Thursday, September 5th 2024

Intel 20A Node Cancelled for Foundry Customers, "Arrow Lake" Mainly Manufactured Externally

Intel has announced the cancellation of its 20A node for Foundry customers, as well as shifting majority of Arrow Lake production to external foundries. The tech giant will instead focus its resources on the more advanced 18A node while relying on external partners for Arrow Lake production, likely tapping TSMC or Samsung for their 2 nm nodes. The decision follows Intel's successful release of the 18A Process Design Kit (PDK) 1.0 in July, which garnered positive feedback from the ecosystem, according to the company. Intel reports that the 18A node is already operational, booting operating systems and yielding well, keeping the company on track for a 2025 launch. This early success has enabled Intel to reallocate engineering resources from 20A to 18A sooner than anticipated. As a result, the "Arrow Lake processor family will be built primarily using external partners and packaged by Intel Foundry".

The 20A node, while now cancelled for Arrow Lake, has played a crucial role in Intel's journey towards 18A. It served as a testbed for new techniques, materials, and transistor architectures essential for advancing Moore's Law. The 20A node successfully integrated both RibbonFET gate-all-around transistor architecture and PowerVia backside power delivery for the first time, providing valuable insights that directly informed the development of 18A. Intel's decision to focus on 18A is also driven by economic factors. With the current 18A defect density already at D0 <0.40, the company sees an opportunity to optimize its engineering investments by transitioning now. However, challenges remain, as evidenced by recent reports of Broadcom's disappointment in the 18A node. Despite these hurdles, Intel remains optimistic about the future of its foundry services and the potential of its advanced manufacturing processes. The coming months will be crucial as the company works to demonstrate the capabilities of its 18A node and secure more partners for its foundry business.
Source: Intel
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72 Comments on Intel 20A Node Cancelled for Foundry Customers, "Arrow Lake" Mainly Manufactured Externally

#51
R0H1T
Visible NoiseWhere does that say foundry in the 20A section?

Here’s Intel saying 18A is the foundry node back in February, which agrees with your slide:
www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/intel-foundry-head-stu-pann-explains-companys-plan-to-build-arm-chips-move-more-manufacturing-to-the-us
The slide is from 2023, mentions "manufacturing ready" 2024 first half for future "client" product which probably was to be ARL(?) & what do you mean by foundry node exactly? The roadmap obviously changed but there's no indication they were just going to use it to throw it away in the bin any time till last year :rolleyes:
Posted on Reply
#52
ToxicTaZ
londisteInteresting. What the hell is Arrow Lake manufactured on then? TSMC N3? N4? :D
Depends on what they mean "primarily" of course. Until now they have said cores chiplet is Intel and 20A.
Intel Arrow Lake is On TSMC 3nm
Posted on Reply
#53
qcmadness
RandallFlaggWell that's one way you can demonstrate your complete ignorance.

Meteor Lake is using Intel 4.

www.techinsights.com/blog/intel-core-meteor-lake-intel4-io-die-digital-floorplan-analysis

Moreover, Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest are on Intel 3.

www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/intel-launches-144-core-sierra-forrest-xeon-6-cpus-granite-rapids-follows-in-q3


Can you buy products with Intel 4 anywhere?
But I know we could buy products with TSMC N3 anywhere.
Posted on Reply
#54
kondamin
EternitSo they will be pointless as Intel will be TSMC customer.
exactly, it would put the US in the same position China is now.

an image comes to mind from a satirical 'childrens'book The Tin-Pot Foreign General and the Old Iron Woman (if you have a library card, you might want to look it up and read it. it's a nice book)
x.com/gray/status/1557287299582509056/photo/2

replace the boats with fabs, although I'm certain there will be boats too. Loads of parallels could be drawn with the book and today.
But that's not what TPU is about so I better shut up about it.

Anyway: Intel fabs without intel as the main user would mean an other Glofo that can't earn enough to update to the latest technology and will be defunct in a decade or so.
Posted on Reply
#55
Visible Noise
Loo
R0H1TThe slide is from 2023, mentions "manufacturing ready" 2024 first half for future "client" product which probably was to be ARL(?) & what do you mean by foundry node exactly? The roadmap obviously changed but there's no indication they were just going to use it to throw it away in the bin any time till last year :rolleyes:
look at the title and read the article you are commenting on.

Intel 20A Node Cancelled for Foundry Customers

Then look at your slide. Does it show 20A as being a foundry node, like it shows for 18A? So by your own evidence 20A was never a foundry node.

Did you read the interview from Feb where Intel says 18A is the foundry node?

I’m hoping that someone that registered here 11 years ago knows what a foundry is.
Posted on Reply
#56
chrcoluk
FiRethis smells like "20A has oxidation issues too, we're outsourcing this and then working on/fixing 18A"
Bit of speculating there.
Posted on Reply
#58
R0H1T
Visible NoiseThen look at your slide. Does it show 20A as being a foundry node, like it shows for 18A? So by your own evidence 20A was never a foundry node.

Did you read the interview from Feb where Intel says 18A is the foundry node?

