Monday, April 29th 2024
Intel Statement on Stability Issues: "Motherboard Makers to Blame"
A couple of weeks ago, we reported on NVIDIA directing users of Intel's 13th Generation Raptor Lake and 14th Generation Raptor Lake Refresh CPUs to consult Intel for any issues with system stability. Motherboard makers, by default, often run the CPU outside of Intel's recommended specifications, overvolting the CPU through modifying voltage curves, automatic overclocks, and removing power limits.
Today, we learned that Igor's Lab has obtained a statement from Intel that the company prepared for motherboard OEMs regarding the issues multiple users report. Intel CPUs come pre-programmed with a stock voltage curve. When motherboard makers remove power limits and automatically adjust voltage curves and frequency targets, the CPU can be pushed outside its safe operating range, possibly causing system instability. Intel has set up a dedicated website for users to report their issues and offer support. Manufacturers like GIGABYTE have already issued new BIOS updates for users to achieve maximum stability, which incidentally has recent user reports of still being outside Intel spec, setting PL2 to 188 W, loadlines to 1.7/1.7 and current limit to 249 A. While MSI provided a blog post tutorial for stability. ASUS has published updated BIOS for its motherboards to reflect on this Intel baseline spec as well. Surprisingly, not all the revised BIOS values match up with the Intel Baseline Profile spec for these various new BIOS updates from different vendors. You can read the statement from Intel in the quote below.
Source:
Igor's Lab
Today, we learned that Igor's Lab has obtained a statement from Intel that the company prepared for motherboard OEMs regarding the issues multiple users report. Intel CPUs come pre-programmed with a stock voltage curve. When motherboard makers remove power limits and automatically adjust voltage curves and frequency targets, the CPU can be pushed outside its safe operating range, possibly causing system instability. Intel has set up a dedicated website for users to report their issues and offer support. Manufacturers like GIGABYTE have already issued new BIOS updates for users to achieve maximum stability, which incidentally has recent user reports of still being outside Intel spec, setting PL2 to 188 W, loadlines to 1.7/1.7 and current limit to 249 A. While MSI provided a blog post tutorial for stability. ASUS has published updated BIOS for its motherboards to reflect on this Intel baseline spec as well. Surprisingly, not all the revised BIOS values match up with the Intel Baseline Profile spec for these various new BIOS updates from different vendors. You can read the statement from Intel in the quote below.
Intel has observed that this issue may be related to out of specification operating conditions resulting in sustained high voltage and frequency during periods of elevated heat.
Analysis of affected processors shows some parts experience shifts in minimum operating voltages which may be related to operation outside of Intel specified operating conditions.
While the root cause has not yet been identified, Intel has observed the majority of reports of this issue are from users with unlocked/overclock capable motherboards.
Intel has observed 600/700 Series chipset boards often set BIOS defaults to disable thermal and power delivery safeguards designed to limit processor exposure to sustained periods of high voltage and frequency, for example:Intel requests system and motherboard manufacturers to provide end users with a default BIOS profile that matches Intel recommended settings.
- Disabling Current Excursion Protection (CEP)
- Enabling the IccMax Unlimited bit
- Disabling Thermal Velocity Boost (TVB) and/or Enhanced Thermal Velocity Boost (eTVB)
- Additional settings which may increase the risk of system instability:
- Disabling C-states
- Using Windows Ultimate Performance mode
- Increasing PL1 and PL2 beyond Intel recommended limits
Intel strongly recommends customer's default BIOS settings should ensure operation within Intel's recommended settings.
In addition, Intel strongly recommends motherboard manufacturers to implement warnings for end users alerting them to any unlocked or overclocking feature usage.
Intel is continuing to actively investigate this issue to determine the root cause and will provide additional updates as relevant information becomes available.
Intel will be publishing a public statement regarding issue status and Intel recommended BIOS setting recommendations targeted for May 2024.
