awesomesauceSo who’s gonna try to buy arm next?

Nobody? They're going public for now.

DavenJensen Huang’s past anticompetitive behavior

Such as...?

So, who else is going to spend the money making Mali competitive again ( hasn't been in half a decade!)

If nobody else is going to fix things, then other SoC makes (besides Samsung) are going to go AMD (and cost ARM dearly with the loss of each big OEM)

When Pixel 6 has the largest Mali block ever built, and they still can't compete wit Qualcomm, then you know it's a losing-effort moving forward (they don't have the Moneybags of a big corp like Qualcomm or Apple or NVIDIA, so going IPO is just making this abandonment of Mali a guarantee)

defaultluserSo, who else is going to spend the money making Mali competitive again ( hasn't been in half a decade!)

If nobody else is going to fix things, then other SoC makes (besides Samsung) are going top go AMD (and cost ARM dearly with the los of reach bif OEM)

Apparently you don't understand that Arm the CPU architecture is entirely discrete from Mali the GPU architecture.

defaultluserSo, who else is going to spend the money making Mali competitive again ( hasn't been in half a decade!)

If nobody else is going to fix things, then other SoC makes (besides Samsung) are going top go AMD (and cost ARM dearly with the los of reach bif OEM)

It might be a good thing if Arm puts Mali on the backburner and focuses on its other, more important products. Imagination Technologies are clearly focusing on their GPU IP and in theory, the two should've teamed up a long time ago, but instead they seem to be bitter enemies, with IMG having gone down the MIPS route first and now RISC-V, since MIPS was a huge failure for them.

Then again, the lower end Mali GPUs are doing quite well, as there are so many entry level Arm based SoCs with the old MP400 and MP450, although it seems like Arm has managed to convince most companies to move to the much more modern G31 GPU IP now, as it seems to be slowly becoming the mainstream GPU in entry level Arm based SoCs. Most Arm SoCs aren't on the cutting edge or even in the mid-range, as soon as you move outside of the mobile device space and this is something people forget.

TheLostSwedeIt might be a good thing if Arm puts Mali on the backburner and focuses on its other, more important products. Imagination Technologies are clearly focusing on their GPU IP and in theory, the two should've teamed up a long time ago, but instead they seem to be bitter enemies, with IMG having gone down the MIPS route first and now RISC-V, since MIPS was a huge failure for them.

Then again, the lower end Mali GPUs are doing quite well, as there are so many entry level Arm based SoCs with the old MP400 and MP450, although it seems like Arm has managed to convince most companies to move to the much more modern G31 GPU IP now, as it seems to be slowly becoming the mainstream GPU in entry level Arm based SoCs. Most Arm SoCs aren't on the cutting edge or even in the mid-range, as soon as you move outside of the mobile device space and this is something people forget.

You don't make your money off licensing entry-level, when you take the time to build a design as complex as this:

www.anandtech.com/show/14385/arm-announces-malig77-gpu

When nobody is buying the big cores, you lose all that high-margin; but at the same time, you have to keep designing new ones (so entry-level chip-makers can benefit from new IP, and stopped from grabbing Imagination or AMD)

NVIDIA replacing Mali with already-paid-for CUDA was their best option for saving their "bundled for cheap GPU tech" from the Vultures - without that, it opens yet-another door for a future takeover from Riscv

defaultluserYou don't make your money off licensing entry-level, when you take the time to build a design as complex as this:

www.anandtech.com/show/14385/arm-announces-malig77-gpu

When nobody is buying the big cores, you lose all that high-margin; but at the same time, you have to keep designing new ones (so entry-level chip-makers can benefit friom new IP, and stopped from grabbing Imagination or AMD)

I guess you didn't really read my reply? I said it might be a good thing they put Mali on the backburner, since as you point out, they're spending a lot of money and resources on making high-end GPUs that very few of their customers use.

However, the lower-end stuff is usually licensed as a "bundle", especially to a lot of companies that make more basic Arm based SoCs.

TheLostSwedeI guess you didn't really read my reply? I said it might be a good thing they put Mali on the backburner, since as you point out, they're spending a lot of money and resources on making high-end GPUs that very few of their customers use.

However, the lower-end stuff is usually licensed as a "bundle", especially to a lot of companies that make more basic Arm based SoCs.

You're the one who is not listening to me!

When your largest bundled-parts competitor (first Qualcomm, and now Samsung ) refreshes their entire lineup every two year (includes new GPU, plus new CPUs,) you have to keep up (or SoC builders will start using whatever QualSung™ SoC that fits their needs, if it noticeably outperforms the pre-verified chips you send off to entice "easy-bake-SoC" customers!)

defaultluserYou're the one who is not listening to me!

