Friday, April 26th 2024

Huawei Aims to Develop Homegrown HBM Memory Amidst US Sanctions

Apr 26th, 2024 12:43 Discuss (21 Comments)

According to The Information, in a strategic maneuver to circumvent the constraints imposed by US sanctions, Huawei is accelerating efforts to establish domestic production capabilities for High Bandwidth Memory (HBM) within China. This move addresses the limitations that have hampered the company's advancements in AI and high-performance computing (HPC) sectors. HBM technology plays a pivotal role in enhancing the performance of AI and HPC processors by mitigating memory bandwidth bottlenecks. Recognizing its significance, Huawei has assembled a consortium comprising memory manufacturers backed by the Chinese government and prominent semiconductor companies like Fujian Jinhua Integrated Circuit. This consortium is focused on advancing HBM2 memory technology, which is crucial for Huawei's Ascend-series processors for AI applications.

Huawei's initiative comes at a time when the company faces challenges in accessing HBM from external sources, impacting the availability of its AI processors in the market. Despite facing obstacles such as international regulations restricting the sale of advanced chipmaking equipment to China, Huawei's efforts underscore China's broader push for self-sufficiency in critical technologies essential for AI and supercomputing. By investing in domestic HBM production, Huawei aims to secure a stable supply chain for these vital components, reducing reliance on external suppliers. This strategic shift not only demonstrates Huawei's resilience in navigating geopolitical challenges but also highlights China's determination to strengthen its technological independence in the face of external pressures. As the global tech landscape continues to evolve, Huawei's move to develop homegrown HBM memory could have far-reaching implications for China's AI and HPC capabilities, positioning the country as a significant player in the memory field.

Sources: The Information, via Tom's Hardware

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21 Comments on Huawei Aims to Develop Homegrown HBM Memory Amidst US Sanctions

JasBC

I want this, but for Europe.

Denver

Anything is possible in the house of lawlessness...

overclockedamd

DenverAnything is possible in the house of lawlessness...

I'm sending this to the CCP......Who am I kidding they already saw it.

LabRat 891

YES

Imagine Chinese-native GPUs and not-APUs w/ HBM integrated?
Don't care if 1-3 gens behind in performance; 'The West' snatched HBM away from the masses.
Let them reap what they've sown. -I merely hope we see exported HBM products, Stateside.

tpuuser256

foreign engineers moving to china to get the pretty pennies

DeathtoGnomes

Its only natural for China to do this. The more restrictions/sanctions, the more demand for internal development.

Shihab

PoochWhat chips are pictured here? could be anything? I, as in U.S., is not worried about pathetic Chinese child labor force chip production. Bing it on China. Look, ever since you been producing things, they have been inferior. That will not change, ever.

280 billion bucks and several, across-the-isle legislation/orders isn't exactly what I'd call "not worried."

Solaris17

Super Dainty Moderator

Huawei Aims to Develop Homegrown HBM Memory Amidst US Sanctions

I mean yeah. Sanctioned countries want to simply make their own stuff? Who would have thought lol

LabRat 891

PoochWhat chips are pictured here? could be anything?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AMD@14nm@GCN_5th_gen@Vega10@Radeon_RX_Vega_64@ES-Sample@_Stack-DSC01160-DSC01176_-_ZS-retouched.jpg
Pic is of a Vega 10, the 2nd-ever Consumer-available HBM-equipped GPU, 1st w/ HBM2.

Solaris17I mean yeah. Sanctioned countries want to simply make their own stuff? Who would have thought lol

Sanction the whole world! /s :laugh:
I want to see mass-distributed modern chip fabrication.

JasBCI want this, but for Europe.

Same, but for my home country as well. Which, both US and Europe are pursuing. (maybe not HBM in-particular, but more and new modern fabs, in general)

Semi-ideally, (In a better world) most-every Nation would have some level of "modern" chip fabrication industry. After all, 'chips' have become (nearly) as-necessary for a country's function and growth, as Agriculture.

Even Estonia has interest (at least) in the design-side of the industry
estonianworld.com/technology/think-tank-estonian-businesses-have-a-global-potential-in-chip-design-and-testing/

#10

Rafi2022

Go Go China we need cheap stuff.

JasBCI want this, but for Europe.

Dream on. Im also from Europe btw.

#11

SOAREVERSOR

LabRat 891YES

Imagine Chinese-native GPUs and not-APUs w/ HBM integrated?
Don't care if 1-3 gens behind in performance; 'The West' snatched HBM away from the masses.
Let them reap what they've sown. -I merely hope we see exported HBM products, Stateside.

Nobody snatched HBM away from the masses the masses aren't willing to pay for HBM! Just like Optane.

That's the issue. That's always been the issue with products like this. The masses aren't willing to pay for it so the masses have to wait until it's cheap as hell because the next thing great thing is out. Don't like it, don't buy computers.

And if China pulls this off the masses, especially PC gamers, aren't going to see this. It's going straight into AI, industrial, military, and professional stuff. You know, things that actually matter.

Never change PC gaming never change.

#12

Dr. Dro

SOAREVERSORNobody snatched HBM away from the masses the masses aren't willing to pay for HBM! Just like Optane.

That's the issue. That's always been the issue with products like this. The masses aren't willing to pay for it so the masses have to wait until it's cheap as hell because the next thing great thing is out. Don't like it, don't buy computers.

And if China pulls this off the masses, especially PC gamers, aren't going to see this. It's going straight into AI, industrial, military, and professional stuff. You know, things that actually matter.

Never change PC gaming never change.

Less of "people aren't willing to pay" and more of "engineers don't think it's worth using it, especially with the recent leaps in traditional GDDR bandwidth". HBM GPUs have complex packaging requirements which reduce yield. This makes it ill-suitable for mass market (read: high volume products.

