But wait, I thought subsidies were bad...

Domestic demand (ecouraged by the government) and government support - sounds pretty familiar.

Yes, we will see that cost savings, right, right? :P

Because communist China has such a wonderful track record of respecting foreign IP. :laugh:

Streisand effect, but for sanctions.

Legacy-ZAYes, we will see that cost savings, right, right? :p

I don't think you'd notice even if there was a 1:1 reduction in retail price. OEMs care because of scale, but to you, what's a few cents off the cost of a $100 gimmick? Now think of a car.

We all knew this was going to happen. China is an industrial powerhouse, and they will find a way to make something. Arguably the political antagonism has only sped up this process.

The west really need to get their hindquarters into gear and invest in actual innovations and industry, before china fully eclipses them in tech.

phanbueyBut wait, I thought subsidies were bad...

Domestic demand (ecouraged by the government) and government support - sounds pretty familiar.

Subsidies without work requirements ARE bad, since they usually end up in the C suite's pockets.

It’s a textbook case of market distortion, and it’s exactly why this strategy ruffles so many feathers. Let’s break it down...

Selling Below BOM: How It Works
When China exports goods, like solar panels, steel, or cheap electronics at prices lower than the BOM, it’s not because they’ve magically slashed production costs beyond what’s physically possible. The BOM includes raw materials (like silicon for chips, steel for frames), labor, and basic overhead. Selling below that means someone’s eating the loss, and in China’s case, it’s the state:

• Subsidies Cover the Gap: Government handouts, direct cash, tax breaks, or dirt-cheap loans; let firms like those in China’s solar industry (JinkoSolar) sell panels at $0.15 per watt when the BOM might be $0.20 or more. The state picks up the tab to keep factories humming and exports flowing.
• Overcapacity: China’s built massive production capacity, think 80% of global solar panel output or 60% of steel, flooding markets with supply. Even without subsidies, this can drive prices below BOM temporarily as firms dump inventory to avoid shutdowns.
• Currency Play: A weaker yuan (still hovering around 7.2 to the dollar in 2025) makes exports cheaper abroad, amplifying the effect, though it’s not the core driver.

Not a "Real" Advantage:

• Tech Gap: Japan’s electronics (e.g., Sony’s OLEDs or Renesas’ chips) often outclass China’s in quality and innovation. China’s edge is scale, not breakthroughs—its tech is often reverse-engineered or incrementally improved, not cutting-edge.
• Efficiency Myth: Chinese labor costs have risen (minimum wages in Shenzhen hit ~$400/month by 2025), and their factories aren’t inherently leaner than Japan’s or Germany’s. Efficiency comes from state-backed overproduction, not organic optimization.
• Loss Leader Strategy: Selling below BOM is like a loss leader in retail; take a hit now to kill competition and own the market later. China’s playing the long game, betting rivals like Japan or U.S. firms can’t survive the price war.

Why It Works (and Annoys Everyone)
This isn’t sustainable in a free market, companies would go bust; but China’s system isn’t free. The state-owned banks and firms can absorb losses indefinitely, aiming to:

• Dominate Markets: In 2025, China controls 90% of rare earth processing and 50% of EV battery production, partly by undercutting BOM prices early on.
• Kill Competitors: Japan’s solar industry (e.g., Sharp) and U.S. steelmakers have withered under this pressure, unable to match prices without similar handouts.
• Boost GDP: Exports at any price pad China’s nominal GDP ($19.53 trillion), dwarfing Japan’s ($4.39 trillion), even if profits are razor-thin or negative.

DenverIt’s a textbook case of market distortion, and it’s exactly why this strategy ruffles so many feathers. Let’s break it down...

Selling Below BOM: How It Works
When China exports goods, like solar panels, steel, or cheap electronics at prices lower than the BOM, it’s not because they’ve magically slashed production costs beyond what’s physically possible. The BOM includes raw materials (like silicon for chips, steel for frames), labor, and basic overhead. Selling below that means someone’s eating the loss, and in China’s case, it’s the state:

• Subsidies Cover the Gap: Government handouts, direct cash, tax breaks, or dirt-cheap loans; let firms like those in China’s solar industry (JinkoSolar) sell panels at $0.15 per watt when the BOM might be $0.20 or more. The state picks up the tab to keep factories humming and exports flowing.
• Overcapacity: China’s built massive production capacity, think 80% of global solar panel output or 60% of steel, flooding markets with supply. Even without subsidies, this can drive prices below BOM temporarily as firms dump inventory to avoid shutdowns.
• Currency Play: A weaker yuan (still hovering around 7.2 to the dollar in 2025) makes exports cheaper abroad, amplifying the effect, though it’s not the core driver.