272 Comments on Intel Statement on Stability Issues: "Motherboard Makers to Blame"
He assured us it's all within spec, so obviously if having these absurd power limits out of the box are in spec it's actually an understatement to say they incentivized motherboard makers to do this, they probably had to do it, because it's in spec after all lol.
This news post thread is specifically regarding 13th and 14th generation K series processors, not ambiguous models/boards.
Should be 188/125.
Also it seems based on HUB's demonstration both vendors have not made the baseline the default, it needs to be selected.
I was asking if your have any proof that 'ANY' of the mentioned setting aren't tweated in 'ANY' of the Intel marketing claims.
or afterall it is just your own 'Speculation' ?
Please keep in mind that, Intel themselves didn't reveal the PL1 settings in the 14900KS performance index anymore.
Does that mean it stayed at the 'Default 150W' ?
Everyone and their dog knew Intel tweaked that PL1 to the maximum to the point that it hurts their marketing if revealed.And Gigabyte had their voltage set wayyy too high.
It seems like there is nobody from Intel actually govening the 'baseline' values
Intel has pretty nice documents with specifications.
www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/content-details/743844/13th-generation-intel-core-and-intel-core-14th-generation-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2.html
4.4 Processor Line Thermal and Power Specifications, Table 17. Package Turbo Specifications (S/HX/S Refresh/HX Refresh-Processor Lines) - page 98
14900K is S, 8P+16E Core 125W - Tau 56, PL1 125, PL2 253.
Extreme config is Tau 56, PL1 253, PL2 253, basically power limit at 253W. Pretty sure Extreme should not be the default thing either way.
Edit:
14900KS is S, 8P+16E Core 150W - PL1 = PL2 = 253W
Extreme config PL1 = PL2 = 320W
If you bought a KS model it is reasonable enough to expect the buyer to understand what they are getting into :D
Found this datasheet pdf which is quite comprehensive and easier to navigate than the web based one.
Useful data.
www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/content-details/743844/13th-generation-intel-core-and-intel-core-14th-generation-processors-datasheet-volume-1-of-2.html
You posted the datasheet a minute before I finished my post lol.
And why is that PL1 = 320W not listed on the performance index page as the same as the 14900k datapoint?
It is pretty obvious that Intel didn't list all of their settings on the marketing material.
Therefore you cannot draw a line that none of those settings were tweated when Intel did those performance claim tests at #70
You reposted it here.
www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/intel-statement-on-stability-issues-motherboard-makers-to-blame.321959/post-5243932
The perf column matches the other link people are posting, but baseline is lower. Also matches the document you linked as well. Even perf isnt pl1=pl2, its 253/125 instead of 188/125 for baseline.
What is the point you are trying to make?
Righto.
The specifications seem pretty clear to me if you aren't interested in playing word games.
Have a look at the datasheet.
What other companies do with Intel products is up to them.
If I buy a car and tune the engine until it explodes, is this the fault of the car manufacturer?Are you speculating again?
It's pretty obvious through the varying implementation of the baseline "spec" on motherboards that no one seems to know what that is.
at #37 you posted Ignor's table and claimed it was Intel's default
at #57 #70 you acted like PL1=PL2 is okay but still off-spec
at #84 , all the sudden you act like PL1 = PL2 is in spec
You are so convoluted and confused, just like the motherboard manufacturers right now.
I will make it simple.
What should be the 'baseline' setting, for 14900KS?
125/188 ?
150/320 ?
320/320 ?
Pick one.
I don't know how the Intel/motherboard manufacturer relationship works.
From what I understand everyone just buys Intel chipsets, takes advantage of Intel reference designs/software etc., but is essentially releasing their own products.
Intel did not post it on their performance index.
Depending on the Intel spec you are looking at, i.e. baseline, extreme, default, values change. This isn't that complicated.
I suggest reading the Intel datasheet if you want to learn more. Myself and others have posted links.Additionally, Igor's table is not out of line with Intel spec, so please don't insinuate otherwise.
That table is from when the 13th gen was released though, so it's accurate for that generation.
Edit: To clarify, this quote and response is for crackong, not chrcouk.