If this is priced well, it will kill PC gaming for everyone that i know. People here already discuss how they hate everything about modern PC gaming, pricing and stuff. How they want a PS5 already, even if its not super powerful. I always see people saying how a 400-500 console play the same games that are 700-1110 euro video cards do... and that's just video cards. There are other PC parts in the PC too, a PC is not just a video card.
I get them honestly, it has gotten too expensive in the last few years. In my country, even a 3070 is like 650 euro, today... even if 4070 is a thing, and similarly priced. GPUs are allergic to discounts, i guess. I will never go to consoles cus i don't enjoy using the controller. Most people don't seem to have that problem.

starfalsIf this is priced well, it will kill PC gaming for everyone that i know. People here already discuss how they hate everything about modern PC gaming, pricing and stuff. How they want a PS5 already, even if its not super powerful. I always see people saying how a 400-500 console play the same games that are 700-1110 euro video cards do... and that's just video cards. There are other PC parts in the PC too, a PC is not just a video card.
I get them honestly, it has gotten too expensive in the last few years. In my country, even a 3070 is like 650 euro, today... even if 4070 is a thing, and similarly priced. GPUs are allergic to discounts, i guess. I will never go to consoles cus i don't enjoy using the controller. Most people don't seem to have that problem.

It may actually light fire under the ass of gpu makers to actually be competitive.

But greed will win out in the end.

starfalsIf this is priced well, it will kill PC gaming for everyone that i know. People here already discuss how they hate everything about modern PC gaming, pricing and stuff. How they want a PS5 already, even if its not super powerful. I always see people saying how a 400-500 console play the same games that are 700-1110 euro video cards do... and that's just video cards. There are other PC parts in the PC too, a PC is not just a video card.
I get them honestly, it has gotten too expensive in the last few years. In my country, even a 3070 is like 650 euro, today... even if 4070 is a thing, and similarly priced. GPUs are allergic to discounts, i guess. I will never go to consoles cus i don't enjoy using the controller. Most people don't seem to have that problem.

Nah, PC games go on sale far more frequently than console titles and for much deeper discounts. So if you already have a powerful PC then gaming on it isn't such a stretch especially if you have non-gaming usage cases that require a good GPU.

There's also the option of modding games on PC, something not realistically feasible on console. There's also the topic about emulators but I won't go into detail about that.

Game console AI/ML cores will only do game-related workloads. There are plenty of non-gaming AI/ML workloads these days to make a high-quality GPU in a PC a consideration.

Here in April 2024 I find myself in more usage cases that benefit from ML/AI cores on graphics cards. At first it was just simple things like video replacement during conference calls using Nvidia Broadcast. But these days I'm using more applications harness high performance GPUs like image and video upscaling (particularly the latter).

My guess is that a year from now I'll be doing one or two more things that I'm not doing today that will require a powerful GPU (GPU cores or ML/AI cores). What that will be I'm not sure but these advancements are moving very fast now.

It's conceivable that in a couple of years I'll be using AI to write applications (for my own personal use) even though I'm not a programmer. One of my nephews is already doing this even though he has no programming education and was previously doing video editing.

There's also the fact that PCs support a larger range of display resolutions and aspect ratios than console hardware which matters in cases like a racing sim on an ultrawide display. Here's one

www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/acers-57-inch-predator-z57-lands-in-retail.321564/

that was recently announced that's a rather extreme example.

And of course there's the software (game titles). Not everything is available on PlayStation. Counter-Strike 2? Valorant? How many are playing those games on PlayStation right now?

And at some point, cloud gaming might be good enough to ditch dedicated gaming hardware completely for 90% of games. Sure, competitive e-sports players and certain FPS/fast action games might benefit from local hardware but a lot of this stuff can be handled by cloud servers and a fast Internet connection. A game like Microsoft Flight Simulator (with its petabytes of data) would be perfect for cloud gaming. Time needed to download and install a 40GB game update? Zero seconds.

sepheronxSo you can play the current....checks notes.....7 exclusives in better performance and the next 3 exclusives before PS6 comes out.

Waiting for Gotham Knights and DD2 30fps memes

If I overlooked it, I apologize...but something needs to be said about the fellow forum fellas. I remember when this was announced and folks were saying these specs were fake and that Moore's Law is Dead is trash and the information is falls. Not one of those who cried for two nights and one sunrise gave the man his props for pushing out the information to the masses. Who was first MLID or Inside Gamer, I don't know...but MLID matches what Sony confirmed. I saw IG's initial report and there were a few things that haven't been confirmed yet. If you have the energy to trash, have the energy to come through and admit you were wrong.