Not a "Real" Advantage:

• Tech Gap: Japan’s electronics (e.g., Sony’s OLEDs or Renesas’ chips) often outclass China’s in quality and innovation. China’s edge is scale, not breakthroughs—its tech is often reverse-engineered or incrementally improved, not cutting-edge.
• Efficiency Myth: Chinese labor costs have risen (minimum wages in Shenzhen hit ~$400/month by 2025), and their factories aren’t inherently leaner than Japan’s or Germany’s. Efficiency comes from state-backed overproduction, not organic optimization.
• Loss Leader Strategy: Selling below BOM is like a loss leader in retail; take a hit now to kill competition and own the market later. China’s playing the long game, betting rivals like Japan or U.S. firms can’t survive the price war.

Why It Works (and Annoys Everyone)
This isn’t sustainable in a free market, companies would go bust; but China’s system isn’t free. The state-owned banks and firms can absorb losses indefinitely, aiming to:

• Dominate Markets: In 2025, China controls 90% of rare earth processing and 50% of EV battery production, partly by undercutting BOM prices early on.
• Kill Competitors: Japan’s solar industry (e.g., Sharp) and U.S. steelmakers have withered under this pressure, unable to match prices without similar handouts.
• Boost GDP: Exports at any price pad China’s nominal GDP ($19.53 trillion), dwarfing Japan’s ($4.39 trillion), even if profits are razor-thin or negative.

You are right...but the problem is much deeper than you think. Market distortion works only whenever you can produce the inputs to your industry independent of anyone else.

Let me now offer you why this is, personally, funny. China is decades behind the west in materials science. They have historically made up for this by buying western stuff, and then doing assembly and copying. The thing is, they cannot reproduce western materials science...so they may make the most in the world, but they cannot make them without western inputs. As an example, cheap ballpoint pens. China has no issues making the plastic tubes, but consistency in the ink and the metal balls that form the ballpoint are things they have to buy from the west.

Now, is there a parallel in silicon? Yep. ASML. Those crazy dutchmen/women control the lithography tech. China can buy up all of the DUV machines that are on the market...but they need to then buy calibration and consumables. They've got quite a bit out there...but if the same blockages to trade were suddenly expanded to the consumables then China is screwed. Yeah, they managed to produce a 5nm chip using old tech...but nobody discussed the yields (and the on-the-floor truth was nobody seemed to have any real quantity of said chips).

Combine the above, with the west's...less than friendly response to China regularly stealing their IP, and this is shaping up to be a hail-Mary play from the Chinese government to develop some sort of dependency on their crap while they can still suggest that they've got anything worth selling to the masses.



One last little bit. I hope you aren't planning on travelling in a Chinese high speed rail vehicle any time soon. The story there is that to massively expand their share in the market they partnered with western companies, stole their tech, copied it badly, then undercut it and sold it to the world as part of the belt and road initiative. Thing is...trains require wheels. Train wheels for high speed rail need to be very strong, very smooth, and subsequently require very high grade steel. Ultra low oxygen steel is a materials tech...and the companies fabricating these wheels are not exporting their hardware to China anymore because they stole the developing market by using government money to underbid everyone. That means if you're riding on a high speed train now you're likely to notice the rather rough ride...because they cannot source good wheels from the west. Sometimes cheap replicas show why replicas aren't called "better versions." All we need is for one western manufacturer to get greedy and buy up a cheap stock of badly made Chinese chips, to have all of them fail, and demonstrate that "made in China" is synonymous with "corners cut" and we'll have a glut of news pieces that suddenly suggest diversification from Chinese chips is a good thing...instead of them suddenly having a magical lock on the industry.

