Monday, June 10th 2024

Nightmare Fuel for Intel: Arm CEO Predicts Arm will Take Over 50% Windows PC Market-share by 2029

Arm CEO Rene Haas predicts that SoCs based on the Arm CPU machine architecture will beat x86 in the Windows PC space in the next 5 years (by 2029). Haas is bullish about the current crop of Arm SoCs striking the right balance of performance and power efficiency, along with just the right blend of on-chip acceleration for AI and graphics, to make serious gains in this market, which has traditionally been dominated by the x86 machine architecture, with chips from just two manufacturers—Intel and AMD. On the other hand, Arm has a vibrant ecosystem of SoC vendors. "Arm's market share in Windows - I think, truly, in the next five years, it could be better than 50%." Haas said, in an interview with Reuters.

Currently, Microsoft has an exclusive deal with Qualcomm to power Windows-on-Arm (WoA) Copilot+ AI PCs. Qualcomm's chip lineup spans the Snapdragon Elite X and Snapdragon Elite Plus. This exclusivity, however, could change, with a recent interview of Michael Dell and Jensen Huang hinting at NVIDIA working on a chip for the AI PC market. The writing is on the wall for Intel and AMD—they need to compete with Arm on its terms: to make leaner PC processors with the kinds of performance/Watt and chip costs that Arm SoCs offer to PC OEMs. Intel has taken a big step in this direction with its "Lunar Lake" processor, you can read all about the architecture here.
Source: Electronics Weekly
Add your own comment

112 Comments on Nightmare Fuel for Intel: Arm CEO Predicts Arm will Take Over 50% Windows PC Market-share by 2029

#51
redeye
and apple will not benefit from this?…

baby steps ARM, when windows on ARM surpasses Apples laptops and iPads, then we can predict when windows on ARM will take over the World.

heck, has linux on ARM laptops (NON-apple chips) have 50% share? (for this argument only count attached displays)
Posted on Reply
#52
Darmok N Jalad
Philaphlouslol! I always love seeing predictions and seeing how wrong they are with hindsight... Makes me wonder if NVIDIA will really in-fact be the AI leader going forward...sure looks like it but who knows...
Yeah, and MS was shoveling money into WP at that time. When Surface RT came out, there were a few other players that made WOA tablets, including ones powered by Qualcomm. MS threw a lot of money at WOA tablets back then, too. Maybe it was too soon back then and WOA is finally viable, but so far we just have hype, which is expected. I’m heavily skeptical, especially since MS just laid an egg with its handling of Recall.
Posted on Reply
#53
Upgrayedd
ARFAMD is a bigger and more stable company than intel. And even Qualcomm.

AMD:


Qualcomm:


intel:




Err, they can always continue to make 22 and 32nm products for lower performance devices.
P/E ratio for AMD is 236
Qualcomm 28 P/E
Intel is 32 P/E
Apple is 30 P/E

Market cap is not cash on hand. AMD is highly overvalued on the stock market. I think intel has like 5x the cash on hand vs AMD.
Posted on Reply
#54
Leiesoldat
lazy gamer & woodworker
Linus and Luke had a very interesting interview on the WAN Show a couple weeks back with Jim Keller that provided some good information on RISC-V as the dominant architecture within the next decade or so. I encourage people to look that up and have a listen to what Jim Keller talked about. x86 has a lot of legacy baggage attached to it that is bogging down future developments, but as consumers we're not going to notice the architecture backend switch from x86 to RISC-V or ARM if that happens. I know I don't notice any difference going from x86 MacOS to current Apple Silicon MacOS.
Posted on Reply
#55
persondb
ARFCan you explain the failure of this instruction: AVX-512? It turned out to be a power hog, and was abandoned.
Why was that? And what solution does RISC-V have to compute as an alternative?
AVX-512 wasn't a 'failure'. It was the implementation of it that it was a failure at the time due to it causing clocks regressions when it was active(because it consumed too much power).

If someone also did similar featured ISA with same clocks, node and design constraints of Intel, it would have been the same result.

