I enjoyed watching CHiPs, the only good thing to come out of the US for years.

Doesn't it take about 3-5 years for a chip fab to be built and up and running? If this is the case, we are looking at 2025-2027 before the first fabs are going and the reliance on Asian foundries lessens. Even then, the way things are going, the demand for chips will probably still outstrip supply.

ChaitanyaSo country that takes pride and boasts about free market capitalism is endorsing socialist policies.

Lol that is not what is happening here.

HammermanI only signed up because you are talking absolute rubbish. Mostly because its dangerous facist fantasy rubbish. Wages have never been tied to global trade and are not the reason for their decrease.

It's good you realise that trickle down doesnt work. Maybe dont vote for the politicians who support this, given they are also linked to wages decreasing.

This has to be a troll post and btw lol @ your fascist remark.

umdterps71My degree is in economics and both of you are wrong.

Globalization has moved low income jobs to other countries while leaving the high paying ones here, not taken higher paying ones and leaving the west with low wage ones.

It's created a divide between the have and have nots as you need to have skills to be a high wage earner.... anyone without skills are regulated to low wage jobs, eroding the middle class in the process. Truth be told, those job you think would have paid better would have simply had to lower their wages substantially or go out of business if they didn't export them to Asia.

In my experience, its those that have low education that think voting power is diminished in capitalistic societies. As those are the people in low wage jobs feeling betrayed by the current system.

For future reference, don't belittle someones expertise on a subject when you, yourself are not an expert.

Where is here?

In Canada most of the manufacturing jobs were decent paying jobs with benefits, pensions, etc. Most of them went overseas when the cold war ended and China joined the WTO leaving people to work for min wage and nothing in Tim Hortons, home depot, etc.

LeiesoldatA lot of the money goes to Intel because they were essentially blackmailing the US Government: give us the money or we are building our fabs in another country and the US will be at the bottom of the queue for silicon.

This does not help the US consumer in the least bit; in fact we get to foot the bill to fund Intel's R&D budget for the next couple of years.

Intel are building fabs in other nations. Look at Germany for example. Their philosophy is to diversify manufacturing, of course not everyone is going to like it.

ChaitanyaSo country that takes pride and boasts about free market capitalism is endorsing socialist policies.

Socialism for the people? Bad! Socialism for companies? GOOD!!!

God, I hate the double-standard.

bonehead123If this had happened 10, or even 5 years ago, we probably wouldn't be in the predicament that we are now....

But, as we all know, hindsight is 20/20 :D

Always has been. Hindsight is always 20/20.

DavenI just can’t believe we are all falling for Intel’s con:

Don't worry the Senators & Congressmen will get their cut, just like they're paid to do! It's amusing how quickly this forum forgot 2008, or is it selective amnesia because it's "us" vs them?
Also an FYI they did roughly ~45 billion USD in stock buybacks over the last 5 odd years since 2017 :nutkick:
www.intc.com/stock-info/dividends-and-buybacks
I'm not even counting the divided payouts! Your tax payer money at work, enriching the already filthy rich :pimp:

Why_MeThis has to be a troll post and btw lol @ your fascist remark.

No, pretty sure he's just a guy who does not think like you.

This thread is full of hot takes and has more BS than a cattle ranch, you shouldn't be surprised.

LeiesoldatSo country that takes pride and boasts about free market capitalism is endorsing socialist policies.

Kind of.
It's called cronyism to be more precise.

R-T-BNo, pretty sure he's just a guy who does not think like you.

This thread is full of hot takes and has more BS than a cattle ranch, you shouldn't be surprised.

Obviously he hasn't a clue as to what the word fascist means or how globalism has affected blue collar workers in western countries.

Why_MeObviously he hasn't a clue as to what the word fascist means or how globalism has affected blue collar workers in western countries.

And I'm sure you do, yeah. :rolleyes:

R-T-BAnd I'm sure you do, yeah. :rolleyes:

I'm a blue collar worker as is most of my family and yes I do have a clue on what a fascist is.

This is a lot of political BS, but what does the act actually do?

AusWolfThis is a lot of political BS, but what does the act actually do?

It subsidizes future chip foundries in the US.

maxflyI see the intel hate is out in full force this fine day! hahaha. And the political rubbish? Cmon, what is this? reddit, facebook, twitter? Embarrassing.

A bill that will create jobs and decrease foreign dependency. Hmm, gotta be bad if the I word is involved! You guys crack me up.

Anyone with a sense of fairness should dislike Intel.... They already have every financial advantage over AMD (i.e. Intel R&D budget: $15 billion, AMD R&D budget: $2 Billion), and instead of out innovating to compete, they do things like try to buy up all of TSMC's 3nm capacity to keep it out of AMD hands, a behavior that hurts every consumer and enthusiast, so if you don't despise Intel's actions, you're not looking out for your own self interests, and now they're being handed billions of dollars of taxpayer money without any restrictions or guarantees of how its used.

