Neo_MorpheusWe have less than 5 games that properly use RT yet we are made believe otherwise.

Slightly more than that:
www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/nvidia-rtx-games-engines-apps/

londisteSlightly more than that:
www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/nvidia-rtx-games-engines-apps/

I think what he meant is there are probably 5 games where RT actually meaningfully improves the visuals....

For me it's

Witcher 3 NG
Cyberpunk 2077
Alan Wake 2
Ratchet and Clank
Control
Metro Exodus EE
Spiderman
Quake 2 RTX
Portal RTX
Minecraft (haven't played this but it does look way better with RT)

Most games do it pretty terribly though RE 4 Remake is absolutely trash when it comes to RT those F1 games and countless others I'd say probably 1 in 10 games that has RT does it well and that might be generous....

londisteSlightly more than that:
www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/nvidia-rtx-games-engines-apps/

5, 230, all in the same ballpark right?

I’m sure he’ll be coming back to explain to you what “proper use” is. I’ll bet you a lunch it’s anything AMD performance doesn’t tank in.

oxrufiioxoI think what he meant is there are probably 5 games where RT actually meaningfully improves the visuals....

For me it's

Witcher 3 NG
Cyberpunk 2077
Alan Wake 2
Ratchet and Clank
Control
Metro Exodus EE
Spiderman
Quake 2 RTX
Portal RTX
Minecraft (haven't played this but it does look way better with RT)

Most games do it pretty terribly though RE 4 Remake is absolutely trash when it comes to RT those F1 games and countless others I'd say probably 1 in 10 games that has RT does it well and that might be generous....

I would add:
Portal Prelude
A Plague Tale: Requiem
Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora
Chernobylite
Deathloop
Diablo IV
Fortnite
Ghostwire: Tokyo
Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice
LEGO Builder's Journey
Miles Morales
Pinball FX
Hitman 3
Hellblade: Senua's Saga

Visible NoiseIf slow, hot and lacking features is how you define the better product maybe it’s best to have a finger pointed at you. Unless you think Intel makes better CPUs than AMD?

wolfI have no idea how they came to the conclusion the 7900GRE is the better product, but I know many vocal users cite reasons beyond the actual objective specs and facets of the products themselves, such is tribalism and a false sense of moral high ground.

Maybe you both are trolls, no?

Which product is slow?

There must be a global professional investigation against nvidia for cheating, using dlss as the default setting, making slow GPUs appear good on the charts.

Let's compare the slow RX 7600 with the even slower RTX 4060, which is a junk, leftover byproduct, rebadge of something GT **30 class, or *50 LE class.

RTX 4060 vs RX 7600:

vs

ARFMaybe you both are trolls, no?

I'm just objective and see the world for what it is, some products are better than others, but price can make virtually anything appealing.

ARFWhich product is slow?

AMD's, relative to what Nvidia can achieve with smaller dies and less power. Cost is a separate but very valid argument, where both camps could very much stand to launch at sharper prices and price lower relative to product delivered.

ARFThere must be a global professional investigation against nvidia for cheating, using dlss as the default setting, making slow GPUs appear good on the charts.

Keen to hear how you go with that, keep us posted?

ARFLet's compare the slow RX 7600 with the even slower RTX 4060, which is a junk, leftover byproduct, rebadge of something GT **30 class, or *50 LE class.

RTX 4060 vs RX 7600:

vs

What an excellent example, for all the extra spec on paper, the 4060 performs far better relative to its less 'spec' behind it. not bad for a 4050 right? The only thing wrong with it is the price, and perhaps the name if we dare to care that much.



You weren't even talking about the 7600 or 4060 before, you were talking about the 7900GRE, why change the goalposts? Maybe you're the troll?

wolfKeen to hear how you go with that, keep us posted?

What an excellent example, for all the extra spec on paper, the 4060 performs far better relative to its less 'spec' behind it. not bad for a 4050 right? The only thing wrong with it is the price, and perhaps the name if we dare to care that much.

Learn. Educate yourself.

ARFLearn. Educate yourself.

I'm quite certain I can't learn anything from you except what not to do.

And nice work changing the goalposts yet again, it's impressive the speed you can do it and dodge what I've said.

I've done and continue to do my own testing on my vast range of hardware and systems, and don't need.. uhh cherry picked comments? and poorly recorded video's? to attempt to "prove" anything to me.

Good luck with the global professional investigation.

oxrufiioxoI think what he meant is there are probably 5 games where RT actually meaningfully improves the visuals....

For me it's

Witcher 3 NG
Cyberpunk 2077
Alan Wake 2
Ratchet and Clank
Control
Metro Exodus EE
Spiderman
Quake 2 RTX
Portal RTX
Minecraft (haven't played this but it does look way better with RT)

Most games do it pretty terribly though RE 4 Remake is absolutely trash when it comes to RT those F1 games and countless others I'd say probably 1 in 10 games that has RT does it well and that might be generous....

