So here is something I cannot get my head around it.
TSMC is a Taiwanese company, not a USA company, right? Then, how in the world does TSMC have to obey the pro-russian US of A sanctions?? What gives?!
How can USA dictates other country's export and restrictions?!?

Prima.VeraSo here is something I cannot get my head around it.
TSMC is a Taiwanese company, not a USA company, right? Then, how in the world does TSMC have to obey the pro-russian US of A sanctions?? What gives?!
How can USA dictates other country's export and restrictions?!?

TSMC was founded purposely to turn Taiwan into the world's semiconductor powerhouse that every other country would become dependent on.
By creating that dependency, TSMC ensured that it's in the best interests of those countries to ensure TSMC's - and Taiwan's - continued existence.
A mutually beneficial relationship: the world gets semiconductors, Taiwan gets protection from the PRC.
And the country that is both the largest consumer of semiconductors, and has the largest and most powerful military in the world?
The USA.

So when the latter tells TSMC to jump, TSMC says "how high?"

AssimilatorTSMC was founded purposely to turn Taiwan into the world's semiconductor powerhouse that every other country would become dependent on.
By creating that dependency, TSMC ensured that it's in the best interests of those countries to ensure TSMC's - and Taiwan's - continued existence.
A mutually beneficial relationship: the world gets semiconductors, Taiwan gets protection from the PRC.
And the country that is both the largest consumer of semiconductors, and has the largest and most powerful military in the world?
The USA.

So when the latter tells TSMC to jump, TSMC says "how high?"

In addition to that, after WWII the US was made the defacto ocean police in regards to things like piracy. If you want that protection, your country has to play ball with the US' demands.

Prima.VeraSo here is something I cannot get my head around it.
TSMC is a Taiwanese company, not a USA company, right? Then, how in the world does TSMC have to obey the pro-russian US of A sanctions?? What gives?!
How can USA dictates other country's export and restrictions?!?

The US has the power to implement export controls and, if your country/company violates them, the US can impose sanctions and fines on you as well.

For taiwan, said sanctions would be a literal death knell, as the US navy serves as the strongest deterrent to a PRC invasion, and the US is TSMC's largest market. The US could effectively prevent TSMC from selling anything in the US and fine the taiwanese government for violating the export controls. You can see that in europe when countries tried to get around the Russian gas and oil ban.

When it comes to economics and culture, the US is the 900lb gorilla in the room.

TheinsanegamerNIn addition to that, after WWII the US was made the defacto ocean police in regards to things like piracy. If you want that protection, your country has to play ball with the US' demands.

And that works, as long as those demands are reasonable ("a rising tide lifts all boats"). Lately, that has not been the case.

All of this nonsense will continue with the current crop of worldwide leaders. It will take decades if not centuries for humans to end their national centric views and stop fighting over what amounts to table scraps in the grand scheme of our galaxy.

DavenAll of this nonsense will continue with the current crop of worldwide leaders. It will take decades if not centuries for humans to end their national centric views and stop fighting over what amounts to table scraps in the grand scheme of our galaxy.

Yeah....no. Humans are not going to stop caring about their nation to worry more about the globe anytime soon, if ever. People in Paris are not going to be more concerned over something in China over what is happening in their backyard.

AssimilatorAnd that works, as long as those demands are reasonable ("a rising tide lifts all boats"). Lately, that has not been the case.

That's what happens when no one else can fill those shoes. The world will saber rattle about how the US is "mean" and wanting to move away, until the moment that support begins to end, then the wailing and concessions will begin. Nobody has even a fraction the power to replace the US in terms of power projection.

We all saw what that looked like in Trumps first term, where Merkel and her ilk were perfectly comfortable slagging off the US, until we mentioned reducing our NATO contribution, at which point those same leaders were begging on their knees for us to reconsider. The same will happen here, a week of pirates capturing shipping vessels and any country that tries to go it alone will be doing everything int heir power to get the US to intervene on their behalf again.