If you look at Emerald Rapids AVX-512 benchmarks by Phoronix, you will see that Intel has no such issues anymore.

www.phoronix.com/review/intel-5th-gen-xeon-avx512
Posted on Reply
#56
Darmok N Jalad
LeiesoldatLinus and Luke had a very interesting interview on the WAN Show a couple weeks back with Jim Keller that provided some good information on RISC-V as the dominant architecture within the next decade or so. I encourage people to look that up and have a listen to what Jim Keller talked about. x86 has a lot of legacy baggage attached to it that is bogging down future developments, but as consumers we're not going to notice the architecture backend switch from x86 to RISC-V or ARM if that happens. I know I don't notice any difference going from x86 MacOS to current Apple Silicon MacOS.
What Apple did right was they did the unpopular move of dropping 32bit apps way back with Catalina, and they made the dev kit so that recompiling existing 64bit apps was relatively easy to do. That first move essentially eliminated a lot of legacy stuff that would never get recompiled, and so the jump to Apple Silicon was about as painless as an architecture jump could be.

I think the question for Windows is are they as prepared for this as Apple was. I know 64bit apps are covered, but I don’t know about 32bit, which covers a lot of legacy software, including many classic game engines. The other big unknown is how good Qualcomm is going to be with graphics drivers. No one expects their Mac to really play games, since Mac gaming has never been that popular. Can’t say the same for Windows. Will there be issues playing stuff that similarly priced x86 machines can handle just fine? I don’t doubt that for many basic users, WOA is enough, and might even be ideal, but is that 50% of Windows users? Not so sure about that, and the current crop of Snapdragon X devices aren’t budget priced, so they might be targeting the wrong market from the get go.
Posted on Reply
#57
AnotherReader
Darmok N JaladWhat Apple did right was they did the unpopular move of dropping 32bit apps way back with Catalina, and they made the dev kit so that recompiling existing 64bit apps was relatively easy to do. That first move essentially eliminated a lot of legacy stuff that would never get recompiled, and so the jump to Apple Silicon was about as painless as an architecture jump could be.