When will the West learn that we're not the only dogs pissing in the bush, and that cooperation is better than competition? Antagonisation and punishments only lead to a middle finger from the other party. Every. Single. Time.

lilhasselhofferAs an example, cheap ballpoint pens. China has no issues making the plastic tubes, but consistency in the ink and the metal balls that form the ballpoint are things they have to buy from the west.

Wrong.

lilhasselhofferOne last little bit. I hope you aren't planning on travelling in a Chinese high speed rail vehicle any time soon. The story there is that to massively expand their share in the market they partnered with western companies, stole their tech, copied it badly, then undercut it and sold it to the world as part of the belt and road initiative. Thing is...trains require wheels. Train wheels for high speed rail need to be very strong, very smooth, and subsequently require very high grade steel. Ultra low oxygen steel is a materials tech...and the companies fabricating these wheels are not exporting their hardware to China anymore because they stole the developing market by using government money to underbid everyone. That means if you're riding on a high speed train now you're likely to notice the rather rough ride...because they cannot source good wheels from the west. Sometimes cheap replicas show why replicas aren't called "better versions." All we need is for one western manufacturer to get greedy and buy up a cheap stock of badly made Chinese chips, to have all of them fail, and demonstrate that "made in China" is synonymous with "corners cut" and we'll have a glut of news pieces that suddenly suggest diversification from Chinese chips is a good thing...instead of them suddenly having a magical lock on the industry.

Ugh, this lazy bigotry again. Have you ever stopped to look at everything that the PRC has accomplished, despite - supposedly - being incapable of doing anything except copying the West poorly? Literally every problem the PRC has faced in terms of technology, it has ultimately overcome. Why? Because it tries and tries and tries again, regardless of cost, until it eventually succeeds. Why? Because it intends to become the most powerful nation on Earth and understands that fiat currency is simply a means, not an end to that goal.

So keep on laughing, because it's almost certainly the PRC that will have the last laugh on all of us.

AusWolfWhen will the West learn that we're not the only dogs pissing in the bush, and that cooperation is better than competition? Antagonisation and punishments only lead to a middle finger from the other party. Every. Single. Time.

Cooperation has only led to consistent IP theft. When will the West learn that criminals tend to be criminals for a reason, and you shouldnt be associating with them?

AssimilatorUgh, this lazy bigotry again.

The irony here is so think you could run a railroad on it.

AssimilatorHave you ever stopped to look at everything that the PRC has accomplished, despite - supposedly - being incapable of doing anything except copying the West poorly? Literally every problem the PRC has faced in terms of technology, it has ultimately overcome. Why? Because it tries and tries and tries again, regardless of cost, until it eventually succeeds. Why? Because it intends to become the most powerful nation on Earth and understands that fiat currency is simply a means, not an end to that goal.

So keep on laughing, because it's almost certainly the PRC that will have the last laugh on all of us.

You've provided no rebuttal to his point, merely "look at everything the PRC has done". You seem to completely miss that, without IP to steal, those advancements slow down to a snails pace.

Also....the PRC lies. Like, ALL the time. The only country lest trustworthy would be russia. If the PRC claims to have 5nm chips, but with no info on yields or performance, its safe to say those things are atrocious. Sure, the PRC "claims" they have accomplished all these amazing things, and that sounds great, until your tofu dreg collapses and kills thousands or your highway bridge just falls down.

GlobalFoundries continuing to offer 22FDX, 14LPP and 12LP+ nodes:

Apparently, all countries that have, or want to organize, chip production with modern lithographic processes subsidize this policy. In the US, it is called the chips act.

AssimilatorWrong.


Ugh, this lazy bigotry again. Have you ever stopped to look at everything that the PRC has accomplished, despite - supposedly - being incapable of doing anything except copying the West poorly? Literally every problem the PRC has faced in terms of technology, it has ultimately overcome. Why? Because it tries and tries and tries again, regardless of cost, until it eventually succeeds. Why? Because it intends to become the most powerful nation on Earth and understands that fiat currency is simply a means, not an end to that goal.

So keep on laughing, because it's almost certainly the PRC that will have the last laugh on all of us.