Next topic about how there won't be any performance gain from PS5 to PS5 Pro is comical. Increasing GPU power will give better frame rates in some titles just like it when we upgrade GPUs in computers. It will offer the best performance for this generation of consoles, period. Do you need to upgrade if you already have a console, no, not unless you want the very best this generation has to offer. I will be buy one and giving my PS5 to my daughter. Looking forward to the PS6 in two or three years as well.

lets hope the ps5 pro doesnt look like a dehumidifier....

I really like to know what kind of magic Sony uses that makes a €400 console outperform a €2000 gpu.

cvaldesI suspect Microsoft's next generation console will be their last hardware gaming device. They are really just trying to buy time for a sustainable cloud gaming service to coalesce whether it be their own or someone else's. If that doesn't materialize in 5-6 years, they will probably sell off Zenimax/Bethesda and eventually downsize the Xbox division to something like a PC game storefront.

And at some point that will probably fritter away into nothing just like pretty much all of their consumer businesses have gone (mobile, Zune, Groove Music, MSN, whatever).

Sony has a much better chance as a large media conglomerate (film, television, music, etc.) in addition to their hardware businesses.

Their recent comment on steam deck suggests as well also adding more focus on to Windows gaming devices.

Knight47I really like to know what kind of magic Sony uses that makes a €400 console outperform a €2000 gpu.

Close-to-the-metal programming.

Knight47I really like to know what kind of magic Sony uses that makes a €400 console outperform a €2000 gpu.

Simple - they don’t. Consoles don’t run equivalent settings to PC Ultra which is what cards are benched at. They also don’t run 4K native most of the time. I am not even going to touch on the RT and PT features. If you could find a mix of settings and upscaling that would be roughly in line with what a PS5 version (or, in future, PS5 Pro) is running on a given game and use those on a 2000 bucks GPU (4090, I assume), then the GPU will outperform the console… quite a bit, actually. Yes, closer to the metal programming and optimization does help consoles, but it’s not a magic bullet. You can’t really substitute raw computational power with it to such a high degree.

Knight47I really like to know what kind of magic Sony uses that makes a €400 console outperform a €2000 gpu.

Marketing magic.

sepheronxExcept that back during covid, it was nearly holding a gun to your head. That's when people made these purchases too. Because people were stuck inside and needing entertainment.

If Sony is doing so well, they wouldn't be shutting down studios and laying off hundreds of people. Maybe I never built the product as you assume, but I doubt you have as well or successful yourself if you think their current play is considered a success.

Japan studio anyone?

When you are more or less the only one in the market for this specific need, of course it will sell. But guess what sold better? Switch. Why? Because it has something that PS5 or Xbox kinda lacks in. It's called "Games"

Yep... but let's consider the fact this very image is also 99% of all Ubisoft titles to begin with.
The eternal open world theme park, where you can easily hide repetitiveness under immersion. People want these worlds to walk around in. That's the draw. The realization that these worlds need to be filled proper comes later. Even linear games want to sell the idea there is 'open' world in them. Lots of examples.

Vayra86Yep... but let's consider the fact this very image is also 99% of all Ubisoft titles to begin with.

This image is, honestly, give or take a few, is like 90% of AAA games nowadays. The whole "open/semi-open world mixture of genres with a lot of (albeit shallow) mechanics that we sorta call action-adventure" is a template that has been the go-to for developers for... a while now. Any additions or changes are due to something becoming popular and then getting added to the formula to try and capitalize. Like the "sudden" inspirations from FromSoft games or when Ubisoft "suddenly" decided to turn AC into a TWitcher 3 knock off. It's that or "member that thing you all liked? we remade it". The industry (at the high-budget end) is almost embarassingly creatively bankrupt.

I'm sure console FFXIV players would appreciate the spec bump.

I wonder if there are titles launching with the ps5 pro or its all gonna be old titles with patch to take advantage of the newer hardware…

Deleted member 239770so just behind a 7700 XT.

www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7700-xt.c3911

So they are replacing the RX 6700 like GPU of the old console with a 7700.

Yay 15% - 20% performance!

3X the RT!!!!!!

When RDNA3 is around 50% faster in RT...


:confused::laugh::banghead:

No mystery. BVH8 traversal is a RNDA4 feature.

Just adding that Moore's Law is Dead's video describing these specs was taken down through a copyright claim from Sony Interactive.
So the specs are pretty much confirmed to be real.

Canned NoodlesWhat is the purpose of dedicated AI hardware on a console? What can it be used for in games?

There's probably no dedicated AI hardware in the PS5 Pro.
300 TOPs sound like a perfect match to a 2.5GHz 60 CU RDNA3 GPU through WMMA when using UINT4 (which BTW might be a good indicator to the GPU's max boost clocks).