This legislation has been sold to the public as "creating jobs", but in reality there's not a single thing in this legislation that prevents the companies that receive it from engaging in stock buybacks, huge executive bonuses, and other typical corporate behavior that ensures short term profitability over everything else, and with the recent news that Intel didn't do so well the previous quarter, Intel has every incentive to engage in such behavior.... Just like the Airlines did once they received billions during covid, they were supposed to use that government money to keep people employed, but they didn't, they still laid everyone off or forced them into early retirement and the result of which is the current terrible service and constant cancelation of flights, and like always, the government just shrugs because there was never any intent to ensure such money was used properly.... Thanks to politicians being thoroughly bought off by legalized bribery (campaign contributions or the guarantee of a high paying job once their political career is over), these funds were intended, as they are always intended to be a "no questions asked" giveaway.

Intel will do the same, just like every corporation does once they receive a huge handout: please the shareholders, not the public who gave you the money.

In a hypothetical world, If a government who actually cares about what's best for the people we're in charge (and that's neither parties BTW), they wouldn't give Intel any money, they'd tell Intel that either they build fabs domestically, or the government is going to close every tax loophole they currently exploit, raise the corporate tax rate, launch anti-monopoly investigations into every aspect of Intel, and do whatever is necessary to ensure that everyone who's a friend of the United States, or just scared of the United States, doesn't allow Intel to build new fabs there and if they already have fabs in those countries, that they'll get the same treatment. Government should be a counterbalance to corporate power, not its underwriter.

"Fascism should rightfully be called corporatism, because it's a merger of state and corporate power" - Mussolini
-Can we honestly claim to be witnessing anything else with beha ior such as the Chips act?

AusWolfThis is a lot of political BS, but what does the act actually do?

It just hands out money with absolutely no safe guards or stipulations, meaning Intel can engage in stock buybacks, executive bonuses, whatever thry want with the money with absolutely no oversight from the government, in almost every case this happens whether it be the bailout of 2008, the huge funds given to airlines during the worst of Covid, or now, these companies rarely, if ever use the money for its intended purpose and instead use it to increase shortterm profits and to please shareholders.

It's also funny to me that certain American politicians who do everything in their power to stop any bit of spending to directly help people or address climate change, also claim they're concerned about "the deficit", but when it comes to huge corporate handouts and military budgets (which are just more corporate handouts to defense contractors) they never once mention the deficit.

ChaitanyaNone of Intel's competitors are thrilled with this even before passing.
seekingalpha.com/news/3857463-advanced-micro-devices-qualcomm-nvidia-may-oppose-chips-act-for-lack-of-subsidies-report

Oh no, fabless chip makers complaining about fab subsidies. We can't have any of that...

AnarchoPrimitivAnyone with a sense of fairness should dislike Intel.... They already have every financial advantage over AMD (i.e. Intel R&D budget: $15 billion, AMD R&D budget: $2 Billion), and instead of out innovating to compete, they do things like try to buy up all of TSMC's 3nm capacity to keep it out of AMD hands, a behavior that hurts every consumer and enthusiast, so if you don't despise Intel's actions, you're not looking out for your own self interests, and now they're being handed billions of dollars of taxpayer money without any restrictions or guarantees of how its used.

This legislation has been sold to the public as "creating jobs", but in reality there's not a single thing in this legislation that prevents the companies that receive it from engaging in stock buybacks, huge executive bonuses, and other typical corporate behavior that ensures short term profitability over everything else, and with the recent news that Intel didn't do so well the previous quarter, Intel has every incentive to engage in such behavior.... Just like the Airlines did once they received billions during covid, they were supposed to use that government money to keep people employed, but they didn't, they still laid everyone off or forced them into early retirement and the result of which is the current terrible service and constant cancelation of flights, and like always, the government just shrugs because there was never any intent to ensure such money was used properly.... Thanks to politicians being thoroughly bought off by legalized bribery (campaign contributions or the guarantee of a high paying job once their political career is over), these funds were intended, as they are always intended to be a "no questions asked" giveaway.

Intel will do the same, just like every corporation does once they receive a huge handout: please the shareholders, not the public who gave you the money.

In a hypothetical world, If a government who actually cares about what's best for the people we're in charge (and that's neither parties BTW), they wouldn't give Intel any money, they'd tell Intel that either they build fabs domestically, or the government is going to close every tax loophole they currently exploit, raise the corporate tax rate, launch anti-monopoly investigations into every aspect of Intel, and do whatever is necessary to ensure that everyone who's a friend of the United States, or just scared of the United States, doesn't allow Intel to build new fabs there and if they already have fabs in those countries, that they'll get the same treatment. Government should be a counterbalance to corporate power, not its underwriter.

