Thursday, September 5th 2024

Intel 20A Node Cancelled for Foundry Customers, "Arrow Lake" Mainly Manufactured Externally

Intel has announced the cancellation of its 20A node for Foundry customers, as well as shifting majority of Arrow Lake production to external foundries. The tech giant will instead focus its resources on the more advanced 18A node while relying on external partners for Arrow Lake production, likely tapping TSMC or Samsung for their 2 nm nodes. The decision follows Intel's successful release of the 18A Process Design Kit (PDK) 1.0 in July, which garnered positive feedback from the ecosystem, according to the company. Intel reports that the 18A node is already operational, booting operating systems and yielding well, keeping the company on track for a 2025 launch. This early success has enabled Intel to reallocate engineering resources from 20A to 18A sooner than anticipated. As a result, the "Arrow Lake processor family will be built primarily using external partners and packaged by Intel Foundry".

The 20A node, while now cancelled for Arrow Lake, has played a crucial role in Intel's journey towards 18A. It served as a testbed for new techniques, materials, and transistor architectures essential for advancing Moore's Law. The 20A node successfully integrated both RibbonFET gate-all-around transistor architecture and PowerVia backside power delivery for the first time, providing valuable insights that directly informed the development of 18A. Intel's decision to focus on 18A is also driven by economic factors. With the current 18A defect density already at D0 <0.40, the company sees an opportunity to optimize its engineering investments by transitioning now. However, challenges remain, as evidenced by recent reports of Broadcom's disappointment in the 18A node. Despite these hurdles, Intel remains optimistic about the future of its foundry services and the potential of its advanced manufacturing processes. The coming months will be crucial as the company works to demonstrate the capabilities of its 18A node and secure more partners for its foundry business.
Source: Intel
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72 Comments on Intel 20A Node Cancelled for Foundry Customers, "Arrow Lake" Mainly Manufactured Externally

#26
londiste
usinameThe think is that their 7nm (Intel 4) is garbage, it has 120 MTr/mm2, for comparison, their 10nm (intel 7) is 100 MTr/mm2. No wonder it's marginal better than their polished 10nm. Now lets see the TSMC 3nm, that will be used for Arrow and Lunar Lake - 200-220 MTr/mm2 and their mythical 18a won't be more than 160 MTr/mm2, 180 at most and it will be ready for 2026. They will release Arrow Lake in the end of 2024, refresh it with the same TSMC node in 2025 (Arrow Lake refresh) and when they are ready to release whatever is real upgrade over Arrow Lake, it will be in 2026 and how you see them to downgrade from 220 MTr/mm2 to their miserable 160 MTr/mm2? They won't, they will go again for the next TSMC node. Their fabs are so behind, that its no longer cost effective to build their own CPUs here, because this will hurt the performance and the competitiveness
You are comparing different things here. Intel 4 and TSMC N3 are roughly in the same ballpark for high performance cells. TSMC N3 has the high-density variation has the higher density but obviously with performance implications. If they have a problem it is somewhere in manufacturing.
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#27
phints
So is Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake both TSMC N4 like the rest of the top chips use?

Better question is, Arrow Lake when?
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#28
phanbuey
usinameThe think is that their 7nm (Intel 4) is garbage, it has 120 MTr/mm2, for comparison, their 10nm (intel 7) is 100 MTr/mm2. No wonder it's marginal better than their polished 10nm. Now lets see the TSMC 3nm, that will be used for Arrow and Lunar Lake - 200-220 MTr/mm2 and their mythical 18a won't be more than 160 MTr/mm2, 180 at most and it will be ready for 2026. They will release Arrow Lake in the end of 2024, refresh it with the same TSMC node in 2025 (Arrow Lake refresh) and when they are ready to release whatever is real upgrade over Arrow Lake, it will be in 2026 and how you see them to downgrade from 220 MTr/mm2 to their miserable 160 MTr/mm2? They won't, they will go again for the next TSMC node. Their fabs are so behind, that its no longer cost effective to build their own CPUs here, because this will hurt the performance and the competitiveness
Right but I doubt the USA will care to let the last even remotely competitive fab fall over and rely solely on TSMC.

I can see tax breaks and incentives in the future to pump these fabs.
Posted on Reply
#29
Daven
If Arrow Lake is still coming out in a month, then it was always all TSMC. No way you can switch nodes last minute without massive delays.