The important question is, for how many games do you upgrade your GPU? Cause 5 is a lot. I mean I've played 10-15 games with my 4090 but half of them worked fine with my old card, I upgraded my GPU just for a couple of them. Having 5 games with meaningful RT, that's a LOT.

fevgatosThe important question is, for how many games do you upgrade your GPU? Cause 5 is a lot. I mean I've played 10-15 games with my 4090 but half of them worked fine with my old card, I upgraded my GPU just for a couple of them. Having 5 games with meaningful RT, that's a LOT.

Honestly all it takes is one game for me if I want to play something like CP2077 or Alan Wake 2 with PT only one gpu can really do it...... So it is what it is.

Still it's not like there are a ton of games that are transformative with it on and it's been what 6 years since the first RT capable gpu..... I do expect more and more games over time to get amazing RT anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

Also people pushing RT performance as a must have on anything below the 4070 makes me lol pretty hard even the 4070 struggles at it but it can do it ok with heavy DLSS which some what defeats the point of improving visuals.

I love RT don't get me wrong but there are still a ton of games that the performance hit doesn't justify the visual upgrade.

Visible NoiseHellblade: Senua's Saga

Only uses software lumen on PC/Console I believe there is no way the reflections on water would look as bad as they do if it was hardware lumen otherwise the game looks fantastic and other than resolution even looks great on console.

Honestly it looks much better than a lot of games with RT......

oxrufiioxoSame with what Nvidia has done with Vram on the lower tiers I hate seeing stagnation in any form.... The low end matters just as much if not more than the high end and without year on year improvements we will see stagnation kinda like the half decade plus of mainstream quad cores...

I couldn't agree more.

I'm only trying to find solace in the fact that game graphics aren't evolving as quickly as they used to, either, so faster GPUs aren't as badly needed as we may think at times. I needed a high-end CPU and GPU to achieve stable 60 FPS at 1080p in the latest games 10 years ago. Nowadays, a Ryzen 5 / Core i5 and a x60-class GPU can do it. Bump up the resolution to 1440p, and you're still only at x70-class at most.

Part of the problem might be that chip makers seem to be giving up on new nodes as the development costs are getting too great. TSMC seems to be in a monopoly on the most advanced 3-7 nm ones, but even they're increasing prices way beyond the benefits. This is proven by cards like the RX 7600, which isn't just a node shrink of the 6600 XT, but also a new architecture, yet, it performs and costs the same. AMD and Nvidia might be in a position when they can't rely on the good old "let's just cram more cores into a denser die" method anymore, yet they're still doing just that (if you don't count all the DLSS/AI bullshit). They need something way more architectural to improve future generations, which also drives up costs.

oxrufiioxo...beyond something like Hellblade 2 we might be hitting a limit of what rasterization can do and only true path tracing or something that hasn't been invented yet will actually lead to any meaningful improvements going forward.

IMO, what we need is better surfaces on humanoids and other living things, especially in the rain, and better animations. Map detail and lighting are awesome, but humans still look and act like porcelain dolls.

oxrufiioxoAt the very least I think both you and me can agree they really need to come up with something hardware agnostic that is much better than TAA at the same performance hit lol.....

I'm not that bothered by TAA, to be honest, but I do agree on the hardware agnostic part.

oxrufiioxoI think what he meant is there are probably 5 games where RT actually meaningfully improves the visuals....

I think the big question is on the "meaningful" part. What does it mean? Meaningful enough to notice the difference? Or meaningful enough to buy a $1,600 graphics card? My answer to the first question is mostly no, sometimes maybe, but for the second one, it's a definite never.

AusWolfI think the big question is on the "meaningful" part. What does it mean? Meaningful enough to notice the difference? Or meaningful enough to buy a $1,600 graphics card? My answer to the first question is mostly no, sometimes maybe, but for the second one, it's a definite never.

Better enough that I wouldn't play or want to play the game without it which is all of 3 games currently.

AusWolfIMO, what we need is better surfaces on humanoids and other living things, especially in the rain, and better animations. Map detail and lighting are awesome, but humans still look and act like porcelain dolls.

Yeah, texture resolution is still pretty bad in a lot of games as well.

The humans in Hellblade 2 are the best I've ever seen in real time it'll fool you into thinking it's cgi at times.

I mostly meant I doubt we will see open world games with the same fidelity of Hellblade 2 for a long time mostly due to the time and resources it would take to craft a whole world to that level. It's going to take either multibounce pathtracing or something new that doesn't exist to have a greater visual impact. I'm interested to see what The coalition does with the engine though their work on Gears 5 basically running on an HD 7770 and some mobile cores is insane.

Visible Noise5, 230, all in the same ballpark right?

I’m sure he’ll be coming back to explain to you what “proper use” is. I’ll bet you a lunch it’s anything AMD performance doesn’t tank in.