"Fascism should rightfully be called corporatism, because it's a merger of state and corporate power" - Mussolini
-Can we honestly claim to be witnessing anything else with beha ior such as the Chips act?



It just hands out money with absolutely no safe guards or stipulations, meaning Intel can engage in stock buybacks, executive bonuses, whatever thry want with the money with absolutely no oversight from the government, in almost every case this happens whether it be the bailout of 2008, the huge funds given to airlines during the worst of Covid, or now, these companies rarely, if ever use the money for its intended purpose and instead use it to increase shortterm profits and to please shareholders.

It's also funny to me that certain American politicians who do everything in their power to stop any bit of spending to directly help people or address climate change, also claim they're concerned about "the deficit", but when it comes to huge corporate handouts and military budgets (which are just more corporate handouts to defense contractors) they never once mention the deficit.

They've already made sure the executives & stock holders are well taken care of ~

Finally, we paid dividends of $1.5 billion, a 5% increase year-over-year, and remain committed to growing the dividend over time.

We are also lowering core expenses in calendar year ’22.

CapEx, we’re revising down our forecast to $23 billion, $4 billion less than our previous guidance.

semianalysis.com/intel-cuts-fab-buildout-by-4b-to-pay-billions-in-dividends-first-net-loss-in-over-30-years-cutting-fab-buildouts-but-committed-to-growing-the-dividend/
If there's any oversight to this "slush fund", which I'm sure there isn't, they'll avoid the 2008 (TARP) repeat!

bugOh no, fabless chip makers complaining about fab subsidies. We can't have any of that...

Oh no let's reward the company that spent the last decade milking their customers & floundering everything from their core x86 business to 4G/5G modems & now Optane ~ yup Capitalism at its finest :slap:

R0H1TOh no let's reward the company that spent the last decade milking their customers & floundering everything from their core x86 businesses to 4G/5G modems & now Optane ~ yup Capitalism at it's finest :slap:

This is not rewarding anything. It's just helping get the US back at the top of the fab game. Intel was going to invest about $20bn anyway, this just taking a little of the burden off their chest.

And just to be clear, I am not at all for state sponsoring private businesses. I am only for the state lending a hand when in a pinch. I mean, let's not forget: www.brainyquote.com/quotes/ronald_reagan_128358

And this isn't just a big FU to the US tax payer, it's also a massive slap in the face to everyone who supported AMD in the last half a decade or so post Zen. AMD should at least get half of what Intel may, anything less IMO will create a massive imbalance in the market!

bugThis is not rewarding anything.

How do you suppose Intel's going to pay this loan handout back? I haven't read the fine print but perhaps you can explain the logic behind enabling more of the same disgusting behaviour which led to the excesses of 2008 meltdown? I know that time because I suffered like millions others around the world :shadedshu:

bugI am not at all for state sponsoring private businesses.

I'm fine with US doing this for their own (domestic) growth, it's hardly earth shattering with 99% countries around the globe doing something similar. It should however be merit based, with lots of string attached, or better directed. How about you directly pay the chipmaker a certain % or fixed amount for chips diffused in the US, and cap that till perhaps a fixed volume or revenue from the subsidized chips reaching say $100 billion or so.

ZeppMan217Can't help but wonder how much of this goes just to Intel.

I'm puzzled what "this" even is.

The text in OP is Soviet style "we'll build communism".

I'd appreciate listing exactly what is in the legislation, I could imagine what it could bring all by myself...

DavenI just can’t believe we are all falling for Intel’s con:

semianalysis.com/intel-cuts-fab-buildout-by-4b-to-pay-billions-in-dividends-first-net-loss-in-over-30-years-cutting-fab-buildouts-but-committed-to-growing-the-dividend/

They only want the bailout so they can keep paying dividends and not pay for their own manufacturing fabs. This is highway robbery pure and simple!!!

Intel fights an uphill battle with fabs.

The costs are already exorbitant and only grow over time. And, unlike TSMC, Intel cannot pass those costs over to others.

AusWolfThis is a lot of political BS, but what does the act actually do?

Phew, I was thinking I was alone.

$52 billion for the "American semiconductor industry" (it actually isn't just Intel).

$200 billion for "scientific research in areas including AI and quantum computing".

I'd sort of shrug on AI, even though US is leading it anyhoow, thanks to monsters like google and MS.
"quantum computing" sounds like such "OMG, blockchain, amazing tech, the best thing after sliced bread" sort of a waste.

Also, all that being in US, I wonder which chunk of those 252 billion will be spent on the industry created by our "diversity and inclusion" overlords.


