Now PS bros can run Horizon at 60fps
Wow! :laugh:

I don't care about 50 enhanced games when there are no good exclusives.

And players will not play those upgraded games on disc on PS Pro because of missing blu-ray :-)
I will keep my PS 5 with blu-ray, thank you!

Warframe. LOL

Oh man the console peasantry and its ignorance
'Consoles are way ahead of PC now'

Mhm
I think the much bigger change is that Sony is now releasing its PS content on the PC as well. I'm not sure people have been paying attention :) Also... since the Deck, we can emulate any console on the go... But yeah, walled gardens are of course much better! :kookoo:

I think Sony will look back on this in ten years time and then figure out it was here that they lost their console dominance once again. As if that isn't a crystal ball they've looked into a half dozen times already, with proof all around them that content is key. Nintendo and Sony themselves are the living proof of that, but Sony thinks they can just rehash old shit and call it new now. Mind blowing.

its funny how 4K 60 is an upgrade. like upgrade from what? 30FPS. wtf. how do these kids even play on these things.

VladiczechAnd players will not play those upgraded games on disc on PS Pro because of missing blu-ray :)
I will keep my PS 5 with blu-ray, thank you!

I don't think anyone who's buying a pro-spec console cares about slow and antiquated optical media, even then for the few that do there's an add-on drive available.

Dr. DroI don't think anyone who's buying a pro-spec console cares about slow and antiquated optical media, even then for the few that do there's an add-on drive available.

Why does wanting a more powerful GPU mean you dont care about owning the games you play?

TheinsanegamerNWhy does wanting a more powerful GPU mean you dont care about owning the games you play?

Well you don't own any of the games to begin with, even if they're in disc format. There are several restrictions, authorization checks and system software requirements to be met.

In the few cases discs contain the full data, you're still restricted to the gold build and to retrieve updates or access full functionality you still have to go online and update the system software to be able to download the patches. Games on disc haven't been a complete and done deal since the PS2.

Disc or not, consoles are a walled garden and you're only allowed to use the manufacturer's app store or disc that have been sanctioned and authorized by the console manufacturer, it's gatekept that way.

If you even remotely care about any degree of "ownership", using that term specifically regarding software access control, you are only going to play stuff from GOG. You still don't own GOG games but at least they're DRM free.

Dr. DroWell you don't own any of the games to begin with, even if they're in disc format. There are several restrictions, authorization checks and system software requirements to be met.

In the few cases discs contain the full data, you're still restricted to the gold build and to retrieve updates or access full functionality you still have to go online and update the system software to be able to download the patches. Games on disc haven't been a complete and done deal since the PS2.

Disc or not, consoles are a walled garden and you're only allowed to use the manufacturer's app store or disc that have been sanctioned and authorized by the console manufacturer, it's gatekept that way.

If you even remotely care about any degree of "ownership", using that term specifically regarding software access control, you are only going to play stuff from GOG. You still don't own GOG games but at least they're DRM free.

So what about those retro drives on Amazon with all of those old console Games on them. What about the physical copies of PS2 especially, Games that keep increasing in price on Ebay? GOG Games are yours to own. That is why you can take the Game files from any GOG Game put them on a flash drive and launch the Game from that drive in a totally different PC.

kapone32So what about those retro drives on Amazon with all of those old console Games on them. What about the physical copies of PS2 especially, Games that keep increasing in price on Ebay? GOG Games are yours to own. That is why you can take the Game files from any GOG Game put them on a flash drive and launch the Game from that drive in a totally different PC.

These are by large software piracy. Games on PS2 and other old consoles keep getting exponentially more expensive it's because genuine out of print media is in very limited supply, and due to DRM and nostalgia, they're highly sought after.

GOG games do not have DRM. This is their store's selling point. You can keep them and use them freely and without restriction, to the extent you won't be stopped, but technically the ownership of the software is still retained by the publisher and you aren't explicitly allowed to copy or sell the game to someone else.

Dr. DroThese are by large software piracy. Games on PS2 and other old consoles keep getting exponentially more expensive it's because genuine out of print media is in very limited supply, and due to DRM and nostalgia, they're highly sought after.

