AleksandarKIntel has a solid chance to be in the top three customers in 2023

IIRC, that ship has already sailed, by way of the boys in fruity valley, hehehe :)

2025, yea maybe, although I wouldn't hold me breath, but then again, literally anything could happen when it comes to chip fabs nowadays.....

But why would Intel do business with a company from an "unstable country"?

UdyrBut why would Intel do business with a company from an "unstable country"?

You do know that Pat didnt say 'we wont do business with TSMC because they are in an unstable country", right? He said taiwan is an unstable country (because it is, china's saber rattling has got everyone's attention, and after afghanistan dependance on american military projection is looking awfully shakey) and that america should be investing more into building american foundaries so they are not dependent on china for their chips in the event of a chinese takeover of taiwan. Since TSMC recieves notable investment from the taiwanese government, pat suggested america should do the same with intel.

I know nuance is hard to understand, but do try to read a little more closely next time.

UdyrBut why would Intel do business with a company from an "unstable country"?

If Taiwan is so "unstable" as you suggest, how has TSMC (or any other companies operating there) become such behemoths/major players in the electronics industry ?

Granted, they have their issues like most countries, but just sayin :D

Huawei is not a customer anymore so it's likely 1) Apple 2) Intel/Qualcomm 3) Qualcomm/Intel

bonehead123If Taiwan is so "unstable" as you suggest, how has TSMC (or any other companies operating there) become such behemoths/major players in the electronics industry ?

Granted, they have their issues like most countries, but just sayin :D

Intels CEO suggested it, not him. It's pretty much the CEOs exact wording.

bonehead123If Taiwan is so "unstable" as you suggest, how has TSMC (or any other companies operating there) become such behemoths/major players in the electronics industry ?

Granted, they have their issues like most countries, but just sayin :D

Cheap labor

TotallyCheap labor

Labor in taiwan isn't as cheap as most imagine. Certainly cheaper than the states though.

If you can’t beat ‘em, join em :D

Step 1: buy up all your competitors’ fab capacity

Step 2: lobby for government subsidies to make up lost margins from using a third party fab

Intel is just a special kind of evil.

Mark LittleStep 1: buy up all your competitors’ fab capacity

Step 2: lobby for government subsidies to make up lost margins from using a third party fab

Intel is just a special kind of evil.

Agreed....I don't think people realize how dangerous this is with respect to competition in the x86 market place....this harkens back to Intel's dirty tactics circa the early 2000s when they resorted to bribing OEMs when they couldn't beat AMD, and now they're resorting to using their financial weight again instead of innovation. AMD's annual revenue is 800%+ less than Intel's, AMD's annual R&D budget is 650% less than Intel's, and AMD has not made nearly enough ground in the two most lucrative x86 markets: enterprise and mobility (laptops). I'm sure people will write this off as the rantings of an AMD fanboy, but in reality, I'm honestly scared we could easily backslide into Intel cartelism and stagnation like the one we have really just come out of, all thanks to AMD. Seriously, in a just world, Intel would be forced to use ONLY their own fabs and have to lie in the bed they've made for themselves. We as enthusiasts have absolutely NO guarantee's that AMD can weather this storm as they are nowhere near 50% market share and have nowhere near the financial resources of Intel (which makes it all that more impressive what AMD and Lisa Su have managed to accomplish with a shoestring budget by comparison). Seriously, for the betterment of all consumers, it would have been far more beneficial for AMD to have dominance for another 3 to 5 years....time enough to build up their financial resources and penetrate the x86 market much further. Everyone seems to forget that the vast majority of x86 sales for consumers are laptops, and the overwhelming majority of those consumers don't even know AMD exists and basically see "Intel" and "laptop" as synonymous and interchangeable terms...we may seriously be looking back at the Zen 1 through Zen 3/4 period as the "good old days" in a couple years when where back with overpriced stagnation from Intel and all because they threw around their financial weight and NOT because they out-engineered or out-innovated AMD.

AMD, in order to remain profitable (remember, only share prices matter in late-stage capitalism), could easily scale down all consumer x86 and consumer dGPU development, shed those entire departments, and just go completely semi-custom, and remain profitable, sell off their IP/patents, and the shareholders would be just as happy.