I’m hoping that someone that registered here 11 years ago knows what a foundry is.
I asked you what "foundry" node is; what do you think it means? And no, it was never supposed to be an internal dev(?) node just to scrape later! No one does that, especially not in the situation where Intel is courting other potential customers :wtf:
Posted on Reply
#59
kondamin
R0H1TI asked you what "foundry" node is; what do you think it means? And no, it was never supposed to be an internal dev(?) node just to scrape later! No one does that, especially not in the situation where Intel is courting other potential customers :wtf:
The a18 was going to be offered to external customers like Broadcom.
a20 wasgoing to,be something intel was going to be using them selves
Posted on Reply
#60
R0H1T
Right & that's why I said what's an internal dev node supposed to mean? It was supposed to be used for ARL, if some reports are to be believed, & no one would spend billions just to abandon a node! It sends a bad signal to your customers that if you can't execute stuff for your own internal consumption properly what'd happen to them?

Hey look what we've got for you a shiny new 18/14A node which is 10~20% better than 20A you know the last node we cancelled :slap:
Posted on Reply
#61
pressing on
phanbueyThe worst decision right now would be to get rid of Pat IMO. A change in direction now could actually be fatal.
The main issue could be whether there is a serious buyer out there for part or all of the Intel business. The only one that comes to mind is Qualcomm, particularly for the PC design part of Intel and maybe the graphics business but probably not the server segment. But such a selling of some of Intel's assets to Qualcomm still leaves the issue of what to do with the foundries. Ultimately if the USA wants foundries on its soil it may just have to accept that bailing out the Intel foundry business is the least worst option.
Posted on Reply
#62
londiste
pressing onThe main issue could be whether there is a serious buyer out there for part or all of the Intel business. The only one that comes to mind is Qualcomm, particularly for the PC design part of Intel and maybe the graphics business but probably not the server segment. But such a selling of some of Intel's assets to Qualcomm still leaves the issue of what to do with the foundries. Ultimately if the USA wants foundries on its soil it may just have to accept that bailing out the Intel foundry business is the least worst option.
The entire parts of Intel dealing with CPU, GPU and related things are fine, if not more than that. And they will be fine as well. Worst case scenario they will do something similar like AMD with GlobalFoundries.
Foundries are the problem right now. But last sentence is very-very true so I would suspect these will not go anywhere either.
Posted on Reply
#63
phanbuey
pressing onThe main issue could be whether there is a serious buyer out there for part or all of the Intel business. The only one that comes to mind is Qualcomm, particularly for the PC design part of Intel and maybe the graphics business but probably not the server segment. But such a selling of some of Intel's assets to Qualcomm still leaves the issue of what to do with the foundries. Ultimately if the USA wants foundries on its soil it may just have to accept that bailing out the Intel foundry business is the least worst option.
Or they will have a military contractor buy them out - someone like Northrop Grumman. That's a giant potential moneypit but probably on the table.
Posted on Reply
#64
R0H1T
londisteWorst case scenario they will do something similar like AMD with GlobalFoundries.
I seriously doubt Intel can spin off IFS & still stay afloat, in fact IFS might go under if they spin them off. The comparison with GF isn't very apt as GF was profitable at the time(?) or slightly later. IFS is bleeding lots of money with Intel, with no major (new) customers in sight. I'd go so far as to say that spinning it off right now, or selling Intel (divisions) as parts, would almost certainly trigger the US govt having to bail them out! Or maybe that's the plan?
Posted on Reply
#65
DAPUNISHER
R0H1TI seriously doubt Intel can spin off IFS & still stay afloat, in fact IFS might go under if they spin them off. The comparison with GF isn't very apt as GF was profitable at the time(?) or slightly later. IFS is bleeding lots of money with Intel, with no major (new) customers in sight. I'd go so far as to say that spinning it off right now, or selling Intel (divisions) as parts, would almost certainly trigger the US govt having to bail them out! Or maybe that's the plan?
I don't think the U.S. gov will care where the world HQ is as long as there is a U.S. HQ. Why can't Samsung and TSMC get the money for more fabs here, if Intel fails to deliver?
Posted on Reply
#67
DAPUNISHER
R0H1TProbably but Intel failing will lead to massive job losses, worst case scenario someone from China buys their IP or whatever's left of the scraps.
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/06/30/how-a-british-tech-champion-almost-fell-into-chinas-grasp/?msockid=38bf10cf3c0864fa0e68043d3d9365d2
interesting.

Intel would still be able to operate some fabs because of the DoD contractors correct? I don't think they'd let S. Korea or Taiwan have access to that stuff.
Posted on Reply
#68
RandallFlagg
qcmadnessCan you buy products with Intel 4 anywhere?
But I know we could buy products with TSMC N3 anywhere.
Are people really as dense and bias as you appear to be?

Yes you can buy Intel 4 Meteor Lake virtually anywhere. Wal-Mart even sells them.

Posted on Reply
#69
N/A
Wait, some meteor lakes are already on S1851. from 2024. I guess that was the test vessel. Could be interesting if we can run it on desktop eventually.

20A is the former 5 nm, 18A is 5 nm+, it's a "+" so it only makes sense to use the ""+ from then on like always. But makes you wonder if there's a ++ or 16A, probably not and it goes directly to 14A (3nm).
Posted on Reply
#70
Visible Noise
R0H1TThe comparison with GF isn't very apt as GF was profitable at the time(?) or slightly later
Global Foundries first profitable year was 2022. That’s why the UAE dropped them, they didn’t see a future. Overall from the day AMD spun them off they have lost billions of dollars.

This stuff is easy to look up.
Posted on Reply
#71
R0H1T
You have their results from 2008/09 or so?
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