Why do I feel like this is going to be Shield Redux?? They haven't updated their Shield TV/Tablets in forever. They might do this as a one-off thing for Alienware, but I don't see much, if any, long term support for it. I'd like to be wrong.

Someone at MediaTek needs to read the tale of The Frog and the Scorpion before its too late...

OolongGoatWhy do I feel like this is going to be Shield Redux?? They haven't updated their Shield TV/Tablets in forever. They might do this as a one-off thing for Alienware, but I don't see much, if any, long term support for it. I'd like to be wrong.

Why settle for 90% of GPU marketshare when they can have 90% of CPU marketshare in gaming machines too?

dgianstefaniWhy settle for 90% of GPU marketshare when they can have 90% of CPU marketshare in gaming machines too?

I would like to see them make this a thing and get ARM adopted into more computers for sure. Their past ARM endeavors in the consumer space haven't been great.

dgianstefaniWhy settle for 90% of GPU marketshare when they can have 90% of CPU marketshare in gaming machines too?

It took decades for Nvidia to build the GPU market and only did so well because Intel and AMD were constantly duking it out in the CPU space (Intel ignored the GPU space and AMD was never able to get enough money to do well in either). Now the CPU space is very crowded and full of players. Plus Nvidia's client products are on a severe decline. I welcome another player into the CPU space but only AMD and Apple have the momentum to do well right now. Qualcomm is trying hard and Nvidia would be a very, very, very, very distant fourth especially give the state of ARM on Windows.

If these are to be sold as gaming SoC's (and they will, it's on Alienware hardware) with the blessings of Microsoft, MS MUST fix the Xbox app. It's absurd that a capable enough SoC (as the current X1 Elite is) isn't able to locally install and run games through the Xbox app with Game Pass and be sidelined to solely cloud-based GP (requiring the most expensive Ultimate tier to boot).
Seriously, Steam and Heroic have no issues installing from their libraries. Games may not run and that's expected. But let them be installed, give the users the option.

DavenIt took decades for Nvidia to build the GPU market and only did so well because Intel and AMD were constantly duking it out in the CPU space (Intel ignored the GPU space and AMD was never able to get enough money to do well in either). Now the CPU space is very crowded and full of players. Plus Nvidia's client products are on a severe decline. I welcome another player into the CPU space but only AMD and Apple have the momentum to do well right now. Qualcomm is trying hard and Nvidia would be a very, very, very, very distant fourth especially give the state of ARM on Windows.

I welcome another player as well.....so long as it's not a massive corporation that ALREADY arguably has too much marketshare. New competition is great so long as it's "new"....this is why I've never been "excited" over Intel's entry into dGPUs for example, it's not like Intel is some small start up, and the same applies to Nvidia in CPUs. It won't help the market, just bring further consolidation.

AnarchoPrimitivI welcome another player as well.....so long as it's not a massive corporation that ALREADY arguably has too much marketshare. New competition is great so long as it's "new"....this is why I've never been "excited" over Intel's entry into dGPUs for example, it's not like Intel is some small start up, and the same applies to Nvidia in CPUs. It won't help the market, just bring further consolidation.

I agree. While dgianstefani is only a fan of Nvidia and is not interested in any other company for us to take him/her seriously, it is worth discussing if we need more competition in the CPU market or SoC market if that is the better term in this case. Continuing the trend of smartphone SoC manufacturers entering other device markets plus current players, I have the following companies:

United States - AMD, Intel, Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, Google, Broadcom
China - HiSilicon, Unisoc, Xiaomi
Taiwan - Mediatek
Korea - Samsung

Many of these are large corporations but there has never been more diversification when it comes to how computing technology is being bundled and offered. Everyone is trying pretty hard and the slice of the pie keeps getting bigger and bigger as tech grows to more areas of usage and more areas of the world.

DavenNow the CPU space is very crowded and full of players.

You are underestimating Ngreedia army of bribed influencers plus rabid cult members that follow those influencers without questions.

See how people are already assuming that such CPU would be open and friendly when everything that Ngreedia has done in the last 15 years or so is to push crap that keeps you locked into their hardware.

