The question is if the export restrictions will hinder China in the long run, or if the nation will simply push ahead and develop its own, competing semiconductor manufacturing tools.

It's just a matter of when, not if.

Based!

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

BwazeThey could also bomb Chinese semiconductor facilities, right? It is, after all, trade war, not trade dispute or trade competition?

Let's not be silly, now. There is also such a thing as a war of words. The word has many uses, i.e., the war on drugs (fiscal/judicial). It does not necessarily have to be physical conflict.

join US, forced by US....either way

L'Eliminateurwhat daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

It has to do with three factors.

1. China is involved in rampant IP theft.
2. Several products made in China have had backdoors installed by their military.
3. COVID showed us the fragility of supply lines from there.

It's not just the US. Multiple countries have been advocating this because of 1 and 2 for some time now.

In the end this had to happen. Sorry you have to pay more for electronics oh well. Upgrade less maybe or game at less details.

Stupidity of brain-dead leaders. Seems to be a leader in politics or a company, most important skill is to have the lowest IQ possible.

SOAREVERSORIt has to do with three factors.

1. China is involved in rampant IP theft.
2. Several products made in China have had backdoors installed by their military.
3. COVID showed us the fragility of supply lines from there.

It's not just the US. Multiple countries have been advocating this because of 1 and 2 for some time now.

In the end this had to happen. Sorry you have to pay more for electronics oh well. Upgrade less maybe or game at less details.

This. The criticism that is most interesting imho on the current 'China moves' is that "we'll also lose access to what China makes". And this is true, but it is also inevitable, because we have learned by now that China isn't a trustworthy business partner. Its that simple. We've held on to that status quo for far too long and its how we got here.

I honestly cannot understand though how that irrational fear of having to pay more or 'not having something available now' is such a major issue. History is chock full of those times and situations, and that's when countries, people, and international relations start to excel. We're seeing that happen right now. Yes, we sacrifice a few certainties we've had recently. So what, that's life.

There is also still a group of people that still think trade is the only way to have peace. But that's just not true. Trade is a way to have diplomacy. We'll never have peace as long as we are a globe of nations with their own desires, goals, and competition. Even diplomacy/spoken and written word is a form of warfare, as is technology more now than ever. War can exist with or without diplomacy, but diplomacy still opens up ways to resolve conflicts. Whereas if you're not talking, you're not resolving anything.

I'm glad to live in 2022-2023 where we get this reality check again, it was long overdue.

a bit too late me thinks

L'Eliminateurwhat daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

I rather pay more than have CCP s**t in my hardware/software.

The only one here that really matters is the Netherlands because that's where all of the silicon fabrication hardware comes from.

the54thvoidLet's not be silly, now. There is also such a thing as a war of words. The word has many uses, i.e., the war on drugs (fiscal/judicial). It does not necessarily have to be physical conflict.

Hi,
There is also something called espionage and sabotage which are frankly really easy anywhere but China :laugh:

Too late.. Market this is all ready flooded with fake or replicates of branded transistors, MOSFET, IC and more.
The Chinese did their worst all ready.

Whether or not we lose access to what China produces (we won't, because foreign trade is far too large a component of their economy), the intent of these trade blocks is to limit Chinese advancement/limit access to IP to steal.

1) I don't care about IP theft and you shouldn't either, unless you own a patent. Willing to bet most reading this don't. You aren't a corporation, and protecting the profits of a company you have nothing to do with is bizarre.

2) This will only accelerate Chinese advancement in the long run. Something like a baby bird getting kicked out of the nest or kicking a kid out of the house when they turn 18. But unlike a baby bird or a kid, China is an entire country. It won't fail or die; it will, collectively, adjust to the new restrictions and new difficulty. It'll become stronger, which it would either way, now it'll just do it faster and be more independent in the future.

