Monday, April 29th 2024
Intel Statement on Stability Issues: "Motherboard Makers to Blame"
A couple of weeks ago, we reported on NVIDIA directing users of Intel's 13th Generation Raptor Lake and 14th Generation Raptor Lake Refresh CPUs to consult Intel for any issues with system stability. Motherboard makers, by default, often run the CPU outside of Intel's recommended specifications, overvolting the CPU through modifying voltage curves, automatic overclocks, and removing power limits.
Today, we learned that Igor's Lab has obtained a statement from Intel that the company prepared for motherboard OEMs regarding the issues multiple users report. Intel CPUs come pre-programmed with a stock voltage curve. When motherboard makers remove power limits and automatically adjust voltage curves and frequency targets, the CPU can be pushed outside its safe operating range, possibly causing system instability. Intel has set up a dedicated website for users to report their issues and offer support. Manufacturers like GIGABYTE have already issued new BIOS updates for users to achieve maximum stability, which incidentally has recent user reports of still being outside Intel spec, setting PL2 to 188 W, loadlines to 1.7/1.7 and current limit to 249 A. While MSI provided a blog post tutorial for stability. ASUS has published updated BIOS for its motherboards to reflect on this Intel baseline spec as well. Surprisingly, not all the revised BIOS values match up with the Intel Baseline Profile spec for these various new BIOS updates from different vendors. You can read the statement from Intel in the quote below.
Source:
Igor's Lab
Today, we learned that Igor's Lab has obtained a statement from Intel that the company prepared for motherboard OEMs regarding the issues multiple users report. Intel CPUs come pre-programmed with a stock voltage curve. When motherboard makers remove power limits and automatically adjust voltage curves and frequency targets, the CPU can be pushed outside its safe operating range, possibly causing system instability. Intel has set up a dedicated website for users to report their issues and offer support. Manufacturers like GIGABYTE have already issued new BIOS updates for users to achieve maximum stability, which incidentally has recent user reports of still being outside Intel spec, setting PL2 to 188 W, loadlines to 1.7/1.7 and current limit to 249 A. While MSI provided a blog post tutorial for stability. ASUS has published updated BIOS for its motherboards to reflect on this Intel baseline spec as well. Surprisingly, not all the revised BIOS values match up with the Intel Baseline Profile spec for these various new BIOS updates from different vendors. You can read the statement from Intel in the quote below.
Intel has observed that this issue may be related to out of specification operating conditions resulting in sustained high voltage and frequency during periods of elevated heat.
Analysis of affected processors shows some parts experience shifts in minimum operating voltages which may be related to operation outside of Intel specified operating conditions.
While the root cause has not yet been identified, Intel has observed the majority of reports of this issue are from users with unlocked/overclock capable motherboards.
Intel has observed 600/700 Series chipset boards often set BIOS defaults to disable thermal and power delivery safeguards designed to limit processor exposure to sustained periods of high voltage and frequency, for example:Intel requests system and motherboard manufacturers to provide end users with a default BIOS profile that matches Intel recommended settings.
- Disabling Current Excursion Protection (CEP)
- Enabling the IccMax Unlimited bit
- Disabling Thermal Velocity Boost (TVB) and/or Enhanced Thermal Velocity Boost (eTVB)
- Additional settings which may increase the risk of system instability:
- Disabling C-states
- Using Windows Ultimate Performance mode
- Increasing PL1 and PL2 beyond Intel recommended limits
Intel strongly recommends customer's default BIOS settings should ensure operation within Intel's recommended settings.
In addition, Intel strongly recommends motherboard manufacturers to implement warnings for end users alerting them to any unlocked or overclocking feature usage.
Intel is continuing to actively investigate this issue to determine the root cause and will provide additional updates as relevant information becomes available.
Intel will be publishing a public statement regarding issue status and Intel recommended BIOS setting recommendations targeted for May 2024.
272 Comments on Intel Statement on Stability Issues: "Motherboard Makers to Blame"
For people saying that this is to make Intel look better in benchmarks - not really, it’s an incidental byproduct, why this was originally and still is done by vendors is to differentiate positively their motherboards from competitors by claiming they are faster, even though it is obviously nonsense to anyone with basic knowledge of hardware and at default spec all MoBos SHOULD, in fact, perform identically.Yes and no. PL2 (not PL1 - that’s base TDP usually ) in Intels understanding isn’t something that should be sustained indefinitely, or at least it wasn’t originally.
Since Intel's performance Index listed PL1 = 253W , not PL2
And yes, this is absolutely all about Intel not losing to AMD in benchmarks. It's worth more than 10% in some benchmarks!
Huh, you are right, actually. They did put PL1=PL2 for all K models. That’s just silly and defeats the purpose of having two PLs in the first place. What the actual fuck.
"Power Plan set to High Performance; Power Mode set to High Performance"
In fairness, this may only apply to Windows 10, as the power plan Intel specifically mentions is the Windows Ultimate Performance Mode.
First they say it is influenced by two other parameters.
Then they say this limit can be exceeded.
Then they say it is configurable by system vendor and can be system specific.
So I do not think Intel has any REAL CLEARLY DEFINED "IN SPEC" POWER LIMIT.
Edit: Yes PL4 is the limit for transients if you enable it.
What Intel is guilty of is deceit by omission which is not illegal but it is morally ambiguous.
Saying Intel doesn't have a spec is a bit disingenuous.
Enable Current Excursion Protection (CEP)
Disable IccMax Unlimited Bit
Enable Thermal Velocity Boost (TVB)
Enable Enhanced Thermal Velocity Boost (eTVB)
Enable C-States
I can only assume that some or all motherboard OEMs are not following the guidelines for these settings as well as the more publicised wattage settings and turbo durations when using default settings.
And we need to remember, the AUTO setting does not always do what you think it does, so manually setting these settings to Intels guidelines is the only way to ensure they are set correctly. I know you and W1zzard know this, but most other people do not, and trust the AUTO setting to do what's best.
Looking at the Intel website there is 93 datapoints of 14900k listing PL1=253W, and 99 datapoints listing 13900k with PL1=253W
Even the 12900k received PL1= 241W treatment.
However, when Intel reiterates to motherboard manufacturers to use the default spec option that Intel set (the same one that has been around since the launch of these CPUs), and then the motherboard manufacturers still do not comply with this spec, and instead continue to make up numbers...
Remember, it's a lot more than just power limits vendors are changing. Arguably if setting PL1 to PL2 was the only "optimized default" then there wouldn't be an issue. But that is not the case here.
Now that it's time to be honest and address an engineering problem, marketing is running aroud pointing fingers while the engineers have probably been warned to stfu.
One could almost say this was intentional to force upgrades after prolonged but slow degradation not to mention achieving high benchmark scores.What does it matter who’s to blame anyway. Its all ONE platform and Intel doesn’t make its own motherboards anymore. You need a motherboard to operate a CPU and vice versa. If ALL of these companies including Intel can’t get together to make a good end platform then they don’t deserve our money.
It is all about PR bullshit and making things cheaper.
PL1=PL2 is absolutely the default, which is also why Intel tests their CPUs like that.
It's why it is so shocking to see motherboard makers specifically release an update to adhere to baseline spec but the numbers are still made up and not compliant.
www.anandtech.com/show/6685/the-end-of-an-era-intels-desktop-motherboard-business-to-ramp-down-over-next-3-years
In your research who made Intel motherboards if not them? And did they also sell other brands to endusers?
Engineering that's no matter how powerful doesn't beat laws of Physics anyway...