Need a good sample?

See how after all these years, their Linux drivers are still closed source.

Want to guess why ValvE is still hesitant in doing a real full on release of SteamOS?

Yeap, Ngreedia closed drivers and the unavoidable mob that will crap on Valve on behalf of poor and defenseless Ngreedia when the installation inevitably fails.

AnarchoPrimitivI welcome another player as well.....so long as it's not a massive corporation that ALREADY arguably has too much marketshare. New competition is great so long as it's "new"....this is why I've never been "excited" over Intel's entry into dGPUs for example, it's not like Intel is some small start up, and the same applies to Nvidia in CPUs. It won't help the market, just bring further consolidation.

Adding to this, we already know how Intel and Ngreedia will shaft the market when they are on top, so I agree, I dont want either on such position.

Davenwe need more competition in the CPU

Agreed.

Hell, I wished that more companies took this chance and invested in POWER, RISC-V, ARM besides X86.

I recall that POWER and Sparc are actually open sourced?
PS @Daven I tried to PM you, but you have your profile locked, if you can, please send me a PM.

Neo_MorpheusSee how after all these years, their Linux drivers are still closed source.

I guess you should inform yourself a bit more:
github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules

Neo_MorpheusWant to guess why ValvE is still hesitant in doing a real full on release of SteamOS?

Yeap, Ngreedia closed drivers and the unavoidable mob that will crap on Valve on behalf of poor and defenseless Ngreedia when the installation inevitably fails.

Mind giving a source on that?
Otherwise, I'm just calling this BS.

Neo_MorpheusI recall that POWER and Sparc are actually open sourced?

OpenPOWER is, POWER depends on the version and is bound by contracts with IBM AFAIK. Power10 is a good example that is not really open since it requires some proprietary firmware from IBM.
But this conversation about ISAs is kinda moot. The problem is designing your own µarch that can be really effective, the ISA is just a way to get software compatibility on top of your design.

AMD needs to expedite their ARM development. If N1X is a success in mobile gaming, it will only be a matter of time till Nvidia starts targeting desktop machines (at least low-power mini-PCs and SFF console replacements), and since AMD is already faltering in GPU market share, they cannot afford to lose CPU gaming as well.

That said, in this AI-dominated world, will losing gaming really be a loss for AMD?

CosmicWandererAMD needs to expedite their ARM development. If N1X is a success in mobile gaming, it will only be a matter of time till Nvidia starts targeting desktop machines (at least low-power mini-PCs and SFF console replacements), and since AMD is already faltering in GPU market share, they cannot afford to lose CPU gaming as well.

That said, in this AI-dominated world, will losing gaming really be a loss for AMD?

It's just as likely that Nvidia will lose the gaming world at least in the current way gaming hardware is deployed. Nvidia is more than likely to lose interest in providing client-based products if they have to compete heavily. Geforce NOW is Nvidia's biggest pet gaming project because they get to use large server farms that stream gaming to any device. In that way, there will be mainly SoC based, portable devices from a dozen different SoC providers that customers use to connect and subscribe to the Geforce NOW service.

Plus the margins are just too low in the client space for Nvidia to really care enough to compete.

Great way to lose money. Keep it up Nvidia.

ARM has no place in the PC world. Please don’t bring up Apple’s fantasyland, it’s a parallel dimension where people are happy to pay more for less.

CosmicWandererThat said, in this AI-dominated world, will losing gaming really be a loss for AMD?

They aren’t exactly setting the AI world on fire, they keep lowering their sales predictions.

igormpI guess you should inform yourself a bit more:

By all means, install Linux on a Pc with a Ngreedia gpu and only use that, then open a game, you will love the slideshow, assuming it opens at all.

igormpMind giving a source on that?
Otherwise, I'm just calling this BS.

Sure, but is still bs.

www.gamingonlinux.com/2025/01/intel-and-nvidia-drivers-holding-back-a-public-steamos-release-valve-not-trying-to-compete-with-windows/

igormpOpenPOWER is, POWER depends on the version and is bound by contracts with IBM AFAIK. Power10 is a good example that is not really open since it requires some proprietary firmware from IBM.
But this conversation about ISAs is kinda moot. The problem is designing your own µarch that can be really effective, the ISA is just a way to get software compatibility on top of your design.