I've been saying this for several years now, and anyone who thinks anything other than that will happen, feel free to come back and tell me "you told me so" in a few years' time. These trade limitations will only accelerate Chinese advancement because it forces them to figure things out on their own. That's not a good or bad thing, that's just how it's going to go.

LionheartI rather pay more than have CCP s**t in my hardware/software.

The CCP can't kick your California door in at 3AM for wrongthink against the current US regime. Feds can. This whole "hurr durr CCP backdoors are dangerous" thing is such blatant propaganda. American chip manufacturers are required to put backdoors into their hardware and tech companies in general are forced to comply. Look at what happened to Qwest's CEO when he found out about NSA spying on their network and tried to stop it. He was arrested for "insider trading" and denied bail by the Supreme Court of the United States on *the same day*. That court takes years to handle things, but someone who tried to stop illegal fed spying gets railroaded in a day.

Feds are a threat. American backdoors are a threat. To you, personally. Chinese backdoors aren't.

WorringlyIndifferentWhether or not we lose access to what China produces (we won't, because foreign trade is far too large a component of their economy), the intent of these trade blocks is to limit Chinese advancement/limit access to IP to steal.

1) I don't care about IP theft and you shouldn't either, unless you own a patent. Willing to bet most reading this don't. You aren't a corporation, and protecting the profits of a company you have nothing to do with is bizarre.

2) This will only accelerate Chinese advancement in the long run. Something like a baby bird getting kicked out of the nest or kicking a kid out of the house when they turn 18. But unlike a baby bird or a kid, China is an entire country. It won't fail or die; it will, collectively, adjust to the new restrictions and new difficulty. It'll become stronger, which it would either way, now it'll just do it faster and be more independent in the future.

I've been saying this for several years now, and anyone who thinks anything other than that will happen, feel free to come back and tell me "you told me so" in a few years' time. These trade limitations will only accelerate Chinese advancement because it forces them to figure things out on their own. That's not a good or bad thing, that's just how it's going to go.


The CCP can't kick your California door in at 3AM for wrongthink against the current US regime. Feds can. This whole "hurr durr CCP backdoors are dangerous" thing is such blatant propaganda. American chip manufacturers are required to put backdoors into their hardware and tech companies in general are forced to comply. Look at what happened to Qwest's CEO when he found out about NSA spying on their network and tried to stop it. He was arrested for "insider trading" and denied bail by the Supreme Court of the United States on *the same day*. That court takes years to handle things, but someone who tried to stop illegal fed spying gets railroaded in a day.

Feds are a threat. American backdoors are a threat. To you, personally. Chinese backdoors aren't.

You're never going to convince the average American with something like "logic". You should know better than that! :laugh:

SOAREVERSORIt has to do with three factors.

1. China is involved in rampant IP theft.
2. Several products made in China have had backdoors installed by their military.
3. COVID showed us the fragility of supply lines from there.

It's not just the US. Multiple countries have been advocating this because of 1 and 2 for some time now.

In the end this had to happen. Sorry you have to pay more for electronics oh well. Upgrade less maybe or game at less details.

#2 is bullshit, as several other's said, those 3-letter agencies from the US are FAR more damaging and dangerous.
Just because a company (like huawei) has ties to the chinese military(pray tell me which US company has NO ties to either military or shady 3-letter agencies) does not mean they'll put "mysterious backdoors".
Remember which state had advanced hacking and backdoors installed on Cisco/other gear intercepted enroute, absolutely illegally and morally bankrupt, oh yes, it was the NSA....
Or which one tapped in the private internal network or companies(again, the NSA!) by tapping the fiber links, or worst, mandating "NSA secret rooms" inside companies and force them to move their traffic through there....

Yeah, i rather have my cheap electronics, i don't want nor HAVE to make any "sacrifices" just so some faceles western corpo and their spook friends gets fatter

Hi,
Hard to take many people here seriously when selecting a region in user panel is to tough :kookoo:

Lots of... controversial comments here. As a Dutch person I'm just going to go ahead and say that this is probably a good thing. Unless China backs down with their aggression you have to respond to their aggression with your own aggression. Doing an ostrich is not going to be helpful here as history has shown many times.