Arrow Lake P cores on Intel 20A was another lie.
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#30
Eternit
usinameThe think is that their 7nm (Intel 4) is garbage, it has 120 MTr/mm2, for comparison, their 10nm (intel 7) is 100 MTr/mm2. No wonder it's marginal better than their polished 10nm. Now lets see the TSMC 3nm, that will be used for Arrow and Lunar Lake - 200-220 MTr/mm2 and their mythical 18a won't be more than 160 MTr/mm2, 180 at most and it will be ready for 2026. They will release Arrow Lake in the end of 2024, refresh it with the same TSMC node in 2025 (Arrow Lake refresh) and when they are ready to release whatever is real upgrade over Arrow Lake, it will be in 2026 and how you see them to downgrade from 220 MTr/mm2 to their miserable 160 MTr/mm2? They won't, they will go again for the next TSMC node. Their fabs are so behind, that its no longer cost effective to build their own CPUs here, because this will hurt the performance and the competitiveness
Yes. But if manufacturing in their fabs their own chips is not viable and there are not a lot of contracting customers what is the point of spending bilions on the next nodes.
Posted on Reply
#31
remixedcat
EternitIt is not his fault, but shareholders will demand someones head and CEO is natural choice. He hasn't caused these problems, but he was hired to fix Intel and he hasn't.
he's praying on twitter but God hasn't answered his prayers yet. He should have followed God's lead and became a preacher but he's the CEO of a CPU company instead
Posted on Reply
#32
londiste
DavenIf Arrow Lake is still coming out in a month, then it was always all TSMC. No way you can switch nodes last minute without massive delays.

Arrow Lake P cores on Intel 20A was another lie.
Depends on what that "primarily" means. In terms of chiplet count and area it has always been mostly from TSMC. CPU chiplet is quite small as well.
This announcement is from the Foundry group and saying 20A is cancelled for Foundry customers does not necessarily mean Intel themselves does not use it.
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#33
usiname
EternitYes. But if manufacturing in their fabs their own chips is not viable and there are not a lot of contracting customers what is the point of spending bilions on the next nodes.
Its just too late to leave the semiconductor business, I don't think they can leave now with all taxpayers funds, they burned for broken nodes
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#34
TumbleGeorge
usinameIts just too late to leave the semiconductor business, I don't think they can leave now with all taxpayers funds, they burned for broken nodes
They might start making silicone stuff for plastic surgery.:)
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#35
kondamin
rv8000They just stack all the cash the US has been pumping into them and burn it Joker style? I don’t think I’ve heard a single positive thing about Intel’s foundries for quite some time now.
They have been building fabs with that money, those fabs aren't online yet.

it's the main reason I think it's very likely that if sh*t really hits the fan the government will bail them out and in time they will be OK.
(As those fabs without intel it self as the main customer is pointless)
Posted on Reply
#36
N/A
phintsSo is Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake both TSMC N4 like the rest of the top chips use?

Better question is, Arrow Lake when?
N3B and this is the best node for the time being, 56% better than N4 in logic density. SRAM cell on the other hand has reached a wall, not shrinking. N2 is only 16% more dense. A16 another 10%.

Arrow lake just around the corner, but expensive.
Posted on Reply
#37
Daven
londisteDepends on what that "primarily" means. In terms of chiplet count and area it has always been mostly from TSMC. CPU chiplet is quite small as well.
This announcement is from the Foundry group and saying 20A is cancelled for Foundry customers does not necessarily mean Intel themselves does not use it.
The article specifically mentions Arrow Lake on external processes and just packaged by IFS.
Posted on Reply
#38
R0H1T
TumbleGeorgeThey might start making silicone stuff for plastic surgery.:)
Nice pivot in the age of Tiktok :nutkick:
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#39
Eternit
kondaminThey have been building fabs with that money, those fabs aren't online yet.

it's the main reason I think it's very likely that if sh*t really hits the fan the government will bail them out and in time they will be OK.
(As those fabs without intel it self as the main customer is pointless)
So they will be pointless as Intel will be TSMC customer.
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#40
ThomasK
Guess TSMC is running to the bank with Intel's money.
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#41
RandallFlagg
john_It wasn't making much sense to be developing two almost identical nodes at the same time, expect if Intel wasn't sure that 18A will succeed and had 20A as a back up plan. Probably 18A is doing well enough for them to not need to keep throwing money at 20A node.
That's the good scenario.