When your largest bundled-parts competitor (first Qualcomm, and now Samsung ) refreshes their entire lineup every two year (includes new GPU, plus new CPUs,) you have to keep up (or SoC builders will start using whatever QualSung™ SoC that fits their needs, if it noticeably outperforms the pre-verified chips you send off to entice "easy-bake-SoC" customers!)

Uhm, Qualcomm has never used Arm GPUs, the only two mobile phone chip makers that have used them, afaik, is Samsung and MTK, the latter not even in all products as they've also been using Imagination Technologies in some parts. Not sure about Huawei (doesn't matter now anyhow), but it seems like Unisoc has used some of their lower-end and mid-range GPUs, as well as Imagination Technologies.
You seem to be poorly read up on what's being used by whom in the industry.

Outside of that, maybe Arm should stick to making mainstream and lower-end GPUs, as in things they don't need to put so much effort into.

TheLostSwedeQualcomm has never used Arm GPUs

That is correct. QC bought AMDs mobile Radeon part, renamed it to "Adreno" (anagram) and developed it further and since then always used it.

TheLostSwedeUhm, Qualcomm has never used Arm GPUs, the only two mobile phone chip makers that have used them, afaik, is Samsung and MTK, the latter not even in all products as they've also been using Imagination Technologies in some parts.
You seem to be poorly read up on what's being used by whom in the industry.

once again, you're not listening to me; Mali gets owned by Adreno (and soon AMD, in it's second-generation mobile Soc). If ARM stops wasting money on Mali, they lose all these low-end pre-verified competitors to Qualcomm (they will just use low-end Qualcomm SoCs)

Samsung is adding a second competitor to the list (and you can bet they will undercut Qualcomm on that pricing list, making it even harder for ARM-direct OEMS to justify making their own ARM + Mali easy-bake SoC)

defaultluseronce again, you're not listening to me; Mali gets owned by Adreno (and soon AMD, in it's second-generation mobile Soc). If ARM stops wasting money on Mali, they lose all these low-end pre-verified competitors to Qualcomm (they will just use low-end Qualcomm SoCs)

Samsung is adding a second competitor to the list (and you canb bet they will undercut Qualcomm on that list, making it even harder for OEMS to make their own ARM + Mali SoC

Sorry, but you clearly have no idea how the industry works.
Qualcomm doesn't license GPU cores, final. You buy chips from them.
If Samsung or MTK went to Qualcomm and asked to license a GPU core, they wouldn't get further than the building lobby.
Your example is irrelevant as the only competitors that Arm has is Imagination Technologies and maybe, possibly AMD if their new project with Samsung works out.
There was Vivante, but they're even further behind and they were recently acquired by Verisilicon, so it's uncertain what they have coming in the future. The only really known parter they have is NXP. No other companies license GPU cores, at least not ones that can compete with Arm.

As such, it doesn't matter what Qualcomm, Apple, Nvidia or almost anyone else does, as they're not competing with the customers that licenses Arm's GPUs.
So can we stop this silly discussion now, as your understanding of the business isn't deep enough to grasp why everything you've said is irrelevant.

TheLostSwedeSorry, but you clearly have no idea how the industry works.
Qualcomm doesn't license GPU cores, final. You buy chips from them.
If Samsung or MTK went to Qualcomm and asked to license a GPU core, they wouldn't get further than the building lobby.
Your example is irrelevant as the only competitors that Arm has is Imagination Technologies and maybe, possibly AMD if their new project with Samsung works out.
There was Vivante, but they're even further behind and they were recently acquired by Verisilicon, so it's uncertain what they have coming in the future. The only really known parter they have is NXP. No other companies license GPU cores, at least not ones that can compete with Arm.

As such, it doesn't matter what Qualcomm, Apple, Nvidia or almost anyone else does, as they're not competing with the customers that licenses Arm's GPUs.
So can we stop this silly discussion now, as your understanding of the business isn't deep enough to grasp why everything you've said is irrelevant.

Does anyone want to reply to me that doesn't keep reading my post and making up their own Vivante Fan-Fic (where the fuck did that even come from?)

Seriously man,. you have heard of low-end phones using low-end Qualcomm chips, right?

www.nokia.com/phones/en_us/nokia-g-50?sku=F16BYA1022007

nokiamob.net/2021/11/01/qualcomm-refreshes-midrange-and-entry-level-processors/

Samsung new RDNA2 lineup will add even lower prices to that party (or it can't possibly hope o compete with Qualcomm's massive presence) - it's going to be hard for places like Mediatek to remain competitive running Mali, even against low-end Qualcomm or Samsung

Sorry, but you're confusing things something rather insanely here.
Qualcomm licenses CPU IP/ISA from Arm to make their SoCs.
So does Samsung, MTK and all the other players.
Arm DOESN'T make hardware, they license IP/ISA.
Honestly... o_O

Leather man Huang is not a person to put your trust in. Period.