It seems like you don't want to continue to read past the PR. 2017 was quite some time ago, and 80% of the market is still imports as of 2023.
China still can't make ballpoint pens

Domestic companies, in China, are not using the solution. It's kinda like it's racist is a westerner points it out, but when the Chinese market tells them that the imports are preferred it's no longer some racist westerner. Of course, you assume the Chinese as a race...while my point is that the system which rewards copying and driving prices down to nothing by stealing tech instead of investing in development is the issue.


How about we play another game. How about, why is Taiwan absolutely great? According to China, they aren't a country...but the chips they manufacture are literally the best in the world. It's almost like they have similar values in pushing for efficiency, but don't base their technology off of stolen and replicated items. What about Vietnam? They're China from prior to the cultural revolution...and they've been a manufacturing hub for decades. No population crisis, no backstabbing partners to resell their developed technologies to the world...and they actually trust their own people to provide goods and services that they'll use.

Likewise, you want to claim it's cultural imperialism about the train wheels. Funny. That's bull, as I live in a country where "high speed rail" is an oxymoron. Japanese companies can do it, and the Germans can do it, but after having their tech stolen they decided to stop supplying their wheels. Why Chinese HSR is failing. Again, you want to pretend it's some superiority...whereas the simple truth is that when you steal and replicate tech without the basic material tech to actually replicate everything you wind up with an inferior copy. That's great at 50 mph...but the reason HSR is amazing is because at 120 mph you don't have things tearing themselves apart.


Let's also pour one out to a few names in China that absolutely took government grants to do that research to push them forward...and when it came time to pay the piper the companies failed to exist. I'd list them...but 20,000+ from 2021-2023 is just silly.
2023 article from Tom's Hardware
2021-2022 article from Tom's Hardware
Thing is, in the same time TSMC has absolutely trucked along and between Apple, Nvidia, AMD, and even Intel cannot reasonably keep up with demand.



So...I absolutely see the Chinese market capturing 28% of sales for stuff from 2014 level tech in 2025. That stuff is basically commodity, and as with most things the Chinese market will cut corners until things fail, selling their value in literally gouging out cost because when you spend nothing to develop it and only have labor into things it's easy to price them at silly levels. It's also the capitalistic greed that sees these inferior clones as the best thing since sliced bread, because a 10% decrease in price is money to the bottom line...until you factor in the cost of QC checks to verify minimum function when your part failure rates goes from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100. But that doesn't matter...you just need to find a market whose tolerance for failure is pegged to cost, because having a 10% failure rate of a good you'd otherwise not be able to afford is tolerable to some.

Ironic then that you bemoan things like Valve needing a pat on the head for banning in-game advertising...but thievery of technology and reliance on outside sources to maintain painfully low profit margins is something that should also be applauded. It's almost like when I look at these things Taiyuan Steel (the Chinese company the Chinese won't buy from), Valve, and the CCP organization which facilitates moving their internal markets forward with large scale contract violation and technology thievery all exist on the same planar level...and their success is entirely indicative of the decisions they make which should necessarily be divorced from childish thoughts of "good" and "bad" outcomes for the consumer.

Maybe next time, don't buy a company PR release without fact checking...because in the US, EU, China, or anywhere else companies claim to be amazing because that's what sells....not reality. Reality tells us that the Chinese "development" that "fixed" their dependence on imports for ballpoints is pretty much a non-starter if 80% of the market is still imports. But whatever, you're free to believe China is magic. I see them as Harbor Freight. If I care about a tool I'll buy an expensive one, if it's a one time use I buy Harbor Freight, because I know that piece of crap will strip bolts despite the included "materials certification" claiming it's high quality...when in fact it's pure Chinesium garbage at a price which is reflective of it.

TheinsanegamerNCooperation has only led to consistent IP theft. When will the West learn that criminals tend to be criminals for a reason, and you shouldnt be associating with them?

Criminals continue being criminals as long as you treat them that way. As far as I remember, everything in IT was fine before the sanctions, and no one tried to copy Intel/AMD/Nvidia, at least not with any success.

AusWolfWhen will the West learn that we're not the only dogs pissing in the bush, and that cooperation is better than competition? Antagonisation and punishments only lead to a middle finger from the other party. Every. Single. Time.