Perhaps there is some level of customization in there, like additional instructions Sony asked AMD to perform better at PSSR, but the hardware is still probably just RDNA3.

It doesn't make much sense to put a dedicated high performance AI coprocessor in there to work in parallel with the GPU and CPU, anyways. Memory bandwidth isn't scaling up enough to keep up with the larger GPU, so getting another high performance client to the memory controller wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.


As for what it's being used for, they mention Playstation Spectral Super Resolution, which apparently is a machine learning-driven upscaler that performs better than FSR2, TSR and Sony's own shader-based temporal upscalers.

evernessinceJust for reference the 7900 XTX has 48 WGPs so at 30 I guess this will closer to a 7700 XT than a 7800 XT.

It's probably close to a 7700XT in pure rasterization performance, so around 45% faster than the current PS5.
However Sony seems to be confident that PSSR gets very good results at 50% resolution (per axis), meaning that for a 4K presentation games will be rendered internally at 1080p, whereas with the PS5's current temporal solutions they seem to run mostly at 1440p.
We know that in more demanding GPU-limited games, going from 1440p to 1080p on the 7700XT nets a ~40% performance boost.
So with +45% from faster hardware and +40% from lower base resolution we get 1.45*1.4 = 2.03x better performance.

And this isn't counting with the new RDNA4 RT units doing BVH8, so with raytracing loads we're probably seeing a much larger performance leap.

With that said, it shouldn't be hard for devs to get 60FPS on the same Quality and RT modes where the PS5 gets 30 FPS. And with 60FPS those quality modes can now use frame generation down the road, if there's enough GPU headroom.

DenverHm, More robust cooler and power supply for what? The PS5 Pro's SoC is expected to be manufactured using 5nm/4nm, which suggests it will operate at cooler temperatures compared to the base PS5.

All info points to the new SoC being built on N6.
Looking at xray pictures, a 2x larger GPU from the current 260mm^2 N6 Oberon would result in a ~340mm^2 chip. Which is still less than Series X.

Gta6 on 4k 60fps and everybody are happy.

starfalsIf this is priced well, it will kill PC gaming for everyone that i know. People here already discuss how they hate everything about modern PC gaming, pricing and stuff. How they want a PS5 already, even if its not super powerful. I always see people saying how a 400-500 console play the same games that are 700-1110 euro video cards do... and that's just video cards. There are other PC parts in the PC too, a PC is not just a video card.
I get them honestly, it has gotten too expensive in the last few years. In my country, even a 3070 is like 650 euro, today... even if 4070 is a thing, and similarly priced. GPUs are allergic to discounts, i guess. I will never go to consoles cus i don't enjoy using the controller. Most people don't seem to have that problem.

Except that these people can do the same things as a console with a 200-300 euro videocard.
Buy Radeon RX 7600 and make the settings work for you, end result is same as on the console, or better.
Radeon Boost, FSR, etc... settings dialed down according to the hardware capabilities.

And the games, like already said, are cheaper on the PC than on the console. There are regular discounts, many games are actually free to get.

Haile SelassieClose-to-the-metal programming.

This and tons and tons of upscaling. You don't know how many console gamers I have spoken with that actually think they are getting Native 4k on their PS5.......

IF I were a gamr (thankfully I'm not), I would have to insist that I receive a huge bag of cookies if I were buying this "new" milk version :D

They're as bad as intel & Ngreediya, with their minuscule, nearly insignificant annual/semi-annual imporkments...geez, enough already !

FYI: I prefer Chips ahoy...

PS4 Pro launched only 3 years after PS4 with a GPU that it had double the raster performance of PS4 and it cost the same as original PS4 price ($399/399€) and although it launched in an era that we had the 4K boom by the launch of PS5 it was selling at only 1:4 ratio vs the regular PS4 (some publications mention only 1:5) , now after 4 years the gap in graphics performance between PS5 Pro-PS5 is only +45% in raster (that goes up with PSSR, but also PS4 Pro had hardware supported CBR that the PS4 hadn't, so it was 2X raster + CBR) and the speculation regarding PS5 Pro price is $499-$599.If this sounds unexciting it's because it is!I hope the news regarding Xbox new team dedicated to game preservation and forward compatibility to be an indication that they switched from AMD to a different vendor for Xbox next gen(AMD tech is fine, but if the competition was more hungry to get the deal and offered a better proposal regarding what Xbox team was trying to achieve with next gen then better for us, also we have the remark from Sarah Bond that the next-gen Xbox would mark “the largest technical leap you will have ever seen in a hardware generation" which if it doesn't materialized it will have a huge backlash. (unless we have a new $799-$999 SKU or even worse : a new era 3DO kinda licencing model with PC tech)
Edit : The only way I'm buying the PS5 Pro is if the price is $499 and it is -2 decibel lower than PS5 ( I don't own a PS5, if I had there would be no reason imo)