The failure of intel as a fab. is bad for everyone, if intel is not being able to supply itself everyone will be held hostage by TSMC which seems unstoppable (fortunately and unfortunately) and with that prices tend to rise exponentially :(

R-T-BLabor in taiwan isn't as cheap as most imagine. Certainly cheaper than the states though.

When education and work ethic is compared to that of the states it's damn cheap. They're actually capable work 80hr weeks, and are mostly content with upper mid 5 figure salaries. Stateside such a person would want at least six figures

bonehead123If Taiwan is so "unstable" as you suggest, how has TSMC (or any other companies operating there) become such behemoths/major players in the electronics industry ?

Granted, they have their issues like most countries, but just sayin :D

Because it's become a lot more unstable under Xi Jinping's dictatorship and his aggressive airforce incursions into Taiwanese airspace. China is far more aggressive now about Taiwan than it has been in the past and there is now very high likely hood of invasion. This was not true even just 2 years ago. It's actually highly likely China and Russia will corrdinate attacks on Taiwan and Ukraine respectively, to further weaken America's response.

Building new fabs take huge investments in time and money. We would need Taiwan for many years even if we could eventually replace it capabilities. How that would play out in the short term though if China seized back control is anyone's guess.

About time Australia put its hand up to locate Fabs. Places like South Australia would be perfect. Our useless government needs to spruik us to the big players looking for politically stable locations.

AnarchoPrimitivAgreed....I don't think people realize how dangerous this is with respect to competition in the x86 market place....this harkens back to Intel's dirty tactics circa the early 2000s when they resorted to bribing OEMs when they couldn't beat AMD, and now they're resorting to using their financial weight again instead of innovation. AMD's annual revenue is 800%+ less than Intel's, AMD's annual R&D budget is 650% less than Intel's, and AMD has not made nearly enough ground in the two most lucrative x86 markets: enterprise and mobility (laptops). I'm sure people will write this off as the rantings of an AMD fanboy, but in reality, I'm honestly scared we could easily backslide into Intel cartelism and stagnation like the one we have really just come out of, all thanks to AMD. Seriously, in a just world, Intel would be forced to use ONLY their own fabs and have to lie in the bed they've made for themselves. We as enthusiasts have absolutely NO guarantee's that AMD can weather this storm as they are nowhere near 50% market share and have nowhere near the financial resources of Intel (which makes it all that more impressive what AMD and Lisa Su have managed to accomplish with a shoestring budget by comparison). Seriously, for the betterment of all consumers, it would have been far more beneficial for AMD to have dominance for another 3 to 5 years....time enough to build up their financial resources and penetrate the x86 market much further. Everyone seems to forget that the vast majority of x86 sales for consumers are laptops, and the overwhelming majority of those consumers don't even know AMD exists and basically see "Intel" and "laptop" as synonymous and interchangeable terms...we may seriously be looking back at the Zen 1 through Zen 3/4 period as the "good old days" in a couple years when where back with overpriced stagnation from Intel and all because they threw around their financial weight and NOT because they out-engineered or out-innovated AMD.

AMD, in order to remain profitable (remember, only share prices matter in late-stage capitalism), could easily scale down all consumer x86 and consumer dGPU development, shed those entire departments, and just go completely semi-custom, and remain profitable, sell off their IP/patents, and the shareholders would be just as happy.

Now that is pretty much the same page as i am on!
Only i think they can shaft TSMC in this scenario as well, if it all goes pear shaped ! Ie tie up a lot of their volume and then pull the plug. Blocks AMD from using it and then leaves TSMC with a big hole to fill with massive volume loss !