I'm saddened that we did this only because the US did so and effectively we had to get coerced (in the nicest way) to do this and that we didn't do it ourselves (or through EU).

Selling technological marvels to China is, imo, the pinnacle of shortsightedness. All to make a penny now for China to eventually start competing in the long run (with state funding).

Dimitrimana bit too late me thinks

Yeah. It won't be possible to keep down 2nd economy with 1.4 billion people. And I really wanna know what will happen when India starts doing the same, considering their current course.

L'Eliminateurwhat daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

Talk about yourself. I don't like unsecured disposable garbage, not to mention it's fruit of slave labor.

WorringlyIndifferentThe CCP can't kick your California door in at 3AM for wrongthink against the current US regime. Feds can. This whole "hurr durr CCP backdoors are dangerous" thing is such blatant propaganda. American chip manufacturers are required to put backdoors into their hardware and tech companies in general are forced to comply. Look at what happened to Qwest's CEO when he found out about NSA spying on their network and tried to stop it. He was arrested for "insider trading" and denied bail by the Supreme Court of the United States on *the same day*. That court takes years to handle things, but someone who tried to stop illegal fed spying gets railroaded in a day.

Feds are a threat. American backdoors are a threat. To you, personally. Chinese backdoors aren't.

For the people at least it's patriotic spying, homegrowned local sourced spying. And better for the environment if you don't have to import it in containers from the other side of the world.

For the government is like that guy that beats his kids but don't allow no one else to do it.

kiriakostToo late.. Market this is all ready flooded with fake or replicates of branded transistors, MOSFET, IC and more.
The Chinese did their worst all ready.

What is too late according to you? China has no EUV production capacity, nor supply chain, and the latter is as important as the former. They say they've made a scanner, was a recent news post even, now let's see them make chips on that scanner ;) I'll predict right now its not going to be economically viable IF they're even functional at any cutting edge node size.

The market is flooded with current-and last gen chips, but the world will move on, with or without China producing their archaic stuff in the future.

Sorry but I don't hate Chinese people. And no amount of government shilling will change my mind. I don't want to isolate them in any manner, and I do want them to be a part of the "global community", of science, research and everything else they can contribute towards.

And I don't give a crap about the west's problems with the politics of Chinese leadership. I'm seeing happy Chinese people who are satisfied with their lives in China and that is all that matters. Chinese people are allowed to leave China contrary to North Koreans with their country. That is all that matters, it's a free country. Freedom in a western definition means something completely different, and these traditional eastern countries will never accept "western freedom". Western freedom is a bit more than simple freedom...

ArgyrSorry but I don't hate Chinese people. And no amount of government shilling will change my mind. I don't want to isolate them in any manner, and I do want them to be a part of the "global community", of science, research and everything else they can contribute towards.

And I don't give a crap about the west's problems with the politics of Chinese leadership. I'm seeing happy Chinese people who are satisfied with their lives in China and that is all that matters. Chinese people are allowed to leave China contrary to North Koreans with their country. That is all that matters, it's a free country. Freedom in a western definition means something completely different, and these traditional eastern countries will never accept "western freedom". Western freedom is a bit more than simple freedom...

No one hates chinese people, or russian people. Almost everyone hates the respective mafias that control and steal from them. Governments are all a temporarily necessary evil, some just more evil than others.

phanbueyNo one hates chinese people, or russian people.

categorically false.

respective mafias that control and steal from them

as if the west wasn't corrupt to the bone. just look at the current scandal in EU parliament. A huge chunk of politicians have accepted bribes from Qatar, they found 600k Euros in luggage at the home of one of the politicians. These were the politicians who called everyone not to their liking corrupt. You are delusional if you believe in any sort of western moral superiority