evernessincePower supply and cooling are possibly improved but that would be something sony opted to do and not necessary. The PS5 Pro is likely to have similar power requirements given the more advanced node. The CPU isn't necessarily being OC'd either, just on a more mature node where you'll naturally be able to increase clocks a bit as time passes. Same as any other silicon product. Software cost? We've only heard of this "spectral" upscaling and almost certainly it was developed in partnership with AMD who already had the pieces laying around to make it. It's almost certainly an offshoot of AMD's upcoming next gen FSR which will use AI. Costs might be higher for Sony if they were developing the hardware but they are doing semi-custom with AMD.

Does the pro need to be more expensive? The PS5 was released in 2020 and it's now 2024. It's entirely possible the end system costs them the same amount given that the cost of a given amount of processing power decreases over time. A 45% increase over 4 years even at the same price isn't that great, let alone at an increased price. I think console gamers need to be cautious not to let what happened to the PC GPU market happen to them. People seem to forget 45 - 60% every 2 1/2 - 3 years was normal for GPUs.



PSVR2 not doing well is due to the complete lack of good games and the inability to use it on PC. The vast majority of AAA studios are trash nowadays, go look at what Oculus is doing for the rift. It's mostly small and medium sized developers that they are paying for exclusives.

I'm just basing my projections on the existing PS4 pro which ended up quite beefier despite being on a more efficient 16nm node. We'll see if the finer node will be enough to offset the increased performance of the GPU/RAM but I doubt it tbh.

Vayra86Marketing magic.

There's more beyond that. PC games have a lot of settings and dials that dumb users push to the max just because they can, then "complain" figuratively speaking that things don't work and that they need to upgrade. Consoles - bar really bad releases like Cyberpunk - just work, at most you have an option to choose between performance or visuals and there aren't even good metrics or benchmarks you can run to see your setup is running better, it just runs.

There's many examples, even youtube channels dedicated to it, of modern games running on the cheapest hw available, it's very much possible but of course we as a species always want moar! no matter what, gaming is just another side to that. Consoles by having fixed hardware and a long hw cycles take that out of the equation.

I was pretty settled on not upgrading to the PS5 Pro, I barely play on the original so why would I bother, but with these specs in advance even if they're not really that much better makes me wonder, need to check how much I can get for mine right now, probably won't loose a lot of money if I sell it fast and the PS4 Pro at least launched at the same price as the original (with the regular one getting a discount).

ModEl4PS4 Pro launched only 3 years after PS4 with a GPU that it had double the raster performance of PS4

The PS4 Pro had indeed twice the execution units of the PS4, but it would never get 2x performance in games because it only got a measly 24% increase in memory bandwidth.
Delta compression certainly helped, but not enough to make the 2x faster GPU scale linearly with 24% in bandwidth.

There are even some statements from devs saying the dev guides themselves claimed the PS4 Pro could never use its whopping 64 ROPs because it lacked the bandwidth to ever make use of them.


The "butterfly GPU" in the PS4 Pro wasn't really an optimal solution, and I guess this is one of the reasons why they're trying to do smarter with the PS5 Pro.

RavenasPC gaming has become too expensive

It's in its historical lowest. 2023 onwards is the first time in the history you can spend $1000 and get a PC capable of 4K60 on reasonably lowered settings with some upscaling (occasionally aggressive to be brutally honest with you). A $2000 investment nets you at least some RT and no upscaling in most titles, also providing you with 4K144 experience even in recent titles. 2017, the age of praised Pascal, only provided you with a 4-core last-genish CPU alongside GTX 1060 or best case scenario 1070 if you had about ten Franklins and that already struggled with 1440p, 4K wasn't and isn't a thing for such GPUs. 2010? Even 1080p gaming was a total luxury.

Yeah, consoles became the same level more advanced. But first: console games are usually more expensive; second: you don't get graphical cutting edge if you're a console gamer; third: you can't upgrade your console; fourth: consoles aren't as good of a PC as a... *chuckles* PC. Hence the much lower price. You pay little for the device, a lot for the service. With the PC as a concept, it's quite the opposite.

I can't elaborately measure the PS5 Pro because of this confusing "+ RDNA 4" in the mix, like, we know nothing about this architecture and this "up to 3 times the performance" needs its mist to be thoroughly blown out. Is it just marketing or is it real? Will we get PS5 exclusives worth investing into? I personally don't know. The noise word, "AI," however, makes it feel dirty. Eh.