Yeah and just cooperation stance will lead to your shit getting stolen from you, or Russia plonking 80k green men in Crimea.

Carrot and stick is the only viable way to deal with anyone. Cooperation and competition. 'We can have fun together, or we can bash each others' faces in, your choice'.
The real issue is we focused too much on having fun together. And now others start bashing our faces in. Vice versa, the view on the other side of the aisle is that our trade focused paradigm is yet another way to make them capitulate before us, ergo, the supposed cooperation never really works out the way we think it does.

Its human and it will never go away. Its a utopia we all live in harmony. Harmony exists because somebody wields a fearsome hammer somewhere you don't want to get crushed under. Not because we like living it so much. We prefer harmony. But we instigate conflict to win.

Vayra86Yeah and just cooperation stance will lead to your shit getting stolen from you, or Russia plonking 80k green men in Crimea.

Carrot and stick is the only viable way to deal with anyone. Cooperation and competition. 'We can have fun together, or we can bash each others' faces in, your choice'.
The real issue is we focused too much on having fun together. And now others start bashing our faces in. Vice versa, the view on the other side of the aisle is that our trade focused paradigm is yet another way to make them capitulate before us, ergo, the supposed cooperation never really works out the way we think it does.

Its human and it will never go away. Its a utopia we all live in harmony. Harmony exists because somebody wields a fearsome hammer somewhere you don't want to get crushed under. Not because we like living it so much. We prefer harmony. But we instigate conflict to win.

I agree with you, though I wasn't after utopia here. Just before-sanctions conditions. :)

lilhasselhofferChina still can't make ballpoint pens

That article is wholly incorrect. The problem is not that the PRC cannot make sufficiently high-quality ball bearings, it's simply that it's cheaper for them to import those bearings from Japan than it is to produce them locally, so they don't bother producing them locally. This is how globalism works.

lilhasselhofferIronic then that you bemoan things like Valve needing a pat on the head for banning in-game advertising...but thievery of technology and reliance on outside sources to maintain painfully low profit margins is something that should also be applauded.

I didn't bemoan Valve's actions, merely pointed out that claiming they are acting out of altruistic is dishonest, because there is no altruism in capitalism.

As for the PRC's disregard of intellectual property, I don't like it, but then I don't like the bulls**t that is patent law either. The notion that a piece of knowledge can somehow be controlled by a single party, solely because they were the first to register their discovery of said knowledge, is a nonsensical capitalist construct that's an anathema of science and progress.

The comments make me sad. Really, a country with space station and aircraft carriers being taken as "just copying" is just ridiculous.

EasoThe comments make me sad. Really, a country with space station and aircraft carriers being taken as "just copying" is just ridiculous.

And that's exactly why it's lazy bigotry. To quote a saying often misattributed to Gandhi:

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win.

The West is at stage 2 or 3, and the PRC is just following their plan to victory.

AssimilatorThat article is wholly incorrect. The problem is not that the PRC cannot make sufficiently high-quality ball bearings, it's simply that it's cheaper for them to import those bearings from Japan than it is to produce them locally, so they don't bother producing them locally. This is how globalism works.


I didn't bemoan Valve's actions, merely pointed out that claiming they are acting out of altruistic is dishonest, because there is no altruism in capitalism.

As for the PRC's disregard of intellectual property, I don't like it, but then I don't like the bulls**t that is patent law either. The notion that a piece of knowledge can somehow be controlled by a single party, solely because they were the first to register their discovery of said knowledge, is a nonsensical capitalist construct that's an anathema of science and progress.

The ability to produce a thing, but it not being competitive, is the same as not being able to produce it. In your example it'd be viable to say I can manufacture rubies in my basement...because rubies are literally aluminum oxide. Yes, it's at a useless volume. Yes, it doesn't compete with manufacturing them somewhere in any usable amount, but because I say I can it's a win? Can you really tell me that with a straight face? The argument was China cannot produce balls, and the proof is their own manufacturers are saying that their balls suck...to the tune of 4 in 5 produced pens. That's a paper win, with no practical application.