I would add:
Portal Prelude
A Plague Tale: Requiem
Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora
Chernobylite
Deathloop
Diablo IV
Fortnite
Ghostwire: Tokyo
Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice
LEGO Builder's Journey
Miles Morales
Pinball FX
Hitman 3
Hellblade: Senua's Saga

D4?! Lmao. Hellblade doesnt need it either... or ghostwire.

I see we have journeyed into green vs red and RT fantasy land... I guess thats all this thread's gonna give now.

Vayra86D4?! Lmao. Hellblade doesnt need it either... or ghostwire.

Honestly the only rasterized effect that really needs to die is screen space reflections they are god awful in every game I really wish they'd either come up with a better technique at a similar cost or just drop it completely for RT even software lumen one of the better implementations is bad.

oxrufiioxoHonestly the only rasterized effect that really needs to die is screen space reflections they are god awful in every game I really wish they'd either come up with a better technique at a similar cost or just drop it completely for RT even software lumen one of the better implementations is bad.

Yeah SSR I can get into, to a degree, there is a fidelity impact there but really the only games where it makes a big impact are first person games. Even 3rd person already has camera limitations that kind of make it pointless; not too many angles to view reflections at make SSR decent enough.

oxrufiioxoBetter enough that I wouldn't play or want to play the game without it which is all of 3 games currently.

Oh, in that case, it's a total of 0 games for me.

I notice (and appreciate) the difference in Cyberpunk and Control, but I don't need it to enjoy the game. I also tried RT in Alan Wake 2, but that game looks so awesome even without it that I honestly don't care. :)

oxrufiioxoYeah, texture resolution is still pretty bad in a lot of games as well.

And that's why I think extra VRAM (and games building around it) is more useful than RT, AI upscaling and other gimmicks... at least to me. Lights and shadows can be faked to look good, but textures can't.

oxrufiioxoThe humans in Hellblade 2 are the best I've ever seen in real time it'll fool you into thinking it's cgi at times.

I haven't tried Hellblade 2, but I've heard good things about it. Unfortunately, online-only games are on my no-buy list.

wolfI'm quite certain I can't learn anything from you except what not to do.

Would you stop the trolling?
You must learn from the global community which has much more knowledge than you.

ARFWould you stop the trolling?
You must learn from the global community which has much more knowledge than you.

Sheeple with clickbait videos that you fall for are not a great group to be associated with buddy. Live and learn. You are spouting complete nonsense.

ARFWould you stop the trolling?
You must learn from the global community which has much more knowledge than you.

I'm not, I'm perhaps foolishly responding to you despite you moving the goalposts constantly and trolling me with bs that has already been and gone for a long time, which I also personally looked into and found to be worthless.

You might do well to take some of your own advice, I sincerely hope you learn from all this.

AusWolfI think the big question is on the "meaningful" part. What does it mean? Meaningful enough to notice the difference? Or meaningful enough to buy a $1,600 graphics card? My answer to the first question is mostly no, sometimes maybe, but for the second one, it's a definite never.

Menaingful enough to buy an nvidia card that is faster in rt than a similarly priced amd card.

ARF

I only have two questions I'm not sure anyone can answer: why did I waste 10 minutes of my life to watch these videos, and how do I get it back?

fevgatosMenaingful enough to buy an nvidia card that is faster in rt than a similarly priced amd card.

The problem is that there's no similarly priced AMD card. Nvidia is roughly 50-100 quid more expensive across every tier.

Ironically just snagged a 4080 Super FE, hotstock popped whilst I was eating a porkpie, by the time I got to it, notification was 7 minutes old, but no issues buying it.

I had already read this thread, and though about waiting for 5000 series, but everything seems to point to even bigger cards and even bigger power requirements, so I will keep to my plans, and see what I end up getting for the 3080 to offset the cost.

ARF

Wow, amazing. Running two different displays, one of them is playing a recording which is clamped to sRGB color space. Can't believe they actually look different!

AusWolfThe problem is that there's no similarly priced AMD card. Nvidia is roughly 50-100 quid more expensive across every tier.

Well not across every rt tier, amd cards are more expensive for same rt performance.

fevgatosWell not across every rt tier, amd cards are more expensive for same rt performance.

Luckily RT performance is still not needed as much as pure raster performance.

ChomiqWow, amazing. Running two different displays, one of them is playing a recording which is clamped to sRGB color space. Can't believe they actually look different!

Nah, the explanation is that nvidia cards can't display colors. You heard it here first

Adrenalin has an option to make the colors super saturated, you just click and it enables (or is on by default, not sure) which can explain any differences. I have my 6900hs laptop and my 4090 desktop connected to the same screen and colors are identical

ChomiqLuckily RT performance is still not needed as much as pure raster performance.

Personal preference. If you wanna buy a card and keep it long amd is better because 2-3 years down the line RT won't be playable on your old card even if it's an nvidia one. If you upgrade every gen nvidia is clearly the better option though.