Its an example of possibilities and it is possible.

Translations layers can help with the rest.

Neo_MorpheusYou are underestimating Ngreedia army of bribed influencers plus rabid cult members that follow those influencers without questions.

See how people are already assuming that such CPU would be open and friendly when everything that Ngreedia has done in the last 15 years or so is to push crap that keeps you locked into their hardware.

Need a good sample?

See how after all these years, their Linux drivers are still closed source.

Want to guess why ValvE is still hesitant in doing a real full on release of SteamOS?

Yeap, Ngreedia closed drivers and the unavoidable mob that will crap on Valve on behalf of poor and defenseless Ngreedia when the installation inevitably fails.


Adding to this, we already know how Intel and Ngreedia will shaft the market when they are on top, so I agree, I dont want either on such position.


Agreed.

Hell, I wished that more companies took this chance and invested in POWER, RISC-V, ARM besides X86.

I recall that POWER and Sparc are actually open sourced?
PS @Daven I tried to PM you, but you have your profile locked, if you can, please send me a PM.

x86 is where it's at because business demands backwards compatibility. It's not good but there is decades worth of software that only runs on x86. Which is also why Microsoft, nvidia, and intel are still around. When you are dealing at that level however much Microsoft, nvidia, and intel might suck they just work. You do not get fired for choosing them or blamed when they fail. Of course hyper mission critical stuff does not run on this. Hence why IBM is still chugging around. The people with the skills for this and say IBM AIX and more esoteric type systems are rare and we cost a lot of money to hire.

The PS3, 360, and Wii weren't that long ago and all used some twist of IBM POWER. It was PC gamers of all groups (yet again PC gamers ruin everything) who screamed for joy when all Sony and MS went x86 for their consoles.

The market has already spoken though. Gaming is going to the cloud. So it's not really relevant what it runs off of other than as a thin client.

Neo_MorpheusBy all means, install Linux on a Pc with a Ngreedia gpu and only use that, then open a game, you will love the slideshow, assuming it opens at all.

Sure, been there done that:


Aren't you confusing nvidia's open-modules with something like nouveau, which is the older 3rd party open source driver?

Neo_MorpheusSure, but is still bs.

www.gamingonlinux.com/2025/01/intel-and-nvidia-drivers-holding-back-a-public-steamos-release-valve-not-trying-to-compete-with-windows/

This is totally different from what you posted.
They said the issue is with getting things working out of the box. Nvidia's driver is not upstream, Intel still has tons of action going on and back that interview happened their new Xe driver wasn't even the default one, so they would need to either do this beforehand, or allow the user to do those things easily.
Think of how Ubuntu/Manjaro/other user-friendly distros have some sort of "driver picker" for you:

As they said, this is not a priority for them to work on.

Neo_MorpheusIts an example of possibilities and it is possible.

Translations layers can help with the rest.

Yeah, but why another not-well-supported ISA?
There are many companies doing tons of RISC-V cores, but they are either focused on embedded scenarios, or server ones, not general-purpose desktop.

SOAREVERSORx86 is where it's at because business demands backwards compatibility.

x86 is where it is mostly because of the monopoly Intel has had for decades until they decided to stagnate in the Skylake era with quad cores.

SOAREVERSORThe PS3, 360, and Wii weren't that long ago and all used some twist of IBM POWER. It was PC gamers of all groups (yet again PC gamers ruin everything) who screamed for joy when all Sony and MS went x86 for their consoles.

The PS3, Xbox 360 and the Wii were all difficult to program for, it wasn't PC gamers fault and after Sony & MS consoles went to x86 we have many more console ports on PC.

SOAREVERSORThe market has already spoken though. Gaming is going to the cloud. So it's not really relevant what it runs off of other than as a thin client.