AnarchoPrimitivAgreed....I don't think people realize how dangerous this is with respect to competition in the x86 market place....this harkens back to Intel's dirty tactics circa the early 2000s when they resorted to bribing OEMs when they couldn't beat AMD, and now they're resorting to using their financial weight again instead of innovation. AMD's annual revenue is 800%+ less than Intel's, AMD's annual R&D budget is 650% less than Intel's, and AMD has not made nearly enough ground in the two most lucrative x86 markets: enterprise and mobility (laptops). I'm sure people will write this off as the rantings of an AMD fanboy, but in reality, I'm honestly scared we could easily backslide into Intel cartelism and stagnation like the one we have really just come out of, all thanks to AMD. Seriously, in a just world, Intel would be forced to use ONLY their own fabs and have to lie in the bed they've made for themselves. We as enthusiasts have absolutely NO guarantee's that AMD can weather this storm as they are nowhere near 50% market share and have nowhere near the financial resources of Intel (which makes it all that more impressive what AMD and Lisa Su have managed to accomplish with a shoestring budget by comparison). Seriously, for the betterment of all consumers, it would have been far more beneficial for AMD to have dominance for another 3 to 5 years....time enough to build up their financial resources and penetrate the x86 market much further. Everyone seems to forget that the vast majority of x86 sales for consumers are laptops, and the overwhelming majority of those consumers don't even know AMD exists and basically see "Intel" and "laptop" as synonymous and interchangeable terms...we may seriously be looking back at the Zen 1 through Zen 3/4 period as the "good old days" in a couple years when where back with overpriced stagnation from Intel and all because they threw around their financial weight and NOT because they out-engineered or out-innovated AMD.

AMD, in order to remain profitable (remember, only share prices matter in late-stage capitalism), could easily scale down all consumer x86 and consumer dGPU development, shed those entire departments, and just go completely semi-custom, and remain profitable, sell off their IP/patents, and the shareholders would be just as happy.

I was going to write lengthy reply about how TSMC screwing up strategic (fabless and rapidly growing) customer like AMD make no sense, but i will quote "RetiredEngineer" instead.

"Depends on what Intel is using 3nm for, and process node alone is not the only determinant. And don’t believe TSMC would allow Intel to “crowd out” AMD or other loyal/strategic customers. It doesn’t serve TSMC’s long term interest; makes no sense."

TheinsanegamerNYou do know that Pat didnt say 'we wont do business with TSMC because they are in an unstable country", right? He said taiwan is an unstable country (because it is, china's saber rattling has got everyone's attention, and after afghanistan dependance on american military projection is looking awfully shakey) and that america should be investing more into building american foundaries so they are not dependent on china for their chips in the event of a chinese takeover of taiwan. Since TSMC recieves notable investment from the taiwanese government, pat suggested america should do the same with intel.

I know nuance is hard to understand, but do try to read a little more closely next time.

bonehead123If Taiwan is so "unstable" as you suggest, how has TSMC (or any other companies operating there) become such behemoths/major players in the electronics industry ?

Granted, they have their issues like most countries, but just sayin :D

I suppose I should have added /s at the end of my comment, referring to how Pat basically said "they're unstable. Give me money" (simplified), and then went on to (even if unrelated to his comments because of obvious business reasons) work with the company that "miraculously" grew to the top in the same unstable country.

...but thanks, though. I appreciate your hasty input.

TotallyWhen education and work ethic is compared to that of the states it's damn cheap. They're actually capable work 80hr weeks, and are mostly content with upper mid 5 figure salaries. Stateside such a person would want at least six figures

Which is why I specifically excluded the states.

AnarchoPrimitivSeriously, in a just world, Intel would be forced to use ONLY their own fabs and have to lie in the bed they've made for themselves.

So what exactly are your thoughts here. You think AMD should be what, closed? Not have been allowed to spin off GF? Make do with 12nm? :)

What a sad story for Intel this is.

So it's now Apple, AMD, Intel? That's one hell of a basket to put all your eggs in.

ChomiqSo it's now Apple, AMD, Intel? That's one hell of a basket to put all your eggs in.

All those companies will go bust if China misbehaves early next year, maybe Intel can survive, but their fabs are a mess. And it will be the end of Apple. AMD may cope, as they don't use cutting edge process nodes.

TotallyCheap labor

Available workforce, in fact, and not cheap.

The problem isn't how fast can you build fabs, the problem is how well can you staff them.

Vayra86Available workforce, in fact, and not cheap.

The problem isn't how fast can you build fabs, the problem is how well can you staff them.

Workforce is one thing. The machinery for fabs is another big one. Remember the news about EUV machines supply from ASML a few years ago? That as rather extreme but similar limited supply is fairly normal for a number of pieces required for state of the art semiconductor foundry.