I think the question for Windows is are they as prepared for this as Apple was. I know 64bit apps are covered, but I don’t know about 32bit, which covers a lot of legacy software, including many classic game engines. The other big unknown is how good Qualcomm is going to be with graphics drivers. No one expects their Mac to really play games, since Mac gaming has never been that popular. Can’t say the same for Windows. Will there be issues playing stuff that similarly priced x86 machines can handle just fine? I don’t doubt that for many basic users, WOA is enough, and might even be ideal, but is that 50% of Windows users? Not so sure about that, and the current crop of Snapdragon X devices aren’t budget priced, so they might be targeting the wrong market from the get go.
Unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't have to worry about legacy users. In Microsoft's case, dropping 32-bit support would be a mistake as unlike Apple's software, backwards compatibility is a key feature of Windows. You're right about Qualcomm's aspirations not matching the goal of a 50% market share; they seem to be focused on the higher end of the laptop market.
Posted on Reply
#58
natr0n
OnasiAh yes, breaking news - coffee shop owner predicts that coffee will overtake water as the most consumed beverage in the world by 20XX. “Chances are good,” he says, “especially considering we have an exclusive agreement with McDonalds to pour coffee into customers cup regardless of their order”.
I am obviously being extremely snarky here, but such predictions are usually based on providing the best optics for shareholders.
Then diabetes and blood pressures increase from that... then medicines profits quadruple. You have henchmen guarding a building of fatcats lighting cigars with 100 bills... Batman is constipated and spider-man has arthritis...My imagination took off.
Posted on Reply
#59
Assimilator
LeiesoldatRISC-V as the dominant architecture within the next decade or so
LOL, no. Where do you children come up with this nonsense?
Posted on Reply
#60
Onasi
AssimilatorLOL, no. Where do you children come up with this nonsense?
I am placing my bets on RISC-V becoming a dominant architecture right about the same time as Linux becomes a dominant desktop OS.
Posted on Reply
#61
kondamin
AssimilatorLOL, no. Where do you children come up with this nonsense?
It is going to push arm out of a lot of appliances like washing machines, alarm systems, routers etc where only a fraction of isa extensions are needed for them to run properly.
Posted on Reply
#62
Daven
AssimilatorLOL, no. Where do you children come up with this nonsense?
Assimilator, Intel is going away as the dominant anything in the coming years. You cannot refute what people say just because it's not Intel. Sure, it may not be RISC-V as such things are hard to predict. But what's not hard to predict is the downfall of Intel. They will not be gone but will become a small player in however the industry shakes out in the coming years. Again, don't refute what I'm saying just because I say it will not be Intel. That's not evidence enough. Not anymore. Intel made too many mistakes and the past is no longer relevant in today's environment. Intel cannot come back and other technologies (some present, some yet to be revealed) are now leading the way.
Posted on Reply
#63
R0H1T
DavenAssimilator, Intel is going away as the dominant anything in the coming years. You cannot refute what people say just because it's not Intel. Sure, it may not be RISC-V as such things are hard to predict. But what's not hard to predict is the downfall of Intel. They will not be gone but will become a small player in however the industry shakes out in the coming years. Again, don't refute what I'm saying just because I say it will not be Intel. That's not evidence enough. Not anymore. Intel made too many mistakes and the past is no longer relevant in today's environment. Intel cannot come back and other technologies (some present, some yet to be revealed) are now leading the way.
And they're getting what hundreds(tens?) of billions of dollars in subsidies for making fabs nearly everywhere in the world? Yeah atm Intel is to US what GM was 20-30 years back, too big to fail!
Posted on Reply
#64
maximumterror
Dr. DroIn the past, AMD's Opteron ARM processors were some of the most commercially unsuccessful products the company has ever launched. Would be interesting how that would pan out today, though.
some sources says completely opposite:
"Customer ignorance of alternatives to the Pentium series further contributed to these designs being comparatively unsuccessful, despite the fact that the K5 had very good Pentium compatibility and the 6x86 was significantly faster than the Pentium on integer code.[j] AMD later managed to grow into a serious contender with the K6 set of processors, which gave way to the very successful Athlon and Opteron"
Posted on Reply
#65
kondamin
DavenAssimilator, Intel is going away as the dominant anything in the coming years. You cannot refute what people say just because it's not Intel. Sure, it may not be RISC-V as such things are hard to predict. But what's not hard to predict is the downfall of Intel. They will not be gone but will become a small player in however the industry shakes out in the coming years. Again, don't refute what I'm saying just because I say it will not be Intel. That's not evidence enough. Not anymore. Intel made too many mistakes and the past is no longer relevant in today's environment. Intel cannot come back and other technologies (some present, some yet to be revealed) are now leading the way.
Bit to pessimistic about intel there They are employing a lot of very smart people and are using the same technology TSMC is.
there is nothing that makes one a better company than the other

Also TSMC has had it's own pitfalls over the years never mind Samsung
Posted on Reply
#67
Darmok N Jalad
I think we need to see how Intel's tile approach pans out. I think they might be on to something there, even if it's just mobile. After all, so far Qualcomm is only threatening in this ultra mobile space, and Arrow Lake could be better. I've yet to see a passively cooled SDX model too. Are they even possible? If not, then I'm not all that impressed. So far, only Apple has been able to pull off a passively-cooled laptop that doesn't suck, even when it heats up.
Posted on Reply
#68
R0H1T
Well I'm pretty sure Apple power limits the chips on Macbook Air, I have the M2 mini & even with a smallish fan it can get hot/loud in stress tests or benchmarks. You can get it past 90C relatively easily, with VM as well. If Intel/AMD throttle their best chips they can get close to the "Apple" effect just with lower ST scores!
Posted on Reply
#69
Daven
kondaminthere is nothing that makes one a better company than the other
Exactly. Here is the best CPU market share prediction across all segments after the next 5-6 years:

Intel 11%
AMD 11%
Apple 11%
Qualcomm 11%
Mediatek 11%
Nvidia 11%
Other ARM 11%
Other RISC-V 11%
Unknown future tech 11%
Pie 1%