It isn't, good luck with that as the infrastructure isn't enough to support cloud gaming, at least in North America ISP speeds are nowhere near enough to have a decent experience, and most people aren't going to waste data caps on game streaming. You must work for some cloud game streaming company or the Geforce Now division of Nvidia to be constantly bashing on PC gaming while saying "cloud gaming is the future".

igormpSure, been there done that:


Aren't you confusing nvidia's open-modules with something like nouveau, which is the older 3rd party open source driver?

Since I dont have a Ngreedia gpu I have to rely on search and this is the result of a quick serach:

search.brave.com/search?q=nvidia+linux+open+source+drivers+out+of+the+box+experience&source=desktop&conversation=ff5de69d8a08759f40fb00&summary=1

NVIDIA Linux Drivers Open Source

NVIDIA has transitioned fully towards open-source GPU kernel modules, making the open-source driver the default option for Turing or newer GPUs starting with the 560 driver release.23 This move aims to emulate AMD's approach to open-source drivers on Linux, improving driver quality and security.4

However, it's important to note that the open-source driver only includes the kernel modules, which handle communication with the GPU. Userspace drivers that provide OpenGL and Vulkan support remain closed-source.34 This means that while the kernel modules are open-source, the overall driver stack still contains proprietary elements, affecting the out-of-the-box experience for users.4

For users wanting to install the latest open-source NVIDIA drivers, the process varies by distribution:

• Fedora/RHEL/Kylin: Install with dnf module install nvidia-driver:open-dkms.2
• Debian: Use apt-get install nvidia-open.2
• Ubuntu: Also use apt-get install nvidia-open.2

Despite these advancements, some users report that the open-source drivers lack certain features found in the proprietary drivers, such as Vulkan extensions necessary for Proton on DirectX 12.4 Additionally, issues like desktop corruption and CUDA app crashes persist, though they may be mitigated in newer driver releases.4

In summary, while the open-source kernel modules represent a significant step forward for NVIDIA on Linux, the overall driver experience remains partially proprietary, impacting the out-of-the-box functionality for some users.

igormpThis is totally different from what you posted.
They said the issue is with getting things working out of the box.

No, I clearly stated out of the out of the box experience, but different words.
Which brings the inevitable goalpost moving based on expressions.

You understood the post, but anyways.

igormpNvidia's driver is not upstream,

Exactly, hence not available out of the box.

igormpAs they said, this is not a priority for them to work on.

Cant do much without breaking the GPL by including the close source drivers.

igormpYeah, but why another not-well-supported ISA?

Because we have to eventually move on and why not?

igormpThere are many companies doing tons of RISC-V cores, but they are either focused on embedded scenarios, or server ones, not general-purpose desktop.

Same as above and we will get there.

It took ARM almost 40 years to make it to where they are, so time is the key point here.

Neo_MorpheusSince I dont have a Ngreedia gpu I have to rely on search and this is the result of a quick serach:

Maybe don't really solely on LLM-generated output?
Let me spoon feed you:
www.phoronix.com/review/nvidia-555-open

And that was almost 1 year ago.

Neo_MorpheusNo, I clearly stated out of the out of the box experience, but different words.

No, you bashed on Nvidia in your usual hater style, with no proper backing other than "installation will break".

Neo_MorpheusWhich brings the inevitable goalpost moving based on expressions.

That's what you're doing.

Valve folks don't want to release a generic distro because it's not a priority for them to build an installer and have to care about different stuff that different setups may require, period.
Nothing to do with "muh nvidia evil" or "nvidia breaking things".

Neo_MorpheusExactly, hence not available out of the box.

Intel one is but not enabled by default, and was also mentioned by the valve dev. What's your take on that one?

Neo_MorpheusCant do much without breaking the GPL by including the close source drivers.

The driver is gpl/MIT, what are you talking about?

Neo_MorpheusBecause we have to eventually move on and why not?

Move on from an... ISA? Why? Why break lots of software compatibility and have to tune compilers all over again?
Way better to use a good supported ISA and develop a good μarch for it, as I have already said before.

igormpMaybe don't really solely on LLM-generated output?
Let me spoon feed you:
www.phoronix.com/review/nvidia-555-open
And that was almost 1 year ago.