As much as I dislike Intel, I would not like to see it giving up on own fab business.

Also, "Republic of China", which Taiwan is part of, is not officially recognized even by US. Imagine the havoc in chip world if "Peoples Republic of China" invades it.

-------------------

Notable mention: European Chips act (42 billion Euro):

ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/european-chips-act_en

Why_MeIt subsidizes future chip foundries in the US.

AnarchoPrimitivIt just hands out money with absolutely no safe guards or stipulations, meaning Intel can engage in stock buybacks, executive bonuses, whatever thry want with the money with absolutely no oversight from the government, in almost every case this happens whether it be the bailout of 2008, the huge funds given to airlines during the worst of Covid, or now, these companies rarely, if ever use the money for its intended purpose and instead use it to increase shortterm profits and to please shareholders.

It's also funny to me that certain American politicians who do everything in their power to stop any bit of spending to directly help people or address climate change, also claim they're concerned about "the deficit", but when it comes to huge corporate handouts and military budgets (which are just more corporate handouts to defense contractors) they never once mention the deficit.

So basically, it's free money for American semiconductor companies with the intent to incentivise building fabs in the US, but with no actual restrictions on how they're supposed to spend it?

ChaitanyaSo country that takes pride and boasts about free market capitalism is endorsing socialist policies.

+1 from me and many other members. On the other hand they don't dare to control the crooks of the stock and exchange market, who 'buy' future contracts of oil, gas, grain etc without even a minimal advance payment (!).

ChaitanyaSo country that takes pride and boasts about free market capitalism is endorsing socialist policies.

Because members of a completely free market can't stay competitive for long in a world where opposing powers (like China) are injecting shitloads of cash into their industries.

AnarchoPrimitivAnyone with a sense of fairness should dislike Intel.... They already have every financial advantage over AMD (i.e. Intel R&D budget: $15 billion, AMD R&D budget: $2 Billion), and instead of out innovating to compete, they do things like try to buy up all of TSMC's 3nm capacity to keep it out of AMD hands, a behavior that hurts every consumer and enthusiast, so if you don't despise Intel's actions, you're not looking out for your own self interests, and now they're being handed billions of dollars of taxpayer money without any restrictions or guarantees of how its used.

This legislation has been sold to the public as "creating jobs", but in reality there's not a single thing in this legislation that prevents the companies that receive it from engaging in stock buybacks, huge executive bonuses, and other typical corporate behavior that ensures short term profitability over everything else, and with the recent news that Intel didn't do so well the previous quarter, Intel has every incentive to engage in such behavior.... Just like the Airlines did once they received billions during covid, they were supposed to use that government money to keep people employed, but they didn't, they still laid everyone off or forced them into early retirement and the result of which is the current terrible service and constant cancelation of flights, and like always, the government just shrugs because there was never any intent to ensure such money was used properly.... Thanks to politicians being thoroughly bought off by legalized bribery (campaign contributions or the guarantee of a high paying job once their political career is over), these funds were intended, as they are always intended to be a "no questions asked" giveaway.

Intel will do the same, just like every corporation does once they receive a huge handout: please the shareholders, not the public who gave you the money.

In a hypothetical world, If a government who actually cares about what's best for the people we're in charge (and that's neither parties BTW), they wouldn't give Intel any money, they'd tell Intel that either they build fabs domestically, or the government is going to close every tax loophole they currently exploit, raise the corporate tax rate, launch anti-monopoly investigations into every aspect of Intel, and do whatever is necessary to ensure that everyone who's a friend of the United States, or just scared of the United States, doesn't allow Intel to build new fabs there and if they already have fabs in those countries, that they'll get the same treatment. Government should be a counterbalance to corporate power, not its underwriter.

"Fascism should rightfully be called corporatism, because it's a merger of state and corporate power" - Mussolini
-Can we honestly claim to be witnessing anything else with beha ior such as the Chips act?



It just hands out money with absolutely no safe guards or stipulations, meaning Intel can engage in stock buybacks, executive bonuses, whatever thry want with the money with absolutely no oversight from the government, in almost every case this happens whether it be the bailout of 2008, the huge funds given to airlines during the worst of Covid, or now, these companies rarely, if ever use the money for its intended purpose and instead use it to increase shortterm profits and to please shareholders.

It's also funny to me that certain American politicians who do everything in their power to stop any bit of spending to directly help people or address climate change, also claim they're concerned about "the deficit", but when it comes to huge corporate handouts and military budgets (which are just more corporate handouts to defense contractors) they never once mention the deficit.

Yup, I get it, Intel baaaad. Yawn.

Sorry, I'm just not interested enough in your opinions to argue about how your convinced this bill is so sick and wrong (or read your wall of text). I do hope you enjoy yourself ;)