The bad scenario takes in consideration the fact, Broadcom not being enthusiastic about Intel's manufacturing in it's current phase and also seeing Intel "relying on external partners for Arrow Lake production" instead of moving it to it's own 18A manufacturing node. That probably means that Intel, not just Broadcom, is still unsure about 18A quality or scheduling. Until Intel comes out with a mass producing product at 18A, their manufacturing will continue being a huge question mark, years behind TSMC and even Samsung.
That isn't the way it works, though people who have only looked at node names in a quick and cursory way wouldn't know.

Keep in mind, node names are marketing gimmicks.
www.pcgamesn.com/amd/tsmc-7nm-5nm-and-3nm-are-just-numbers

20A and 18A are essentially the same node, but 18A is mostly a newer set of 'libraries' for development combined with smaller what I would call 'trace' lines. Libraries in this context refers to how components are arranged.

20A and 18A have a similar relationship to each as N3, N3E, N3B have to each other, or a better analogy is probably N5 vs N4.

The same is true of Intel 3 and Intel 4.

Also of note, 20A was specifically just for internal use by Intel. The same is true of Intel 4, it was just for internal designs.

18A and Intel 3 are IFS nodes, meaning for use both internally and externally.
Posted on Reply
#42
tpuuser256
kondaminThey have been building fabs with that money, those fabs aren't online yet.

it's the main reason I think it's very likely that if sh*t really hits the fan the government will bail them out and in time they will be OK.
(As those fabs without intel it self as the main customer is pointless)
If I had 500k free, they would go to INTC
Posted on Reply
#43
qcmadness
londisteYou are comparing different things here. Intel 4 and TSMC N3 are roughly in the same ballpark for high performance cells. TSMC N3 has the high-density variation has the higher density but obviously with performance implications. If they have a problem it is somewhere in manufacturing.
The real difference is one is in very high volume manufacturing and one is on paper.
Posted on Reply
#44
Tek-Check
What would shareholders say to slogan "5 nodes in 4 years" when one of those nodes is cancelled? Another law suit?
Posted on Reply
#45
RandallFlagg
qcmadnessThe real difference is one is in very high volume manufacturing and one is on paper.
Well that's one way you can demonstrate your complete ignorance.

Meteor Lake is using Intel 4.

www.techinsights.com/blog/intel-core-meteor-lake-intel4-io-die-digital-floorplan-analysis

Moreover, Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest are on Intel 3.

www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/intel-launches-144-core-sierra-forrest-xeon-6-cpus-granite-rapids-follows-in-q3


Posted on Reply
#46
Eternit
RandallFlaggWell that's one way you can demonstrate your complete ignorance.

Meteor Lake is using Intel 4.

www.techinsights.com/blog/intel-core-meteor-lake-intel4-io-die-digital-floorplan-analysis

Moreover, Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest are on Intel 3.

www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/intel-launches-144-core-sierra-forrest-xeon-6-cpus-granite-rapids-follows-in-q3


Meteor Lake is not produced in high volumes and it only has compute tile made on Intel 4. Granite Rapids is not produced in high quantities either and while they have large tiles, they run at rather low frequency and there is a lot of versions with more or less cores so they can do binning. The are no other plans to use Intel 4 and 3. I think Meteor Lake will be quickly replaced by Lunar Lake. These nodes will never return what Intel invested in them.
Posted on Reply
#47
Visible Noise
I thought everyone knew 20A is an internal dev node and 18A is the foundry node???
Posted on Reply
#48
R0H1T
Everyone? You mean no one informed Intel :laugh:

Posted on Reply
#50
regs
londisteInteresting. What the hell is Arrow Lake manufactured on then? TSMC N3? N4? :D
Depends on what they mean "primarily" of course. Until now they have said cores chiplet is Intel and 20A.
Highly likely logic die of Arrow Lake will still be, or already, made using Intel 20A process. Press release states - "With this decision, the Arrow Lake processor family will be built primarily using external partners and packaged by Intel Foundry.". It doesn't say entirely. And what it means is that all client and future products will move to 18A.
Posted on Reply
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