I can't seem to avoid Milton Friedman in this thread) managers are beholden to the board, and as such to stockholders (for publicly traded companies, that is), not to the welfare of their workers. This is an innate conflict in for-profit business, which has only escalated in recent years as corporate ideology has removed itself further and further from believing that they're in any way responsible for or beholden to the society they exist within. A lot of managers would alleviate the burden on their workforce if they could, but are barred from doing so by company policy and the company's fiduciary duty to shareholders being seen as the highest priority. As such, unionization is the only practical means of correcting this, as you need a united workforce to protest against the overwhelming power of shareholders (or, of course, good labor laws, but those don't get passed without strong unions. Ever.). This of course doesn't remove the responsibility of managers in planning well and making every possible effort to minimize crunch, but they're not where the buck stops here.
FordGT90ConceptStability.
Stability is positive only if the status quo is positive. If the status quo is harmful, so is stability - especially as maintaining a harmful status quo creates more harm the more time passes. This of course isn't saying that removing that stability will automatically make things better, but if you're starting from a bad place, it's likely that change will make things better, not worse.
lexluthermiesterNo, my definition of merit requires evidence based on factual information..
Yet you make it clear that certain types of factual information (such as ability to work productively together) are excluded from your definition. Again: you present a definition of merit that strips away all relevant context, making it almost an abstract phenomenon, entirely ignoring the fact that what constitutes merit is highly variable depending on context (not to mention largely dependent on who you ask, as we all prioritize differently). Then there's the fact that different types of merit often combine in complex ways. If a student from a poor, uneducated family who can't help them with homework manages to get a B in a test, and a wealthy student with educated parents and/or access to a tutor gets an A, who deserves the most merit? The latter student presented the best result, but the former has come the farthest, shown the most initiative, and worked the hardest. If you base your decisions purely on oversimplifications (like grades are) you're likely to miss out, as the former student here is arguably more likely to be a diligent and reliable employee. Context matters in any discussion of merit. Period. And sure, you can talk about facts, the question is what facts you see as relevant - and your line seems quite unrealistic.
Posted on Reply
#294
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Again with the offtopic…
ValantarStability is positive only if the status quo is positive. If the status quo is harmful, so is stability - especially as maintaining a harmful status quo creates more harm the more time passes. This of course isn't saying that removing that stability will automatically make things better, but if you're starting from a bad place, it's likely that change will make things better, not worse.
The opposite of stability is chaos and chaos is never positive. Status quo is status quo. It doesn't mean more or less anything: it maintains. Maintains is stability because stability, by definition, is the lack of disruption. If the minority has to make the situation worse for the majority then the net outcome is worse for everyone. There are no Democracies because Republics (will of the majority with rights of the minority) acknowledge and enforce that fact. Civility is never a right; it is an expectation.
Posted on Reply
#295
Valantar
FordGT90ConceptThe opposite of stability is chaos and chaos is never positive.
Yet there are things between stability and chaos. Moving away from stability does not mean creating or welcoming chaos. It's also entirely possible to maintain some aspects of societal stability while reshaping others. Shades of gray, not black and white.
Posted on Reply
#296
lexluthermiester
rtwjunkieDiscussion, yes. By us, here, no. I cannot agree to that. We are not a body of people charged with solving the Linux issue, or any of the other hundred politicized issues people have brought up.
Good point. However there has been a benefit..
rtwjunkieWe are not the ones going to solve this, so dividing the community on purpose is beyond reproach.
But has it really caused a division? While these things are being debated, in a somewhat heated way at points, my personal take is that an understanding of certain people has been gained. This is not meant in any derogatory way. For example, the exchange between Valantar and a few people, myself included, has yielded understanding. Regardless of whether or not we can ever agree on certain subjects, I have gained a new level of respect for Valantar, not because of the points made but because of the stance taken. Clearly Valantar cares about the world in which we live and wants to improve things. This is true of a few other people as well. People I previously thought were total nitwits have proven themselves to be insightful and full of depth. It's been a bit humbling. But that too can be a good thing.
ValantarThen there's the fact that different types of merit often combine in complex ways.
Agreed.
ValantarIf a student from a poor, uneducated family who can't help them with homework manages to get a B in a test, and a wealthy student with educated parents and/or access to a tutor gets an A, who deserves the most merit?
Whoever got the "A". Though to be fair, the disadvantaged student deserves recognition for the achievement and opportunity to do better in future.
ValantarContext matters in any discussion of merit. Period.
Agreed!
ValantarAnd sure, you can talk about facts, the question is what facts you see as relevant - and your line seems quite unrealistic.
I think the more approiate word would be "Focused". As you said, context matters.
ValantarShades of gray, not black and white.
Science and by virtue technology does not work in shades of gray. It works on 0's and 1's, on and off, black and white.
Posted on Reply
#297
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
lexluthermiesterBut has it really caused a division? While these things are being debated, in a somewhat heat way at points, my personal take is that an understanding of certain people has been gained. This is not meant in any derogatory way. For example, the exchange between Valantar and a few people, myself included, has yielded understanding. Regardless of whether or not we can ever agree on certain subjects, I have gained a new level of respect for Valantar, not because of the point made but because of the stance taken. Clearly Valantar cares about the world in which we live and wants to improve things. This is true of a few other people as well. People I previously thought were total nitwits have proven themselves to be insightful and full of depth. It's been a bit humbling. But that too can be a good thing.
You make a fair point that I see and understand.
Posted on Reply
#298
moproblems99
R-T-BI'm more concerned with what this kind of discussion is doing to the community though. That is certainly real.
In that case, it is showing me that a lot of people do not know how to be mature and accept that people are different. I learned a long time ago that I don't have time to worry about everyone else's problems. Would I like to? I'm not sure because there are a lot of problems in this world and I don't constantly want to be dragged into the mud. If someone needs a helping hand then I'll be glad to help if I am capable.

If I get caught up in what everyone else is doing then I am not focused on what I am doing. If I am not focused on what I am doing then I am jeopardizing my life and I know full well that somebody anyone will drop me like its hot as soon as the opportunity arises.

Perhaps, I am unemotional in this because I don't see race or differentiating factors. I don't have time.
Posted on Reply
#299
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
lexluthermiesterClearly Valantar cares about the world in which we live and wants to improve things.
"Improve" is highly subjective. Case in point: giving control to SJWs means taking it away from everyone else. Be inclusive, or else. We call that an authoritarian dictatorship. Code of Conflict literally stated the opposite.
Posted on Reply
#300
DRDNA
lexluthermiesterGood point. However there has been a benefit...
you mean like mentioning by some how they will remember like some kind of vendetta score card they are keeping how another member feels in regards to politics? This thread is utter shit and so is the fact that TPU allows the slander and speaking negative negative and the negativity around the USA President, the USA it's self, Russia being the world boogeyman, China being the worlds villain and so on and so forth! Now i have seen infractions for responce to such bullcrap get penalized but the offending posts are never deleted... Really so now TPU seems to endorse the Slandering of Presidents, the slandering of countries and the slandering of people for their beliefs..... and if I or any community member tries to counter the lies they get an infraction and the negative slanderous post gets to stay for all to read and have their heads filled with pure crapola!
Posted on Reply
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