TheinsanegamerNThat's what happens when no one else can fill those shoes. The world will saber rattle about how the US is "mean" and wanting to move away, until the moment that support begins to end, then the wailing and concessions will begin. Nobody has even a fraction the power to replace the US in terms of power projection.

We all saw what that looked like in Trumps first term, where Merkel and her ilk were perfectly comfortable slagging off the US, until we mentioned reducing our NATO contribution, at which point those same leaders were begging on their knees for us to reconsider. The same will happen here, a week of pirates capturing shipping vessels and any country that tries to go it alone will be doing everything int heir power to get the US to intervene on their behalf again.

What you ignore is that when the rest of the world abrogated the responsibility for policing to the USA, the world as a whole - including the USA - became less likely to go to war, because fewer nations had weapons of mass destruction. Now every nation in Europe is lining up at France's door to convince them to share their nukes. There's no objective measure by which you can claim that's a safer and better world.

Ultimately the US's current insanity is going to drive Europe closer together, the result of which will be another competitor where there's currently only the PRC.

For the record, I have long believed that Europe needs to stop depending on the USA so heavily, and get its defence spending up to NATO-mandated levels. We've had over a decade since Putin showed his intentions and apparently European politicians' strategy for dealing with that was "sit on our hands on let the USA do it". No, Russia is a European problem, it always has been and it will continue to be until that nation either ceases to exist, or is convinced to be something better than a nuclear-armed third-world s**thole.

So we are clear, this is about the Chinese circumventing trade restrictions by setting up illegal shell companies, because their semi-competing offering has such poor yields that it does not compete.

I believe we were discussing that exact topic in the thread relating the Chinese EUV technology, and the point was made there that China, or more specifically the CCP, was going to overpower the west and develop their own superior technology. At the same time, day after day, we learn that the CCP's guidance is making it less and less possible that China competes effectively, because they reward people who figure out how to circumvent laws better than those who invest in technology.


I'd love to hear about Team America, World Police. I'd love to hear about how Europe should get off their butts. I love that Scandanavia (look up Finland's President) understands Putin. All of that is secondary to the point that another illegal set of shell companies are how the CCP responds to sanctions...because despite having many fabs they cannot reliably produce tech that hasn't basically reached commodity pricing. It's almost like, heaven forbid, the CCP is taking millions of post doctorates and enormous mineral wealth, and still cannot function as a competing option against the west. Of course, that's entirely opposite the island nation of Taiwan...which despite everything is pretty dang capable of pumping out chips despite having way less people, resources, and is under the constant military threat of a power that wants to take away that ability to hopefully make it their own with violence.



As a student of history, it's like the Chinese people who took over Taiwan, but went capitalist, are experiencing a lot more success.

Zero news so far. Only a fool would think China comply with international rules.

How would tsmc not know they are making a chip they made before for someone again but are selling it trough someone else?

there is quite a lot of work and people involved is making a chip.

lilhasselhofferSo we are clear, this is about the Chinese circumventing trade restrictions by setting up illegal shell companies, because their semi-competing offering has such poor yields that it does not compete.

I believe we were discussing that exact topic in the thread relating the Chinese EUV technology, and the point was made there that China, or more specifically the CCP, was going to overpower the west and develop their own superior technology. At the same time, day after day, we learn that the CCP's guidance is making it less and less possible that China competes effectively, because they reward people who figure out how to circumvent laws better than those who invest in technology.


I'd love to hear about Team America, World Police. I'd love to hear about how Europe should get off their butts. I love that Scandanavia (look up Finland's President) understands Putin. All of that is secondary to the point that another illegal set of shell companies are how the CCP responds to sanctions...because despite having many fabs they cannot reliably produce tech that hasn't basically reached commodity pricing. It's almost like, heaven forbid, the CCP is taking millions of post doctorates and enormous mineral wealth, and still cannot function as a competing option against the west. Of course, that's entirely opposite the island nation of Taiwan...which despite everything is pretty dang capable of pumping out chips despite having way less people, resources, and is under the constant military threat of a power that wants to take away that ability to hopefully make it their own with violence.



As a student of history, it's like the Chinese people who took over Taiwan, but went capitalist, are experiencing a lot more success.