Funny, he’s actually commenting in that thread with his usual lies. He suddenly shut up when it was pointed out that all the vendors - including AMD - have proprietary user space blobs.

From the Gentoo Wiki

Frequent and Sporadic Crashes

Some users may be experiencing frequent and seemingly random graphics card crashes while using the AMDGPU drivers. Checking the kernel log may show many different errors, some common ones involving *ERROR* Waiting for fences timed out! and *ERROR* ring gfx timeout. This is usually followed by a reset of the graphics device/drivers

Oopsies.

igormpLet me spoon feed you:

Interesting that there are no gaming benchmarks in there, which would be the primary reason for someone to install SteamOS.

igormpNo, you bashed on Nvidia in your usual hater style, with no proper backing other than "installation will break".

The hate is more than justified and it is insane that people, especially gamers, are ignoring and giving this company free passes with all their anticonsumer crap they have pulled over the years.

But that said, using your link, feel free to read the comments and see if only "installation will break" is the only roadblock.

By the way, going by support, see how often is posted "I have X,Y, Z issue" and the first response is "are you using Ngreedia hardware?"

igormpValve folks don't want to release a generic distro because it's not a priority for them to build an installer and have to care about different stuff that different setups may require, period.
Nothing to do with "muh nvidia evil" or "nvidia breaking things".

If you really think that Valce is pushing Linux gaming just because GabeN was bored, I do have a bridge to sell you.

And yes, again, out of the box experience matters when you want to reach a bigger market.

igormpIntel one is but not enabled by default, and was also mentioned by the valve dev. What's your take on that one?

I assume that you are talking about iGPUs?

Because their dGPUs are pretty much irrelevant, regardless of how much the influencers try to hype it.

igormpThe driver is gpl/MIT, what are you talking about?

Linux is GPL, which depending on many details, dont allow certain distros to ship their closed source drivers.

You know this, but still, lets say it.

Anyways, using Ngreedia powered hardware, here is a nice AI generated response from Google:

Nvidia drivers are not included in Linux distributions primarily because they are proprietary, meaning their source code is not freely available. This poses a challenge for open-source operating systems like Linux, which aim to use software with readily available and modifiable code.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Proprietary Nature:
  Nvidia's drivers are closed-source, meaning the code isn't released to the public. This is a business decision by Nvidia to protect their intellectual property and competitive advantage.
• Licensing Issues:
  The licensing of Nvidia's proprietary software might not align with the open-source licenses used by Linux distributions. This can create compatibility and legal issues.
• Nvidia's Preferences:
  Nvidia has historically favored maintaining control over its driver software, choosing to offer them as separate packages rather than integrating them directly into the Linux kernel.
• Alternatives:
  While Nvidia's proprietary drivers offer the best performance, open-source alternatives like Nouveau exist, but they may not offer the same performance or feature set.
• Kernel Integration Challenges:
  Integrating a closed-source driver like Nvidia's directly into the Linux kernel could create problems with the kernel's licensing and maintainability.

igormpMove on from an... ISA? Why? Why break lots of software compatibility and have to tune compilers all over again?
Way better to use a good supported ISA and develop a good μarch for it, as I have already said before.

more and more we are (thankfully) approaching software that is either portable or more platform agnostic and the reality is, x86 needs a serious revamp and ditch a lot of registers and legacy parts to be able to compete in matters like power consumption.

The funny part is, removing that compatibility related hardware will affect the software, so the compatibility will be moot.

Dont get me wrong, its not that I dont agree, but at the same time, we simply have to move forward.

Apple for example has done this 4 times already and it has paid handsomely, even though, it does forces their customers to ditch old software and buy again.

Neo_MorpheusInteresting that there are no gaming benchmarks in there, which would be the primary reason for someone to install SteamOS.

Well, I've been using the open drivers and they work just fine.
Your point was about the drivers being proprietary, which is not the case, period.

Neo_MorpheusThe hate is more than justified and it is insane that people, especially gamers, are ignoring and giving this company free passes with all their anticonsumer crap they have pulled over the years.