GOG games do not have DRM. This is their store's selling point. You can keep them and use them freely and without restriction, to the extent you won't be stopped, but technically the ownership of the software is still retained by the publisher and you aren't explicitly allowed to copy or sell the game to someone else.

But nothing prevents you from doing exactly that. With GOG (before Covid) I used to have 3 or 4 of my work mates go in to buy 1 key for a Game (Witcher 3) and one of us would buy it the others would send whatever the percentage was and they would bring a USB drive in that everyone could use to install the Game and even get GOG support. You can select any GOG Game and all it will ask you is to link the exe file. That sounds pretty free to me. As to the piracy argument I really could care less. We are talking about things like the Atari 5200 or Jaguar. Some have PS2 but PS1 Games look terrible today. I also like to play the Games that I paid for 20 years ago that are great but then others like Flashback on the 3DO that I would not be easily be able to play.

kapone32But nothing prevents you from doing exactly that. With GOG (before Covid) I used to have 3 or 4 of my work mates go in to buy 1 key for a Game (Witcher 3) and one of us would buy it the others would send whatever the percentage was and they would bring a USB drive in that everyone could use to install the Game and even get GOG support. You can select any GOG Game and all it will ask you is to link the exe file. That sounds pretty free to me. As to the piracy argument I really could care less. We are talking about things like the Atari 5200 or Jaguar. Some have PS2 but PS1 Games look terrible today. I also like to play the Games that I paid for 20 years ago that are great but then others like Flashback on the 3DO that I would not be easily be able to play.

Indeed that is the point of DRM free distribution. I like GOG. Anyone really concerned with this freedom of usability should look to GOG instead of consoles of any variety.

3DO also was famous for not having copy protection, but if think it was the only one. Even the NES has the CIC lockout chip and then Game Boy's "Nintendo" logo is actually a genuine cartridge check that was easily defeated.

Dr. DroWell you don't own any of the games to begin with, even if they're in disc format. There are several restrictions, authorization checks and system software requirements to be met.

In the few cases discs contain the full data, you're still restricted to the gold build and to retrieve updates or access full functionality you still have to go online and update the system software to be able to download the patches. Games on disc haven't been a complete and done deal since the PS2.

Disc or not, consoles are a walled garden and you're only allowed to use the manufacturer's app store or disc that have been sanctioned and authorized by the console manufacturer, it's gatekept that way.

If you even remotely care about any degree of "ownership", using that term specifically regarding software access control, you are only going to play stuff from GOG. You still don't own GOG games but at least they're DRM free.

This is categorically incorrect. I hope this is just ignorance on your part.

www.doesitplay.org/index

There are TONS of releases that are playable, offline, with no download required. IDK how much you remember of the PS3, but growing up I didnt have internet until about 2010. My PS3 ran games just fine. So I'm calling bullshit.

And you DO own GoG games. you buy it, it's DRM free, you have a license for personal use forever. I dont know how you consider that not ownership.

You also didnt answer the question, why would someone with blu rays not want a PS5 pro?

TheinsanegamerNThis is categorically incorrect. I hope this is just ignorance on your part.

www.doesitplay.org/index

There are TONS of releases that are playable, offline, with no download required. IDK how much you remember of the PS3, but growing up I didnt have internet until about 2010. My PS3 ran games just fine. So I'm calling bullshit.

And you DO own GoG games. you buy it, it's DRM free, you have a license for personal use forever. I dont know how you consider that not ownership.

It's good that you mention the PS3, it was the first Sony home console which started to demand mandatory system software upgrades for titles to boot. The game disc includes the update package for the minimum allowed system software version, but the patches and content update aren't and cannot be unless you have a copy of a much later reprint edition (usually labeled "Greatest Hits" or a special bundle edition (such as GTA IV's Episodes from Liberty City or Fallout New Vegas Ultimate Edition) that come already pre-patched and with the DLC pre-enabled. Otherwise, you are going to need internet access to download and patch - you will be denied access to PSN and restricted from updating your games unless your console is in the latest version of the system software. This is mandatory.

On handhelds it began earlier, works much in the same way - some UMDs required you to update your PSP's system software for them to run, otherwise you were denied access to the game. In almost all cases, this mandatory system software update aimed squarely at disabling jailbreaks and patching security loopholes in the console, essentially holding you hostage, you update, or else you're not allowed to play the game you just bought.