They were happy to sell, Nvidia was happy to buy, so why another third party interferes and ban it? Free market is never free, when it is been disturbed by another.

TurmaniaThey were happy to sell, Nvidia was happy to buy, so why another third party interferes and ban it? Free market is never free, when it is been disturbed by another.

If ARM manufactured and sold products of their own, you might have a point here. But since ARM provides licensing (authorization) to third parties that compete with Nvidia with their own products, then Nvidia and ARM cannot do whatever they like.

While not perfectly analogous, it would be like MS buying Intel and then denying any AMD based PC rights to a Windows license even if AMD or the system integrator will pay. Its bad the other way around too (Intel buys MS).

Not every company who mutually wants to buy another company can do so because it can effect other businesses to the detriment of the market and society.

defaultluserDoes anyone want to reply to me that doesn't keep reading my post and making up their own Vivante Fan-Fic (where the fuck did that even come from?)

Seriously man,. you have heard of low-end phones using low-end Qualcomm chips, right?

www.nokia.com/phones/en_us/nokia-g-50?sku=F16BYA1022007

nokiamob.net/2021/11/01/qualcomm-refreshes-midrange-and-entry-level-processors/

Samsung new RDNA2 lineup will add even lower prices to that party (or it can't possibly hope o compete with Qualcomm's massive presence) - it's going to be hard for places like Mediatek to remain competitive running Mali, even against low-end Qualcomm or Samsung

There's A LOT more to ARM than stupid phones. Until faily recently I was working with an NXP SoC with a Vivante gpu (and yes, performance sucked :D ) on something that will be produced in fairly higher quantities than any flagship phone. The phone market is a small piece of the entire arm based SoC pie.

Mali graphic performance is not that important just as phones having massive gpu power is not that important anyway. There's a niche of a niche that cares for higher end performance, gaming or just epeen and better benchmarks, but the vast majority of phones need only basic video output with hw en/decoders and, going forward, npu both being separate pieces of ip anyway. Bringing Adreno/RDNA2 ip to the discussion is having a very small view of what the market for ARM ip is.

AssimilatorSuch as...?

3DFX. Or the original makers of Physx can't recall they're name(Agiea). I could send you a link to a video you wouldn't watch too.

Prima.VeraThe funny thing is that those regulators said and did nothing when SoftBank purchased ARM a couple of years ago. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Im sure none of their money where involved somehow! That would be... illegal...

TheoneandonlyMrK3DFX. Or the original makers of Physx can't recall they're name. I could send you a link to a video you wouldn't watch too.

Buying out other companies isn't inherently anticompetitive, dear child.

AssimilatorBuying out other companies isn't inherently anticompetitive, dear child.

What happened next to them was , and shit , that's funny, I'm middle aged.
And I know right, yet this would have been.

And I know you won't watch it but, I thought you lived through it too, no?!

If anything, NVIDIA should now be more inspired to buy a new license and refine an ARM CPU design to mesh with their GPUs, and attempt to counter AMD in the portables market, which AMD is slowly but surely making in-roads into, what with the Steam Deck and next-gen AyaNeo portable, and their joint project with Samsung (which is a lead-in to phones, tablets, and Chromebooks). Create a next-gen Shield that leverages their GeForce Now streaming service as a partial counter to dedicated portable consoles, and maybe also give Nintendo some favors so that Nintendo stays with NVIDIA instead of shifting to say, a new semi-custom solution from AMD (a prime candidate given the Steam Deck) or Intel (whose Xe mobile parts aren't exactly slacking in early tests alongside the fact that Intel can better guarantee chip availability thanks to in-house fabs). Granted, NVIDIA has been more about the datacenter and corporate enterprises as of late, so even if they lost some share in the portables market, they're still going strong in the corporate world and desktop/laptop gaming world.

That said, with ARM going public, I wonder if SoftBank will still hold controlling stake, or if they're intending on fully relinquishing it via selling their shares as part of ARM going public. If they're looking to long-term, they could keep a controlling stake, while letting ARM still gain more investment from other parties, whether it's a stake from the UK and EU governments, or NVIDIA, or the CCP, or the USA, or other corporations with vested interest. Otherwise, it'll just be a free-for-all to see which group can buy enough shares to have controlling interest. While it's not quite a takeover, it will still lead to other parties having a say in what ARM should do.

TechLurkerif they're intending on fully relinquishing it via selling their shares as part of ARM going public

Anything less than 51% (control) would be stupid of them, though I'm pretty they wouldn't offload all of it at once!

CallandorWoTI don't own any ARM products and have no need for them, so I could care less honestly, good luck to them.

I've owned two Arm products since birth.