Hate for a corporation? Don't tell me you love AMD instead...
"anticonsumer" crap is kinda bogus. They may not be focusing on you, but there are plenty of consumers that are happy enough, otherwise their marketshare and share value wouldn't be so high.

Neo_Morpheusand the first response is "are you using Ngreedia hardware?"

Usually posted by people such as yourself that spread misinformation that they got from a random LLM without verifying any sources.

Neo_MorpheusIf you really think that Valce is pushing Linux gaming just because GabeN was bored, I do have a bridge to sell you.

Linux gaming != SteamOS.
SteamOS is made for the SteamDeck, and Valve is slowly working with other vendors to have it built-in.
Making SteamOS generic enough to reach the level of something like Ubuntu or Mint is not a priority for them, those other distros exist for a reason and it's not helpful to try to do what they already do best.

Neo_MorpheusAnd yes, again, out of the box experience matters when you want to reach a bigger market.

Yes, hence why they said they would not try to redo the work that was done by other distros such as bazzite.

Neo_MorpheusI assume that you are talking about iGPUs?

Because their dGPUs are pretty much irrelevant, regardless of how much the influencers try to hype it.

No, both the iGPUs and dGPUs.
Ironic that you call a 3rd player irrelevant, instead of trying to praise for more competition...

Neo_MorpheusLinux is GPL, which depending on many details, dont allow certain distros to ship their closed source drivers.

No, that's not how it works AT ALL.

GPLv2 means that you can't create and distribute a derivative of the linux kernel without making your changes available.
You can freely add any proprietary crap on top of it, otherwise no system would work given the need to include the firmware blobs for all different things (including your AMD GPU).

"certain distros" is only linux-libre, which is a purist FOSS project, it has nothing to do with licensing requirements.

Neo_MorpheusYou know this, but still, lets say it.

Seems like you don't, though.

Neo_MorpheusAnyways, using Ngreedia powered hardware, here is a nice AI generated response from Google:

You really shouldn't trust the outputs of a LLM blindly...

Neo_Morpheusmore and more we are (thankfully) approaching software that is either portable or more platform agnostic

Yeah, that's cool indeed.

Neo_Morpheusx86 needs a serious revamp and ditch a lot of registers and legacy parts to be able to compete in matters like power consumption.

Why? Those changes would bring NO power consumption changes. The front-end changes for that are really minimal within the µarch, would not bring ANY perf or power benefit, and would just break lots of things.
I doubt such change would manage to provide even a 2% area reduction.

Neo_MorpheusDont get me wrong, its not that I dont agree, but at the same time, we simply have to move forward.

I still don't see what your "moving forward" point is. It just seems like you want things to change because you think x86 is "old", without any proper argument to back this up.

Neo_MorpheusApple for example has done this 4 times already and it has paid handsomely, even though, it does forces their customers to ditch old software and buy again.

Apple has done a really amazing µarch, period. It has had nothing to do with ARM itself.
They could have made an equally good x86 core, but do you think they'd have been able to acquire a license?
They could have done RISC-V, but the software ecosystem was not there yet.
They already had an ARM license and lots of experience with their mobile phones, so continuing with ARM was the most sane choice with the 2nd best software support out there.

Just to reinforce the "ISA is irrelevant" point, no other ARM CPU is as good as Apple's, which goes back to the idea of what matters is the underlying µarch, not the ISA itself.

I can’t believe that supposedly intelligent people regurgitate LLM hallucinations as a factual argument.

But then just today a law clerk was fired for using them.
arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/06/law-clerk-fired-over-chatgpt-use-after-firms-filing-used-ai-hallucinations/

Neo_MorpheusSince I dont have a Ngreedia gpu I have to...

...talk about how bad they are continually, hardware you don't own? You and others, this is a general message.

Then accuse anyone else with a different perspective (really, any perspective, considering yours isn't actually one, but is second hand info from an ai or a Google search) of bias (from the user with AMD as their profile picture). Then voila, you have "moral high ground" and can lecture us all without anything substantial backing it, a convenient position most of us tried to move past in high school.

Tedious, boring, ironic. Intellectually vacant echo chambers. There's other ways to form a personality.