As for the content... another excellent example is the physical version of Minecraft for the PS3 (the on-disc version is almost an alpha build - according to the wiki, there were 75 title updates made availablebefore it was discontinued), or the disc-based versions of Borderlands 2 and Borderlands Pre-Sequel which, unpatched, lack lots of content, have no access to the hotfixes (which are live patches to the internal game files it downloads when you start the game - some bug fixes and rebalancing updates are included in these files), you lose access to things like Gearbox Shift etc. that even if you mean to strictly play alone, you're going to miss out simply because you don't have access to all that content.

Then there's the games that come with cross-gen "smart delivery", more common on Xbox - those are really just a worthless hardware DRM authorization key, the correct version for the console generation you own is downloaded from the store when you insert the disc. I still think anyone who genuinely has no access to the internet in 2024 should probably look at getting Starlink and if even that isn't feasible, idk man the PS2 is still as fun a console as it ever was.

So, are games playable off-disc? Yes*, with a moon-sized red asterisk. You are simply not going to have a great, much less complete, experience. In some cases, you might not be playing the same game as the other folks who have an internet connection are at all.

As for the DRM-free argument, it's important to differentiate "ownership" from "access control" - you do not own GOG games to any further extent than you own Steam, Epic or physical games. They are licensed to you and remain the property of its publisher. Being DRM-free just means that there is no copy protection and you can use it without any license restriction enforcement.

claylomaxNow PS bros can run Horizon at 60fps
Wow! :laugh:

I don't know what you mean, I already did with the original PS5

Oh right, at higher fidelity. Meh...

kapone32But nothing prevents you from doing exactly that. With GOG (before Covid) I used to have 3 or 4 of my work mates go in to buy 1 key for a Game (Witcher 3) and one of us would buy it the others would send whatever the percentage was and they would bring a USB drive in that everyone could use to install the Game and even get GOG support. You can select any GOG Game and all it will ask you is to link the exe file. That sounds pretty free to me. As to the piracy argument I really could care less. We are talking about things like the Atari 5200 or Jaguar. Some have PS2 but PS1 Games look terrible today. I also like to play the Games that I paid for 20 years ago that are great but then others like Flashback on the 3DO that I would not be easily be able to play.

That's very cool, but for all intents and purposes it's piracy, there just isn't anything to stop you.

Dr. DroThe game disc includes the update package for the minimum allowed system software version, but the patches and content update aren't and cannot be unless you have a copy of a much later reprint edition (usually labeled "Greatest Hits" or a special bundle edition (such as GTA IV's Episodes from Liberty City or Fallout New Vegas Ultimate Edition) that come already pre-patched and with the DLC pre-enabled. Otherwise, you are going to need internet access to download and patch - you will be denied access to PSN and restricted from updating your games unless your console is in the latest version of the system software. This is mandatory.

All you're saying makes a lot of a sense but I still like to keep physical media for my console. It has 3 main advantages: I can resell the games, it gives me a false sense of ownership and, if need be, will give me a moral high ground on pirating that game if/when it comes to that.

The only real valid point is the first, but I still like to have the other two as idiotic as it may sound.

trsttteI don't know what you mean, I already did with the original PS5

Oh right, at higher fidelity. Meh...



That's very cool, but for all intents and purposes it's piracy, there just isn't anything to stop you.



All you're saying makes a lot of a sense but I still like to keep physical media for my console. It has 3 main advantages: I can resell the games, it gives me a false sense of ownership and, if need be, will give me a moral high ground on pirating that game if/when it comes to that.

The only real valid point is the first, but I still like to have the other two as idiotic as it may sound.

I certainly understand your point of view, however, it also offers disadvantages, for example: if the media is damaged or lost, you lose access to your game until you can purchase another copy (which depending on the game's age, might be next to impossible or very costly), installation speeds tend to be absolute dreadful with less and less of the data being useful over time as patches change, add and replace assets and well, regarding the last... probably valid until recently, but jailbreaking them has become increasingly difficult. PS3's made after 2010 have their security undefeated (although ways to load homebrew have been found - true kernel access for a full CFW has not been achieved), the Xbox One's security wasn't defeated to this day, and I think there are very few valid exploits targeting very specific versions of the system software for the PS4, much less the PS4 Pro.