I said Valve doesn't deserve a pat on the head for banning in-game advertisements. You argued until blue in the face that this was a good thing for the consumer, instead of a business decision to not support companies who would not pay them a cut of earnings. You did so with such vigor that I can only laugh knowing now that they did entirely nothing, and an argument that they should be allowed to use a business model if completely up-front with it was entirely ignored...because your distaste meant it was bad...


Let's end on your stupid communist leanings. In communism the good of everyone is benefitted by having all information and technology shared. Cool. What's the track record of communist countries to date? 0. That's collapsed USSR...you know what, I'm not even going there. We live in a society that protects investments into research by patents. Patents are limited monopolies for finite time frames, that allow people to recoup their investments. Likewise, you can sign that technology over for others to use, generally for some returned payment. China, and by that I mean the CCP and not the people, came to the west and signed contracts. In exchange, and in good faith, they were provided with society altering technology. Almost the second they got it, they decided to rip it apart and copy it to then sell to other people without ever having invested a penny into developing it. That's what we like to call a bad partner, who takes legal agreements and wipes their butts with them.
The result is that the west has taken their legal recourse. The CCP was a bunch of dicks, so they cut them off from effectively being able to undercut with tariffs. It's not a permanent solution, but it is a way to stabilize relations until a bad faith actor either goes belly-up or makes the necessary changes to play nice. Our, and by that I mean the west as a whole, historic way of dealing with China has been to think that giving them the benefit of doubt and show how things work great when you work together. Unfortunately, China has openly stated they are at war with the west and they've taken actions to prove it. You're welcome to pretend like that makes them superior...but it has historically meant that a castle built on a sand foundation rather rapidly returns to the sands.


Now...you want to be butt hurt about the west losing to China. I'd agree that inevitably the title of largest in the world will reside in Asia...but I'd also suggest that the only way it gets to China is if the CCP stops existing. Their bad faith actions, regular and open warfare with the west, and frankly speed running all the worst issues with capitalism is not great. I only find solace in that the Chinese people are not their bass-ackwards governance. This is why it's sad to see them work themselves to death for that 28%...knowing that it's another hollow step forward made with three steps backwards. Cool, my smart oven will now be cheaper...but that really sucks for those Chinese people who will functionally be worked to death in order to make it happen.

EasoThe comments make me sad. Really, a country with space station and aircraft carriers being taken as "just copying" is just ridiculous.

Ukraine had the Moskva, before Russia decided to steal it, believing they were entitled to it because they were the inheritors of the USSR.

Two of the three carriers in China are USSR style, and the third entirely made from home grown tech cannot leave port without a tugboat ready to bring it back. Despite this, they claim that they'll beat the US to induction launch aircrafts...using steam boilers, and entirely leap-frogging the development the US had to make to get to electric launch.

Iran has a carrier, that is a modified commercial shipping barge with some drones on the surface.

India on the other hand is in the midst of building a true blue water navy...so it's entirely possible to state "the west does not have a lock on this tech." That said, India developed the tech themselves, or with partnership. No blatant thievery. That's a point that I'd like to make, because it's very likely that the next great superpower is India...and based on their politics and actions it'd probably be the best possible outcome for the world. Anyone smart enough, shrewd enough, and large enough to do what India has done without becoming a pariah is...it shows real progress and a capacity to maybe learn before they get big enough to dictate things.

AssimilatorAs for the PRC's disregard of intellectual property, I don't like it, but then I don't like the bulls**t that is patent law either. The notion that a piece of knowledge can somehow be controlled by a single party, solely because they were the first to register their discovery of said knowledge, is a nonsensical capitalist construct that's an anathema of science and progress.

This a million times!

lilhasselhofferThe ability to produce a thing, but it not being competitive, is the same as not being able to produce it. In your example it'd be viable to say I can manufacture rubies in my basement...because rubies are literally aluminum oxide. Yes, it's at a useless volume. Yes, it doesn't compete with manufacturing them somewhere in any usable amount, but because I say I can it's a win? Can you really tell me that with a straight face? The argument was China cannot produce balls, and the proof is their own manufacturers are saying that their balls suck...to the tune of 4 in 5 produced pens. That's a paper win, with no practical application.