You really don't understand anything, stick with the history, maybe here you will have success, but most likely not with this biased brainwashed personality. The reason for China's lag of advanced lithography is because for decades they worked together with the rest of the world to research and develop the machines that ASML manufacture, it is property of many countries. US stole this property and now China lose all this years and they must to start from far away. The only illegal thing here is the existing of the fascist US that is not better the famous artist, just speak how democratic and free is, while it is complete loser that even don't own nor the ASML's machines, nor the technology behind it, nor anything because most of the innovations are stolen or researched by other country's scientists, including China's one.

NoneRainZero news so far. Only a fool would think China comply with international rules.

When US don't, why should they?

@Assimilator and @TheinsanegamerN , considering the current Global situation, do you really think that Putin's orange lap dog would come to Taiwan's aid, considering how he betrayed all Free World by blaming Ukraine for the Russian invasion and siding with the latter?? Do you really think anyone trusts USA anymore after their president callously betrayed the World?
I don't want to turn this into a political debate, however trusting USA to protect Taiwan right now is not only wishful thinking, but naive from all points of view.

TheinsanegamerNYeah....no. Humans are not going to stop caring about their nation to worry more about the globe anytime soon, if ever.

I literally said the EXACT same thing in my comment.

Prima.Vera@Assimilator and @TheinsanegamerN , considering the current Global situation, do you really think that Putin's orange lap dog would come to Taiwan's aid, considering how he betrayed all Free World by blaming Ukraine for the Russian invasion and siding with the latter?? Do you really think anyone trusts USA anymore after their president callously betrayed the World?
I don't want to turn this into a political debate, however trusting USA to protect Taiwan right now is not only wishful thinking, but naive from all points of view.

The underlying problem is that the USA has never been a reliable partner; it has demonstrated, multiple times since WWII, that its only concern is the USA. The rest of the Western world has simply been fortunate that, overall, their interests have broadly aligned with the USA's. But since 2016 this has very obviously no longer been true, which is one of the reasons I'm mystified by the EU's failure to start building its military to superpower levels. It's not as if we don't have the tech, we definitely do, and in some regards we have even better tech than the USA (see for example the FREMM frigates that the USN is buying because they forgot how to design good warships since the end of the Cold War). Yes, there are some areas where the USA is streets ahead of everyone e.g. the F-35 but if the EU actually puts its head down and gets on with actually remilitarising, I don't see any reason it cannot produce similar-quality weaponry in a decade or so.

Regarding Taiwan, I'm honestly not even sure why they started building fabs on US soil, because that just weakens their bargaining position if the PRC decides to invade. I rather suspect that, like every other idiot politician in the world, TSMC's management assumed that a fascist like Trump could never again come to power in the USA. Then they simply got greedy for some CHIPS act money.

I would not put any money on the USA coming to Taiwan's defence if the PRC invades. Fascists like Trump respect other fascists like Putin and Xi, when those other fascists do things that make them seem strong they do nothing (this is because all fascists are ultimately cowards afraid of each other), so if the PRC does invade Trump will probably literally s**t himself. Taiwan is very much on its own right now, if they are smart they will be talking to France and Israel about getting nukes, because they have seen exactly what happens to nations that don't have them and are bordered by hostile neighbours (Ukraine, Russia). I suspect that other south-east Asian democracies like Japan and South Korea are having the same thoughts.

And even if Trump was removed tomorrow, the damage is done. Liker Buffet said, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and 5 minutes to destroy it; the USA spent the better part of a century building that relationship with other democracies, it only took 4 years and counting of fascism to utterly destroy it and drag us into a new world that is somehow less safe and secure than during the height of the Cold War. Good job, American voters.

Prima.Vera@Assimilator and @TheinsanegamerN , considering the current Global situation, do you really think that Putin's orange lap dog would come to Taiwan's aid, considering how he betrayed all Free World by blaming Ukraine for the Russian invasion and siding with the latter?? Do you really think anyone trusts USA anymore after their president callously betrayed the World?
I don't want to turn this into a political debate, however trusting USA to protect Taiwan right now is not only wishful thinking, but naive from all points of view.