I'm all favorable to choice, but when it comes to a logical conclusion, games have largely moved away from the "static, read-only" nature they used to have and people with limited access to the internet nowadays are increasingly few, and a pro-spec console is about pushing the boundaries of technology for the masses, so I personally find it acceptable and agreeable that the disc drive is optional. If you need one, you buy one.

Dr. DroIt's good that you mention the PS3, it was the first Sony home console which started to demand mandatory system software upgrades for titles to boot. The game disc includes the update package for the minimum allowed system software version,

So, that has nothing to do with owning your software then? Good to know.

Dr. Drobut the patches and content update aren't and cannot be unless you have a copy of a much later reprint edition (usually labeled "Greatest Hits" or a special bundle edition (such as GTA IV's Episodes from Liberty City or Fallout New Vegas Ultimate Edition) that come already pre-patched and with the DLC pre-enabled. Otherwise, you are going to need internet access to download and patch - you will be denied access to PSN and restricted from updating your games unless your console is in the latest version of the system software. This is mandatory.

Again, this has nothing to do with owning the game you purchased and being able to play it. I can take any PS3, pop in a game on disk, and it will run. If it needs a firmware update, it is pulled from the disk, installed, and then the game runs. So no idea how you equate this with "no ownership".

Dr. DroOn handhelds it began earlier, works much in the same way - some UMDs required you to update your PSP's system software for them to run, otherwise you were denied access to the game. In almost all cases, this mandatory system software update aimed squarely at disabling jailbreaks and patching security loopholes in the console, essentially holding you hostage, you update, or else you're not allowed to play the game you just bought.

And, again, this did not stop you from playing the game YOU PHYSICALLY OWNED, because the PSP games included said firmware.

Dr. DroAs for the content... another excellent example is the physical version of Minecraft for the PS3 (the on-disc version is almost an alpha build - according to the wiki, there were 75 title updates made availablebefore it was discontinued), or the disc-based versions of Borderlands 2 and Borderlands Pre-Sequel which, unpatched, lack lots of content, have no access to the hotfixes (which are live patches to the internal game files it downloads when you start the game - some bug fixes and rebalancing updates are included in these files), you lose access to things like Gearbox Shift etc. that even if you mean to strictly play alone, you're going to miss out simply because you don't have access to all that content.

Google, what is the definition of a red herring argument?

"A red herring is a logical fallacy that involves diverting attention away from the main topic of an argument by introducing irrelevant information. Red herrings can be used intentionally or unintentionally."

The subject is ownership of your games. Downloading hotfixes and additional content is irrelevant. I can stick my copy of minecraft on PS3 in, right now, and play the version I bought new. Nothing is stopping me, or can stop me, from doing so. Ergo: I OWN that game. And if I connect to the internet, I can download tons of free updates, which is awesome! Doesnt change the fact I own the copy of the game and can play as I wish.

Dr. DroThen there's the games that come with cross-gen "smart delivery", more common on Xbox - those are really just a worthless hardware DRM authorization key, the correct version for the console generation you own is downloaded from the store when you insert the disc. I still think anyone who genuinely has no access to the internet in 2024 should probably look at getting Starlink and if even that isn't feasible, idk man the PS2 is still as fun a console as it ever was.

Yes, THOSE games cannot truly be owned, because you cannot physically own a full copy. Thing is, as the website I liked you to earlier (that apparently you didnt bother to read) states, this is a minority of games, many are still playable without downloads.

Dr. DroSo, are games playable off-disc? Yes*, with a moon-sized red asterisk. You are simply not going to have a great, much less complete, experience. In some cases, you might not be playing the same game as the other folks who have an internet connection are at all.

Your source for incomplete or poor experiences flies in the face of evidence I have proved you already. The counterpoints you use only continue to prove me right (firmware updates from the disk? Really? How does that mean you dont own it?). So, are you going to answer the question, which was "why would someone with blu rays not want a PS5 pro"? Or are you going to continue bringing up irrelevant counterpoints?

I'm seriously asking here: do you have some sort of mental impairment? Do you not speak English well? Is there some reason you cannot read a question and answer it without a multi paragraph unrelated rant? I refuse to believe you are just so dense you cannot understand the question.