I said Valve doesn't deserve a pat on the head for banning in-game advertisements. You argued until blue in the face that this was a good thing for the consumer, instead of a business decision to not support companies who would not pay them a cut of earnings. You did so with such vigor that I can only laugh knowing now that they did entirely nothing, and an argument that they should be allowed to use a business model if completely up-front with it was entirely ignored...because your distaste meant it was bad...


Let's end on your stupid communist leanings. In communism the good of everyone is benefitted by having all information and technology shared. Cool. What's the track record of communist countries to date? 0. That's collapsed USSR...you know what, I'm not even going there. We live in a society that protects investments into research by patents. Patents are limited monopolies for finite time frames, that allow people to recoup their investments. Likewise, you can sign that technology over for others to use, generally for some returned payment. China, and by that I mean the CCP and not the people, came to the west and signed contracts. In exchange, and in good faith, they were provided with society altering technology. Almost the second they got it, they decided to rip it apart and copy it to then sell to other people without ever having invested a penny into developing it. That's what we like to call a bad partner, who takes legal agreements and wipes their butts with them.
The result is that the west has taken their legal recourse. The CCP was a bunch of dicks, so they cut them off from effectively being able to undercut with tariffs. It's not a permanent solution, but it is a way to stabilize relations until a bad faith actor either goes belly-up or makes the necessary changes to play nice. Our, and by that I mean the west as a whole, historic way of dealing with China has been to think that giving them the benefit of doubt and show how things work great when you work together. Unfortunately, China has openly stated they are at war with the west and they've taken actions to prove it. You're welcome to pretend like that makes them superior...but it has historically meant that a castle built on a sand foundation rather rapidly returns to the sands.


Now...you want to be butt hurt about the west losing to China. I'd agree that inevitably the title of largest in the world will reside in Asia...but I'd also suggest that the only way it gets to China is if the CCP stops existing. Their bad faith actions, regular and open warfare with the west, and frankly speed running all the worst issues with capitalism is not great. I only find solace in that the Chinese people are not their bass-ackwards governance. This is why it's sad to see them work themselves to death for that 28%...knowing that it's another hollow step forward made with three steps backwards. Cool, my smart oven will now be cheaper...but that really sucks for those Chinese people who will functionally be worked to death in order to make it happen.



Ukraine had the Moskva, before Russia decided to steal it, believing they were entitled to it because they were the inheritors of the USSR.

Two of the three carriers in China are USSR style, and the third entirely made from home grown tech cannot leave port without a tugboat ready to bring it back. Despite this, they claim that they'll beat the US to induction launch aircrafts...using steam boilers, and entirely leap-frogging the development the US had to make to get to electric launch.

Iran has a carrier, that is a modified commercial shipping barge with some drones on the surface.

India on the other hand is in the midst of building a true blue water navy...so it's entirely possible to state "the west does not have a lock on this tech." That said, India developed the tech themselves, or with partnership. No blatant thievery. That's a point that I'd like to make, because it's very likely that the next great superpower is India...and based on their politics and actions it'd probably be the best possible outcome for the world. Anyone smart enough, shrewd enough, and large enough to do what India has done without becoming a pariah is...it shows real progress and a capacity to maybe learn before they get big enough to dictate things.

Not everybody who disagrees with capitalism is a communist. And not everyone who acknowledges China's advancements is a supporter of them. The world isn't black and white.

AusWolfThis a million times!


Not everybody who disagrees with capitalism is a communist. And not everyone who acknowledges China's advancements is a supporter of them. The world isn't black and white.

You would be 100% right, if you weren't talking about someone who had spent the better part of a thread about Rockstar railing against the capitalistic systems which created the stupid americans.

My point is that, in this instance, hiding behind the "it's not black or white" shield is like trying to use a colander as your rain protection...because this thread is not created in a vacuum.


If somebody, other than the person who said this, had made the point and not immediately stated China was going to beat the west we'd have something to discuss. If they hadn't quoted a puff piece that was put out by China saying how they were A number 1, while their own people said their crap was not as desirable as imports, then we'd have a discussion. If I was stupid enough to hate on Vietnam or Taiwan, because instead of having an outlook on governance I just really hated asians...presumably because I was a racist, though it might just be perceived cultural superiority, then we'd have a discussion.