Funny. Not the haha, more of the face palm variety.

Let's talk about Europe. 30 years where defense spending was a joke. 30 years where the amount of military hardware went downhill so heavily, that the entire EU fighting against Russia would have an equal quantity of equipment. 30 years of Germany being unable to procure military hardware because their negotiations worked such that by the time any proposals could be made, and funding secured, the budget would evaporate and they'd be stuck with the same aging hardware (seriously, look into it. Year to qualify, funding only lasts one year, so any proposal that could pass had no funding). 30 years of the Fins and Poles suggesting to their European brethren that Russia was being run by someone who had intentions on rebuilding the glorious USSR. 30 years.

In that time Europe has developed and deployed some cool crap. The US has designed and retired crappy boats that mixed and matched metals to save cost, and invested in planes to deliver overwhelming power. The entire world has witnessed that the US will absolutely float a carrier battle group through international waters to make sure that the open seas remain open. Europe has spent 30 years breaking down the term fascist, to mean anyone right of center leaning politically, and has decided that their politics are unassailable while everyone else in the world is not as good. If you want an example, then I'll suggest Barrack Obama's election was absolutely something Germans gushed over, while Americans in Germany were looked at oddly because we simply looked back at them and said "it's just another politician." 30 years of not defending themselves, and simply assuming the US would bail them out, while they told Americans exactly how much of a set of monsters they were for killing people...while their ancestors were happily participating in the crusades.

Maybe, just maybe, the US is tired of spending our money on protecting a bunch of people who are eternally angry that we are fascists the second we don't agree with taking care of everyone. A luxury that most Europeans have, because a large chunk of their spending is not going to keeping the bad people away. Maybe we're tired of nations that actively support bad people, telling us that we're the evil giant because right now they are making lots of money and only later will they decide to join us when the money deals go south. Lookin' at you German automotive industry. Maybe it's getting a little bit frustrating when the Philippines have government that undermines free trade until the people they get in bed with hurt them, then come running back for papa USA to defend them from paying the piper for putting the dick in dictator.


Funny. It seems like Europeans always have a bunch to bitch and moan about, but when the crap hits the fan it's always the US that they assume will move their bacon out of the fire. It's also funny to see that when one person from the US has a negative experience, because he believes that his people are entitled to endless aide, with you having to add up the whole of Europe to match the contributions of just the US, that it's because orange man = fascist. Let me also suggest orange man is who the people wanted after four years of a semi-comatose president who kept plowing money into aide without even slowing down to consider a balanced budget was a bit silly...while Europeans regularly come to balanced budgets because they give naught but a fraction of what the warmongering US gives...

Yeah, maybe the US is tired of trying to play by the rules. Maybe it's tired of having China give us the finger over their ten-dash crap, and have nobody really able to help project freedom of navigation. It's tired of playing inside it's laws, instead of going CIA levels of scorched earth and deciding agent orange needs a sequel. It's tired of having to constantly up cybersecurity and deal with some jag-offs deciding to scrape anchors across the ocean to try and destroy cables...because breaking things is infinitely easier than building. Maybe they're tired of the Chinese deciding to use crooked systems to build shell companies, where the solution should be simply not shipping anything, because killing an industry is much easier than targeted crippling. Maybe we want to use the napalm to burn this ant hill, instead of the "good" version where we try and be a considerate international partner, while we watch everyone else act as though our work means nothing as both origin of the technological research and origin of defense is ignored, because we've been good at the whole "talk s***, get hit" and "ain't nothing goin' if nothin' starts" school of dealing with armed conflict.
Maybe it's time to setup the whole "flagship USA" that a true isolationist fascist might. I'd love to see Putin and China simply curb stomp everyone around them...because everybody in the surrounding areas suddenly had to actually consider their actions instead of knowing who to call. Of course, that truth escapes people standing on the high morale ground. The same ground that views shell companies getting around embargoes as "what should happen, so you stop hording the technology you should share with everyone at no cost, while they contribute nothing to its development."