Dr. DroAs for the DRM-free argument, it's important to differentiate "ownership" from "access control" - you do not own GOG games to any further extent than you own Steam, Epic or physical games. They are licensed to you and remain the property of its publisher. Being DRM-free just means that there is no copy protection and you can use it without any license restriction enforcement.

So, you posses a physical copy of the game, with which you can do anything you want with it or mod it as you see fit, and you can install it anywhere you want, because the license allows you and cannot be revoked. For GoG, I posses the .iso, I can install the software anywhere, I can back it up physically, over a network, wherever.

We have a word for that. It's called OWNERSHIP.

"Ownership is the legal right to use, possess, and give away a thing. Ownership can be tangible such as personal property and land, or it can be of intangible things such as intellectual property rights."

www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ownership

If I posses a copy of a game, and can use it how I please, that is ownership. I know you like to redefine words, but that argument isnt working here. And in countries outside of the US, this is backed by law, they DO own said property. This normalization of "you will own nothing" is complete and total BS and needs to be put in its place.

So, please, answer the question: why would someone who wants a PS5 pro not want ownership of their games via physical media?

Never mind, I tried to make a case in good faith but given the sheer amount of forum fights I find myself getting involved with lately, I don't think I'm going to answer any further. Anything I had to say was written above, whether you choose to recognize pros, cons, and possible caveats is beyond me, I just don't think I appreciate the "mental impairment" remark.

Dr. Droif the media is damaged or lost, you lose access to your game until you can purchase another copy

No I don't :D (I may not be able to play on my console but I can't download the game for PC now that more and more games are available on both platforms)

Dr. DroPS3's made after 2010 have their security undefeated (although ways to load homebrew have been found - true kernel access for a full CFW has not been achieved), the Xbox One's security wasn't defeated to this day, and I think there are very few valid exploits targeting very specific versions of the system software for the PS4, much less the PS4 Pro.

That's a good point, which is terrible for game preservation. There's a lot of historic games that are not possible to play anymore through "legitimate" means - and use I double quotes because for me it's completely acceptable to pirate and emulate those games, even when new remasters are available I don't believe in eternal copyrights nor think cashgrab pratices should be rewarded or incentivized. Many may not subscribe to these morals - the law for a big part doesn't - but that's my take.

On a slight tangent I think it also goes to show that if the service improves the incentive to jailbreak and pirate games goes down incredibly. Digital distribution lowered the barrier to get new games a lot and having updates available makes it a better service than getting a pirated copy of dubious quality. Subscription models, predatory as they might be, also further improved the availability of games.

TheinsanegamerNThe subject is ownership of your games. Downloading hotfixes and additional content is irrelevant. I can stick my copy of minecraft on PS3 in, right now, and play the version I bought new. Nothing is stopping me, or can stop me, from doing so. Ergo: I OWN that game. And if I connect to the internet, I can download tons of free updates, which is awesome! Doesnt change the fact I own the copy of the game and can play as I wish.

The argument is that given the status in which games are released that doesn't always ammount to all that much. Taking the PS3 examples, there are dozens of games that lost their updates when Sony tried to shutter the store for the console [see here: forum.psnprofiles.com/topic/105801-no-patches-for-some-ps3-games/]. You can still play the disc you have but that may be quite bad, for example Cyberpunk, the disc version is pretty worthless. That's not the situation with all games, but it's not that uncommon - setting the bar at playability makes it seem less common but that's really the bare miminum, that some games fail even that is the real tragedy.

Bought every PS and iteration of. This is my first skip.

Weak upgrade and absolutely unjustifiable price hike.

FOR THE RICHEST !!

I currently have all parts other than a graphics card to build my own living room PC that would be more than capable of native 4K. I just don’t know if I want to deal with it and just buy a console.

Notice how they are 50 enhanced games and not 50 new games

RavenasI currently have all parts other than a graphics card to build my own living room PC that would be more than capable of native 4K. I just don’t know if I want to deal with it and just buy a console.

Better go for pc, more enjoyable, "everyday you learn something new" and useful , games less expensive than consoles, better graphics, upgradable, all games are on pc with some pc exclusivities even sony's best exclusiv games comes to pc 6 mounth/ a year after, its up to you but my advice is clearly the pc !!