Unfortunately, it's none of these. It's someone who has made their opinion clear, is willing to call out the other side, and should in turn be able to justify themselves when their second statement is calling me a racist. Yeah...it's not about me being some backwards racist, it's about me being frustrated with a double dealing bunch of jerks who are using communism as a shield for being weasels, who steal from people they call their enemies. These same people are the ones who made it possible to suddenly have a 28% market share, and 0% of that is on something better than commodity goods, which will kill the market for anybody trying to grow like they were allowed to, because they won't be able to compete without the same extortionate government grants that allow for dumping...which is to simply say that the west is finally waking up to this crap. But cool...now my smart device can be connected to my wifi and use malicious backdoors built directly in the chip to share my data, rather than just getting hacked, to save me a few cents that will likely just get given back to whatever consortium buys up these poisoned apples.

Capitalism sucks because it rewards jerks. That said, I love it. This is the same as loving free speech means you also have to accept Nazis and supremacists...because with all good there must come bad. That said I also think for its flaws, our protected capitalism is the best we can do right now...because while it produces human smears that have spent decades failing upwards, it also occasionally does things like make Yves Guillemot pay for their stupidity. Sometimes that has to be enough...



Alternatively, finish the thought for whom you are speaking for. Making the statement about train wheels was ignorant...and no citations. No thought process. No justification. No source. Just me being a simp for the west. Cool. If the quality of the defense is what determines the quality of the retort you need to break it, then I have to do nothing to counter. Of course, since I already cited sources it's not like I'm even going to be that lazy.

I hope that the trolls go elsewhere to earn their cents from propaganda.

Legacy process nodes, which are usually 16/20/22/24 nm and larger

Laughs in 32nm

The world doesn't need cutting edge 5nm whatever... these "legacy" chips that are getting made on better manufacturing processes than what made the chip my PC runs everyday will do just fine.

lilhasselhofferYou would be 100% right, if you weren't talking about someone who had spent the better part of a thread about Rockstar railing against the capitalistic systems which created the stupid americans.

My point is that, in this instance, hiding behind the "it's not black or white" shield is like trying to use a colander as your rain protection...because this thread is not created in a vacuum.


If somebody, other than the person who said this, had made the point and not immediately stated China was going to beat the west we'd have something to discuss. If they hadn't quoted a puff piece that was put out by China saying how they were A number 1, while their own people said their crap was not as desirable as imports, then we'd have a discussion. If I was stupid enough to hate on Vietnam or Taiwan, because instead of having an outlook on governance I just really hated asians...presumably because I was a racist, though it might just be perceived cultural superiority, then we'd have a discussion.


Unfortunately, it's none of these. It's someone who has made their opinion clear, is willing to call out the other side, and should in turn be able to justify themselves when their second statement is calling me a racist. Yeah...it's not about me being some backwards racist, it's about me being frustrated with a double dealing bunch of jerks who are using communism as a shield for being weasels, who steal from people they call their enemies. These same people are the ones who made it possible to suddenly have a 28% market share, and 0% of that is on something better than commodity goods, which will kill the market for anybody trying to grow like they were allowed to, because they won't be able to compete without the same extortionate government grants that allow for dumping...which is to simply say that the west is finally waking up to this crap. But cool...now my smart device can be connected to my wifi and use malicious backdoors built directly in the chip to share my data, rather than just getting hacked, to save me a few cents that will likely just get given back to whatever consortium buys up these poisoned apples.

You must be seeing some context that I don't. I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I was merely agreeing with one post.

lilhasselhofferCapitalism sucks because it rewards jerks. That said, I love it. This is the same as loving free speech means you also have to accept Nazis and supremacists...because with all good there must come bad. That said I also think for its flaws, our protected capitalism is the best we can do right now...because while it produces human smears that have spent decades failing upwards, it also occasionally does things like make Yves Guillemot pay for their stupidity. Sometimes that has to be enough...

Let's not get started on free speech. I come from a country that had a massive state censorship from WW2 up to 1990, and still suffers its consequences today. It's not nice. I'd much rather choose freedom of speech and put up with the extremes than that shit. I firmly believe that there is no right or wrong opinion as long as no one gets harmed. Opinions don't harm people - actions do.