#13

kondamin

I hope the team finds a way to up the frequencies to gddr7 speeds

#14

LabRat 891

Dr. DroLess of "people aren't willing to pay" and more of "engineers don't think it's worth using it, especially with the recent leaps in traditional GDDR bandwidth". HBM GPUs have complex packaging requirements which reduce yield. This makes it ill-suitable for mass market (read: high volume products.

Except, you're forgetting the extra silicon that's needed to compensate for the longer latencies of GDDR, regardless of raw bandwidth. -Bigger caches, or (in AMD's case) dedicated memory cache-control-compression MCM dies.

Until recently, Vega 10 and 20 are somewhat competent AI/MI 'toys', entirely because of their HBM.
Anything rapid-small transaction and/or latency-sensitive (like 3D Engine frame rendering), is massively benefitted by HBM.

To me, the theme with HBM is similar to 10GbE.
Except, imagine there were a few years that a major SOHO networking brand was providing somewhat affordable 10GBASE-T Switches, Routers, etc. Then, suddenly it all disappears from the consumer-facing market, and (just as in reality) people have the gall to say "you don't need it" or "it's not worth it".

#15

JasBC

Rafi2022Go Go China we need cheap stuff.

Dream on. Im also from Europe btw.

We let our last DRAM-manufacturer go and die after the financial crisis, so yeah - just dreams. . .

#16

Dr. Dro

LabRat 891Except, you're forgetting the extra silicon that's needed to compensate for the longer latencies of GDDR, regardless of raw bandwidth. -Bigger caches, or (in AMD's case) dedicated memory cache-control-compression MCM dies.

Until recently, Vega 10 and 20 are somewhat competent AI/MI 'toys', entirely because of their HBM.
Anything rapid-small transaction and/or latency-sensitive (like 3D Engine frame rendering), is massively benefitted by HBM.

To me, the theme with HBM is similar to 10GbE.
Except, imagine there were a few years that a major SOHO networking brand was providing somewhat affordable 10GBASE-T Switches, Routers, etc. Then, suddenly it all disappears from the consumer-facing market, and (just as in reality) people have the gall to say "you don't need it" or "it's not worth it".

It isn't relevant because the problem is and has always been yield. HBM cannot be tested until the processor is fully assembled, and if it's bad, you have to throw the entire package. Since HBM bonds into the substrate, replacing an HBM stack is impossible, even if such precision equipment existed as to be able to sever the bond between the interposer silicon and the HBM die without damage. It's not like I don't miss the cards, I was, and am, a big fan of HBM - I've owned all 3 gens of AMD's HBM GPUs, after all. Two Fury X, a Vega FE and a VII, and each of them were excellent hardware whose experience was marred by straight garbage quality drivers and a weird architecture that didn't benefit gaming, so it didn't work for me in the end.

#17

Prima.Vera

JasBCI want this, but for Europe.

IT hardware in Europe is dead and buried for long time now. This is because huge callous taxes, unfriendly investment environment, and again, taxes after taxes after taxes. Currently there is no single one company able to match even the smallest Taiwanese or Chinese ones.
Japan also lost the train long time ago. There are no more innovations coming from Japan in order to challenge the Korean, Taiwanese and Chinese micro conductors companies.
Best proof of this is the big economic collapse currently happening and huge inflation due to Yen crash. Sadly, Japan is becoming the World's Disneyland, instead the world's leader as it used to be.

#18

Minus Infinity

Dr. DroLess of "people aren't willing to pay" and more of "engineers don't think it's worth using it, especially with the recent leaps in traditional GDDR bandwidth". HBM GPUs have complex packaging requirements which reduce yield. This makes it ill-suitable for mass market (read: high volume products.

The users are getting reamed with GDDR6, how much do you want your 5090 with 32GB HBM to cost, $4K. HBM needs 2-3x the wafer area as GDDR6 for a start.

Now what I'd love to see is HBM for apu's. Imagine Halo with this. AMD was said to be working on apu with HBM about 6 years ago, but it died.

Anyway HBM is needed for the ultra fat profit margin AI/datacentre cards. Demand outstrips supply already, no one will take some for desktop GPU/apu.

#19

Dr. Dro

Minus InfinityThe users are getting reamed with GDDR6, how much do you want your 5090 with 32GB HBM to cost, $4K. HBM needs 2-3x the wafer area as GDDR6 for a start.

Now what I'd love to see is HBM for apu's. Imagine Halo with this. AMD was said to be working on apu with HBM about 6 years ago, but it died.

Anyway HBM is needed for the ultra fat profit margin AI/datacentre cards. Demand outstrips supply already, no one will take some for desktop GPU/apu.

Agreed, it'd be $4K *if* there's enough cards to go about at all, even at that cost. With the sheer complexity of latest generation chips, if you abolish gaming grade cards and make everything priced at enterprise level (and this is already a line being blurred tbh, right now you can get an enterprise grade card at a minimal performance tradeoff and only slightly higher cost, apart from the 4090/AD102), it's insanity to expect HBM in gaming cards until we have a major breakthrough in fab yields

#20

Rafi2022

DeathtoGnomesIts only natural for China to do this. The more restrictions/sanctions, the more demand for internal development.

Yeah instead USA make money, they force them to do their own stuff, good for them. I bet in 10 years we will buy Chinese CPUs coz they will be cheaper and better.
Win-Win.

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Huawei Aims to Develop Homegrown HBM Memory Amidst US Sanctions

21 Comments on Huawei Aims to Develop Homegrown HBM Memory Amidst US Sanctions