Error +/- 11%

For a company that use to have >90% market share across all segments, this is extremely, extremely bad for Intel even under increases in TAM (total addressable market).
Posted on Reply
#70
R0H1T
Where's the other 1% o_O
Posted on Reply
#71
Dr. Dro
maximumterrorsome sources says completely opposite:
"Customer ignorance of alternatives to the Pentium series further contributed to these designs being comparatively unsuccessful, despite the fact that the K5 had very good Pentium compatibility and the 6x86 was significantly faster than the Pentium on integer code.[j] AMD later managed to grow into a serious contender with the K6 set of processors, which gave way to the very successful Athlon and Opteron"
I specifically meant the Opteron ARM chips, not the Opteron (now EPYC) server processor line in itself. Did you ask ChatGPT that? LOL

That reminds me, most Optys are hella cheap these days. Not sure about the motherboards though, but makes for a super fun quad-socket build.
Posted on Reply
#72
Daven
R0H1TWhere's the other 1% o_O
Its the tenth item in my list… pie.
Posted on Reply
#73
Garrus
Their main miscalculation is the lack of GPU power. The #1 reason people buy new PCs or laptops is for GPU performance, not CPU performance.

They need to double their iGPU to really tempt most of the market.

NVidia is king, not Intel. But you don't beat Intel unless you provide a GPU option.

Nvidia + Qualcomm might work, but better to double the Qualcomm GPU instead, as soon as possible.

I feel like they used all the die space for the NPU and cut the GPU back too much as a consequence.

Apple's number one problem is lack of ram and storage. Qualcomm's is lack of GPU power.

Intel and AMD still have the ram, the storage, the GPU. The things people want. The entire package.
Posted on Reply
#74
Steevo
DavenAs a diehard DIY PC enthusiast, I want what you want. But workloads and storage are moving to the cloud, for the majority of the planet, a smartphone is the only ‘computer’ most will ever own and once an industry goes super mainstream, boutique parts are relegated to hobbiests.

In the future, discrete GPUs for desktops, consumer purchaseable socketed CPUs and other DIY parts will become antiques as the computing world moves to wearables, ‘dumb terminals’ that fit in your pocket and massive super computing arrays.

Having to sit in a stationary position (desk) while interacting with a piece of plastic (mouse) to use a box connected with wires (desktop) will look barbaric to users in the not so distant future.
As a user of smartphones, cloud data entry on a smartphone is retarded. At the minimum a thin client is needed to run spreadsheets or data entry, and usually a larger screen.

Once I see a 15 inch truly instant on tablet with a good keyboard (10 key required) that also has good battery life, a bright screen, and doesn't lag when two or three tabs and a couple programs are open....

I have a S22 and Iphone 15 Pro, even with a link to the cloud spreadsheets it's slow, so slow I choose to use my work laptop or PC 95% of the time.


RISC is a chosen bunch of acceleration units on a chip, no more power efficient than a X86-64 chip with the same acceleration parts.
Posted on Reply
#75
phanbuey
john_Qualcomm seems to have all the support from Microsoft and big OEMs like Dell. And seeing Dell supporting Qualcomm is too alarming for x86 and Intel particularly. I guess Dell is trying to secure itself in case Intel's fab business fails and with it, Intel fails. Also no wonder Dell keeps downplaying the existence of AMD and goes with Qualcomm today, probably Nvidia tomorrow. Dell was always favoring the bigger company as their (almost exclusive) partner.
So dell is getting its lunch eaten by apple - their move to qualcomm was to combat the M chips -- the difference between Intel and AMD chips in laptops vs ARM is actually pretty slim -- AMD is better but not by that much, and it's nowhere near M3-M4 levels of performance. X86 is slow and hot as hell - my 7845hx below in an Asus G17 (big boi)...


Intel / AMD can't touch ARM or the Apple M's ARM based design in performance/watt.
Posted on Reply
Add your own comment
Nov 21st, 2024 09:14 EST change timezone

New Forum Posts

Popular Reviews

Controversial News Posts